Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/25 for details.
Options

Has Honda's run - run out?

24567153

Comments

  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    yeah the Town hall used to be a little more uh, free spirited than these days. That's for sure.

    I had an 1984 Honda Accord with an auto tranny and it never had any transmission problems, even late in its life.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    I'll agree that Honda has a styling problem, but many manufacturers do at this point. I think everyone's fumbling around in the dark trying to find the next "big thing" in automotive styling.

    However, I think they do have another issue and that is handling. I was really dissapointed when I drove the 2001 Civic and how poorly it handled and drove (in my opinion) compared to previous Civics I had tooled around end. Really was a down grade from the previous version. Honda seems to be moving to the Toyota and GM school of handling more and more every year. Luckily Acura still has the TSX and the RSX (which should still be called an Integra darn it!) Just don't think the newer Honda's are near as fun to drive as the early-to-mid 90's Hondas on back.

    Just my opinion though. And no, I don't think they're on the ropes or anything. Just a crossroads.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Well I haven't really driven one, other than Dad's new TL, in about two years I think. That TL is remarkable especially for a WWD. My last Civic ownership experience was '92 I think. A DX. Mighty skinny, tall rubber on that one, so handling wasn't a forte.

    Frankly, even though I'm style bashing, I admit to really liking the Si. That's a hip little car. I just think it's outclassed by similarly priced competition; it's not a great value for what it does, IMO. But the look is terrific.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    well I like hatches so I have no problems with the Si's styling. But you're right, it wasn't up to the competition, especially for its initial, before the discount, price.

    Although I have to admit to not liking the way the shifter is setup in the Si. Not that it is hard to use, just that it looks.....well.....wrong.......Not that there's anything wrong with that ;-)
  • newcar31newcar31 Member Posts: 3,711
    "Just don't think the newer Honda's are near as fun to drive as the early-to-mid 90's Hondas on back."

    Exactly...and they don't look as good anymore either. My 92' Integra GS-R was a much better car than my brother's 2002 Civic EX, and it shouldn't be because the design is 10 years older. Both of my brother's Accords, an 89' and a 91' were also much better than his new Civic.

    and the new Si? It looks like a Pokemon character from a Nintendo game, and the shifter is just plain goofy, even if it does work good.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    I just don't see the styling problems some of you are mentioning with the Hondas. The Civic coupe is a beautiful car, and the new Accord coupe is absolutely gorgous! The only Honda I think has a problem with styling is the Element. That is to say it has none. It's literally a box on wheels. If you want to talk about styling issues, we should talk about Toyota and Hyundai. Toyota has suffered from a lack of style for years, and their new cars are no less bland. Hyundai's styling can be described in one word......cheesy.
  • driftracerdriftracer Member Posts: 2,448
    people contact the firm with dash rattles, hoping for a lemon law buyback! I assure you, especially given the (I'll tread lightly here) ill-tempered, overly picky and conflict-enjoying people in my area, if they had a problem, I'd probably hear about it.

    By the way - lemon law may be restricted on mileage and time, but complaints under Mag-Moss aren't because of the "implied warranty of merchantibity". There is case law in place that has assured consumer vistory in many cases where the vehicle was between 36,000 and 100,000 (or more) miles.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Those early '90s Civics had fully independent suspensions. The new ones use MacPhearson struts. Thats basically what happened. Most of the die hard Civic fans were not happy. I've never owned a Civic in my life, so I dont really have any feelings about it one way or the other.

    Saugatak, I agree, the market right now is unbelievably cut throat, kill or be killed situation. I dont expect Toyota to have any problems grabbing their goal of 15% of the market. Ford still doesnt seem to understand what makes a good sedan, and neither does Chevy. Chrysler has possibilities. The 300 is way too big and blocky for my tastes, but if they were to use C-class underpinnings rather than E and make a smaller, more attractive car, they could do some real damage to the other two, who are still limping along with 3.0Ls from the Queen Victoria era.

    Honda Im sure will be fine. Their sales are up this year, despite a decline in net profit from negative exchange rates. The Pilot is a million times better than the Passport. The Oddysey despite dating back to '99 is still largely competitive with the newly redesigned models from Nissan and Toyota, and blows away supposedly "new" minivans from Ford and GM which are the old minivans with a new face. Booo. Personally I'm not a huge fan of the styling of the new Accord, but I do like that Honda was willing to take a chance, as they were extremely conservative before that, and there must be some people that like the new Accord, as I see just as many (if not more) new ones on the road than Camry. Also, with the new direction that Acura is going in, I could see them easily doubling their sales, picking up disgruntled Euro buyers sick of snotty Audi and BMW dealers.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    really does bring the Fit/Jazz here, I think they may have a hard time selling them, only because in the world of subcompacts, it is all about price, price, price. Will they be able to sell them anywhere near the price of Aveos, Accents, and Rios?

    You could take the example of the Mini as a subcompact that doesn't need to sell on price, but of course, the new tiny Honda will have to sell cheaper than Civics to really be viable, which puts a cap of about $12K on the base price of the Fit when it arrives. Whereas Mini has no other models besides the Cooper. Besides which, the Mini is selling at least as much on cuteness and (dubious) heritage as anything else.

    I still hope Honda brings the Fit here - I am a fan of cars of that sort, but I think they will need an aggressive strategy for selling them.

    And I maintain that the SUT is going to be a slow seller. The only good thing about it is that since it is basically a chopped-back Pilot, the cost for Honda to develop and build it will be minimal.

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    I know the loss of multi-link up front to struts may have rankled Civic fans, but BMW uses the same strut config in the 3-series, so I don't think that's the reason for a handling deficit.

    The decontenting has been alarming, though, that's very, very true.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    with the latest Civic you're right, it wasn't the technology employed, it was just a really sloppily setup suspension. More befitting a Buick Skylark than a Civic. (Although I heard they made some changes since the last year I drove of the Civic to help address the problems. Particularly with the rear suspension if I remember correctly).
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    That makes sense, Kev.

    Hiccups I say. Hiccups.
    ;)
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    Honda was on a roll in the 90's. In the 80's Honda was laying down the groundwork in the 80's for what damage they were going to do in the 90's.

    As far as the Civic Coupe the back end and front end exteriors don't even match on the 04.

    As far as Honda's it used to be Acura in the mid to late 90's that used to have the styling problems now its Honda. I wish Honda could hit on both Acura and Honda styling all at the same time.

    As far as the Accord's styling is concerned I have bashed Honda alot on these boards about that, Past Accords weren't conservative looking to me at all. To the Domestic Big 3 buyer yeah past Accords maybe look on the conservative side but the Accord is made is for an audience that likes Japanese Cars not Domestic Big 3 cars. Of course with the 