The Ridgeline's first full month was March of last year. But those percentages I posted are the month on month sales gains, not the YTD.
Essentially, the Pilot got a facelift and new features this year. The Ridgeline is still a fairly new vehicle. This year the MDX got new wood trim and hasn't had a significant update since MY 2004.
I don't think we can blame slow sales on low fuel economy. The MDX has simply gotten long in the tooth.
Those words have been associated for so long with these brands that they've taken on a life of their own. So anytime Honda does something new, automatically it's bland; and anytime Subaru does something new, automatically it's ugly.
Subaru I have never labeled as ugly its just that their new family landmark nose on some of their cars are ugly. Before that the Subies of the late 90's were pretty conservative looking like the Justy for instance. The Subie of the early to mid 00's I would label Subie's of that time "quirky looking" but not ugly like now.
As far as Honda is concerned I have made my opinion known that the exteriors on some of their cars are just way too understated for today;s car market.
"Then how do you explain 22 and 35% gains for the Pilot and Ridgeline?"
The Ridgeline was only up by only 1,000 units I think vs May 2005 figures. Your right about the Pilot though it was up by 3,000 units last month vs May 2005 figures.
I don't get why anybody would buy a Pilot with the gas prices the way they are. I mean doesn't the Ford Expolorer get similar gas mileadge as the Pilot and sales of the Explorer are down. This is not a foriegn or domestic issue either. Its just that I would never buy an SUV. So its more of a car vs truck issue that I have rather than domestic vs import. I am an import fan too.
"I suppose YTD results could have been worse than -6% but the whole Acura line needs rejuvenation."
I think Honda was banking on the current RL sustaining Acura;s sales momuntentum since 1999 but unfortanately the RL hasn't done its job in terms of its sales numbers that Honda had expected for it.
"The MDX and TL are too close to what Honda offers for much less money. Acura needs to offer a real alternative: badge engineering won't work in the long term."
Both the TL and MDX are good in my opinion. The current generation TL has done very good sales wise since its release in September 2003. Scott, what do you want Honda to do give the next generation TL its own seperate platform away from the Accord or what? If Honda gave the TL its own seperate platform the price of the TL would go up for the buyer I think. I also think it would cost Honda itself alot more money to give the TL its own seperate platform away from the Accord in terms of product planning $$$ wise.
Maybe I'm alone in thinking this but... the Pilot is ugly. Ugly as sin. It's virtually a box. And I have never liked the CR-V's styling... nice at the front, but they're kidding themselves if they think a tyre on the back makes it look rugged. It would be so much more attractive without.
I thought the Acura MD-X was attractive. Here it retails for $AUS 80,000. Then, a year after, Ford released its family crossover, the Territory, which looks similar.... at $AUS 40,000. Now I think the MD-X is one of the most boring things around.
Not really, with the new one. If I look then yeah, I can see some shared lines, but I really have to try and I wouldn't have noticed if someone hadn't told me to. It's nowhere on the level of the old Accord/TL/CL, or the Camry/ES (the new ES is a little better too, with at least a different beltline).
In any case, I think the TL looks awesome.
I'm not in love with Honda or Acura's SUV styling. And I really like some of their foreign stuff, like the Euro Civic and the JDM Airwave (small wagon).
Well, you're talking about SUVs, in which Honda has really focused on the "U," which is why the Pilot is boxy, and the spare tire is on the rear door of the CRV.
The boxiness of the Pilot (and CRV) allow for much more room inside than if it were swoopy looking like a Murano. Same with the spare tire on the rear door of the CRV; because of that door-mounted tire, you get a large under the floor storage area. If you get rid of the door-mounted spare you will lose that hidden cargo area. Also, a door-mounted spare is much easier to deal with when you get a flat.
I'll take Honda's intelligent "design" to sexy "styling" any day of the week.
"The Ridgeline was only up by only 1,000 units I think vs May 2005 figures."
True, but it's such a niche vehicle, 1,000 units is a very significant increase.
Anyway, point being that I don't see gas prices hurting Honda or Acura sales. The reasons for the falling sales of some vehicles (Explorer, MDX, etc.) can be explained through other means. In the case of the MDX, it's simply an old vehicle. Old is never good for premium products. The Explorer is also quite old and wears a badge with a failing reputation.
I don't see blanket statements about Honda's styling playing out anymore.
People will say that Honda's cars are bland. Then they'll wonder what drugs Honda stylists were one when they penned the Ridgeline or Element. Depending on your loyalties, the Civic is either freaky or fabulous, and the S2000 is generally admired. Well, that's pretty much half the line-up. If half the line-up is freaky or fabulous, how can their cars be bland?
People will also say that Americans don't buy conservative styling. Okay. Meanwhile vehicles like the Odyssey and Pilot make sales gains. :confuse:
FWIW, I don't see any more resemblance between the Accord and TL than I do between the Element and CR-V. When it comes to building multiple vehicles on the same platform, Honda typically does quite well with distinguishing them in terms of styling. Historically, they've been much better at it than other brands.
"The reasons for the falling sales of some vehicles (Explorer, MDX, etc.) can be explained through other means. In the case of the MDX, it's simply an old vehicle."
I'll agree the reason for the MDX not selling as good as it has been in the pas few years currently is that it is long in the tooth.
"The Explorer is also quite old and wears a badge with a failing reputation."
Wait a second here....the Explorer is not old its new for the 06 model year. As for it(the Explorer) wearing a failing badge that didn't matter 2 years ago when the 02-05 Explorer was still a top 10 seller. Now the Explorer is like down to the Number 15-20 range in terms of best selling vehicles in the US.
Anyway;s I'll have to look up the fuel mileadge figures for the Pilot vs the Explorer but both get very sub-par even if the Pilot does get better gas mileadge than the Explorer.
There's a Honda Corporation family "look" about the Accord and TL, but I wouldn't characterize it as overpowering or even inappropriate.
If anything, it reminds me of how GM in the 1950s made sure that there were visual links between, say, a Chevrolet and an Oldsmobile, but maintained separate identities for both cars.
Chevrolet buyers thought they were getting a car with some styling cues from an upscale marque, while Oldsmobile buyers knew that their car was still "better" (i.e., bigger, better trimmed and more expensive) than a Chevrolet.
The Explorer has one of the better 3rd-row seats, in terms of space and comfort. It's much better than the Pathfinder back there. I"m talking about mid-size SUVs. With the facelift, that rear seat is also (finally!) split too.
Ford did number of other enhancements under the skin too. The IRS has been improved, and it has a 6-speed automatic. I don't care for the new styling though, and I suspect that could also be a reason for the poor sales.
Like the others who posted before this, I thought the Explorer got more of a refresh than a full model change.
Anyway, my only point in bringing up the Pilot and Ridgeline was to disprove the notion that fuel prices are killing sales of all larger vehicles. Other vehicles, like the MDX are more likely suffering from old age, more than poor fuel economy. Whether or not you consider the Explorer another example of the old age problem is up to you. I think it is.
Explorer might just be a victim of high fuel prices. It all runs up to who your customer is. If the vehicle was already a stretch beforehand, it has to go. My guess is Explorer was owned by a lot of those kind of people, perhaps more than other brands. Dramatic increase in the operating costs could have swept the sales.
The Honda corporate look is indeed there in both the Accord and TL. I suppose the degree is in the eye of the beholder.
The GM lineup of the 50s and 60s was different from any platform engineering today. Each brand had their own engines and transmissions up until the mid 70s.
I dunno, maybe I'm in the minority, but I think the Civic and Accord are rounded off and the TL is squared and creased, plus it has that pinstripe running down the side. The TSX is a bit more blocky as well.
The RDX and MDX concept point to a sharp-edged trapezoidal look for Acura, we'll see if that spread to its cars.
In no way to I mean to undermine Hyundai's positive ranking on the IQ, but I think they benefit from low expectations. If I took a chance on a brand not well known for quality and the item performed no worse (and no better) than other brands, I'd probably give it very high marks. Perhaps higher than it deserves because the result was much higher than my expectations.
Of course, once the homeymoon is over and expectations are reset, scores on quality and satisfaction surveys come back down to reality. Witness many of the long term quality surveys.
That said, Nippon is right. People don't see Hyundai as a high-quality manufacturer, yet. Perception lags reality. Scoring below them doesn't do Honda any good.
I have seen reports of people getting loaded V6 LX Sonata's for $18,000. That's unreal. That's less than we would have paid for our EX 5-speed Civic with NAV had we been able to find one. At that price point I'm almost willing to give Hyundai a try.
Heck, the lowest priced V-6s from Honda and Toyota sticker at $24K with plastic wheel covers! That $18K Sonata V-6 has alloys! When you can easily save 25% on the purchase price, there has to be a pretty good reason to pass up the deal. And now Hyundai can point to lots of good press and survey results from the last couple of years and say "See? Our car is every bit as good as those silly Accords and Camrys, statistics and owner surveys prove it! Why waste your money and overpay at the Toyota or Honda store?"
What happens when the new Elantra comes out this summer/fall? Civic is having a bonanza year, but it may not last, especially with the double onslaught of Sentra, then Corolla, coming right after the Elantra. Keeping volume cars like CamCord and CivRolla hot enough to generate the kind of astronomical sales they do is no mean feat.
And BTW, no-one has yet mentioned Acura...why is it that Acura can never even measure up to Honda in these types of surveys? Lexus ALWAYS scores higher than Toyota, ditto Infiniti and Nissan. (in some cases much higher)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
IMO Toyota has truly pulled out all the stops to make Lexus a platinum brand.
Honda has made Acura a somewhat upscale car line. They don't seem to have the goal of producing a line of world beating Acura vehicles.
Toyota has Mercedes, BMW and Cadillac squarely in the cross hairs with Lexus. They are willing to put whatever resources are needed into their vision for the Lexus brand.
However as this GM fan will say that the Acura brand "by far" offers the most Car/SUV for the money. The cars do everthing very well and you don't need to carry a saw when purchasing one. The Lexus buyers bring a chainsaw and a axe to the show room, because they know it's going to cost that much. If your a person looking for value, then name me another car with this much technology that is better than the Acura name ?
You can get a loaded one still under $20k, even without haggling. Heated leather, moonroof, alloys, stability control, 6 air bags, you name it. The one thing glaringly missing is a NAV option.
Thing is, the Accord/Camry may even be 5% or 10% better, but equipped the same way they cost 40% more. Never mind the warranty. You gotta wonder how the Koreans can make a profit at those prices.
Any how, back to Honda, the CR-V will get that underbite after all. The D-pillar continues to be disguised brilliantly. Hope it doesn't look saggy!
"What happens when the new Elantra comes out this summer/fall? Civic is having a bonanza year, but it may not last, especially with the double onslaught of Sentra, then Corolla, coming right after the Elantra. Keeping volume cars like CamCord and CivRolla hot enough to generate the kind of astronomical sales they do is no mean feat."
Why do we have to keep using on using CivRolla or CamCord in the same sentence? As a Honda fan I don;t like Toyota's cars in terms of styling the last few years. Besides Toyota and Honda are competitors not the same company.
Hyundai, might make a decent affordable vehicle today, but it's not nearly as nice as your Honda or Acura cars and don't belong in a comparison in my opinion.
May not be as nice, but if enough people say "I'd rather keep 3/4/5/6 grand and buy Hyundai", or at least seriously consider a possibility of doing so, it becomes a factor - perhaps not in direct comparisons, but at least in general discussion of brand/manufacturer relevance and competition.
Okay faie enough dino. OTOH the Hyundai will depreciate that much because it doesn't garner the same respect so the residuals will make the Honda/Acura choice premium a little easier to swallow.
Comments
Essentially, the Pilot got a facelift and new features this year. The Ridgeline is still a fairly new vehicle. This year the MDX got new wood trim and hasn't had a significant update since MY 2004.
I don't think we can blame slow sales on low fuel economy. The MDX has simply gotten long in the tooth.
You know what PCMCIA stands for?
Poeple Can't Memorize Computer Industry Acronyms.
-juice
2018 430i Gran Coupe
-juice
The RL would be just the ticket if it had a V-8, IMO.
290 HP is enough but others in the price range have +2 cylinders.
Subaru = ugly
Those words have been associated for so long with these brands that they've taken on a life of their own. So anytime Honda does something new, automatically it's bland; and anytime Subaru does something new, automatically it's ugly.
Subaru I have never labeled as ugly its just that their new family landmark nose on some of their cars are ugly. Before that the Subies of the late 90's were pretty conservative looking like the Justy for instance. The Subie of the early to mid 00's I would label Subie's of that time "quirky looking" but not ugly like now.
As far as Honda is concerned I have made my opinion known that the exteriors on some of their cars are just way too understated for today;s car market.
The Ridgeline was only up by only 1,000 units I think vs May 2005 figures. Your right about the Pilot though it was up by 3,000 units last month vs May 2005 figures.
I don't get why anybody would buy a Pilot with the gas prices the way they are. I mean doesn't the Ford Expolorer get similar gas mileadge as the Pilot and sales of the Explorer are down. This is not a foriegn or domestic issue either. Its just that I would never buy an SUV. So its more of a car vs truck issue that I have rather than domestic vs import. I am an import fan too.
I think Honda was banking on the current RL sustaining Acura;s sales momuntentum since 1999 but unfortanately the RL hasn't done its job in terms of its sales numbers that Honda had expected for it.
"The MDX and TL are too close to what Honda offers for much less money. Acura needs to offer a real alternative: badge engineering won't work in the long term."
Both the TL and MDX are good in my opinion. The current generation TL has done very good sales wise since its release in September 2003. Scott, what do you want Honda to do give the next generation TL its own seperate platform away from the Accord or what? If Honda gave the TL its own seperate platform the price of the TL would go up for the buyer I think. I also think it would cost Honda itself alot more money to give the TL its own seperate platform away from the Accord in terms of product planning $$$ wise.
I think that's especially true because it's a US-only model. Hopefully they can change that. Infiniti's going to Europe, FX and all...
To be fair, the Accord is moving upscale so it is harder to keep the difference clear.
The Toyota Coroll and Toyota Matrix illustrate just how different two cars on the same platform can be.
Do you not see a 'family resemblance'?
I thought the Acura MD-X was attractive. Here it retails for $AUS 80,000. Then, a year after, Ford released its family crossover, the Territory, which looks similar.... at $AUS 40,000. Now I think the MD-X is one of the most boring things around.
It's nowhere on the level of the old Accord/TL/CL, or the Camry/ES (the new ES is a little better too, with at least a different beltline).
In any case, I think the TL looks awesome.
I'm not in love with Honda or Acura's SUV styling. And I really like some of their foreign stuff, like the Euro Civic and the JDM Airwave (small wagon).
The boxiness of the Pilot (and CRV) allow for much more room inside than if it were swoopy looking like a Murano. Same with the spare tire on the rear door of the CRV; because of that door-mounted tire, you get a large under the floor storage area. If you get rid of the door-mounted spare you will lose that hidden cargo area. Also, a door-mounted spare is much easier to deal with when you get a flat.
I'll take Honda's intelligent "design" to sexy "styling" any day of the week.
Bob
The interior of the Pilot is very practical.
For potential buyers with children or who carry a lot of stuff the Murano interior is much less roomy than the Pilot.
Subaru has always been quirky with its styling, it's not something new.
-juice
True, but it's such a niche vehicle, 1,000 units is a very significant increase.
Anyway, point being that I don't see gas prices hurting Honda or Acura sales. The reasons for the falling sales of some vehicles (Explorer, MDX, etc.) can be explained through other means. In the case of the MDX, it's simply an old vehicle. Old is never good for premium products. The Explorer is also quite old and wears a badge with a failing reputation.
People will say that Honda's cars are bland. Then they'll wonder what drugs Honda stylists were one when they penned the Ridgeline or Element. Depending on your loyalties, the Civic is either freaky or fabulous, and the S2000 is generally admired. Well, that's pretty much half the line-up. If half the line-up is freaky or fabulous, how can their cars be bland?
People will also say that Americans don't buy conservative styling. Okay. Meanwhile vehicles like the Odyssey and Pilot make sales gains. :confuse:
FWIW, I don't see any more resemblance between the Accord and TL than I do between the Element and CR-V. When it comes to building multiple vehicles on the same platform, Honda typically does quite well with distinguishing them in terms of styling. Historically, they've been much better at it than other brands.
I'll agree the reason for the MDX not selling as good as it has been in the pas few years currently is that it is long in the tooth.
"The Explorer is also quite old and wears a badge with a failing reputation."
Wait a second here....the Explorer is not old its new for the 06 model year. As for it(the Explorer) wearing a failing badge that didn't matter 2 years ago when the 02-05 Explorer was still a top 10 seller. Now the Explorer is like down to the Number 15-20 range in terms of best selling vehicles in the US.
Anyway;s I'll have to look up the fuel mileadge figures for the Pilot vs the Explorer but both get very sub-par even if the Pilot does get better gas mileadge than the Explorer.
If anything, it reminds me of how GM in the 1950s made sure that there were visual links between, say, a Chevrolet and an Oldsmobile, but maintained separate identities for both cars.
Chevrolet buyers thought they were getting a car with some styling cues from an upscale marque, while Oldsmobile buyers knew that their car was still "better" (i.e., bigger, better trimmed and more expensive) than a Chevrolet.
It certainly feels old. I sat in one and then a new Tahoe, and was surprised to see the Tahoe even managed the same gas mileage.
-juice
Ford did number of other enhancements under the skin too. The IRS has been improved, and it has a 6-speed automatic. I don't care for the new styling though, and I suspect that could also be a reason for the poor sales.
Bob
-juice
Bob
Anyway, my only point in bringing up the Pilot and Ridgeline was to disprove the notion that fuel prices are killing sales of all larger vehicles. Other vehicles, like the MDX are more likely suffering from old age, more than poor fuel economy. Whether or not you consider the Explorer another example of the old age problem is up to you. I think it is.
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Gas just ain't the problem, folks.
Just need to follow the breadcrumbs back to the discussion of Honda now and then.
The GM lineup of the 50s and 60s was different from any platform engineering today. Each brand had their own engines and transmissions up until the mid 70s.
The RDX and MDX concept point to a sharp-edged trapezoidal look for Acura, we'll see if that spread to its cars.
-juice
A JD Powers study regarding quality and customer satisfaction ranked Honda #2 behind Lexus.
Honda took 6th, after Porsche, Lexus, Hyundai, Toyota, and Jaguar.
They changed the way they measure quality, again, and I'm not sure I agree with their system much, but it certainly doesn't hurt Honda to do well.
-juice
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
This won't do any harm to Honda's good rep.
-juice
Of course, once the homeymoon is over and expectations are reset, scores on quality and satisfaction surveys come back down to reality. Witness many of the long term quality surveys.
That said, Nippon is right. People don't see Hyundai as a high-quality manufacturer, yet. Perception lags reality. Scoring below them doesn't do Honda any good.
These seem to confirm the earlier spy images.
Bob
What happens when the new Elantra comes out this summer/fall? Civic is having a bonanza year, but it may not last, especially with the double onslaught of Sentra, then Corolla, coming right after the Elantra. Keeping volume cars like CamCord and CivRolla hot enough to generate the kind of astronomical sales they do is no mean feat.
And BTW, no-one has yet mentioned Acura...why is it that Acura can never even measure up to Honda in these types of surveys? Lexus ALWAYS scores higher than Toyota, ditto Infiniti and Nissan. (in some cases much higher)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Honda has made Acura a somewhat upscale car line. They don't seem to have the goal of producing a line of world beating Acura vehicles.
Toyota has Mercedes, BMW and Cadillac squarely in the cross hairs with Lexus. They are willing to put whatever resources are needed into their vision for the Lexus brand.
"by far" offers the most Car/SUV for the money. The cars do everthing very well and you don't need to carry a saw when purchasing one.
Rocky
Thing is, the Accord/Camry may even be 5% or 10% better, but equipped the same way they cost 40% more. Never mind the warranty. You gotta wonder how the Koreans can make a profit at those prices.
Any how, back to Honda, the CR-V will get that underbite after all. The D-pillar continues to be disguised brilliantly. Hope it doesn't look saggy!
-juice
Why do we have to keep using on using CivRolla or CamCord in the same sentence? As a Honda fan I don;t like Toyota's cars in terms of styling the last few years. Besides Toyota and Honda are competitors not the same company.
I think they're used in that fashion since their cars in that segment are really the benchmark, and have been for some time.
In a derogetory sense.. yes, they're kind of similarly bland.
Uh-oh, let's not re-open that can o' worms. :surprise:
-juice
Rocky
2018 430i Gran Coupe
Rocky
When you factor in the incentives and the warranty, it makes a compelling choice. Prices are not close.
Look at it from another angle, you can get a loaded-to-the-gills Sonata V6 for the price of a 4 banger Accord EX sans NAV. Less, even.
The caveat is resale values. You'll probably recover half the difference in 3-4 years or so.
-juice
-juice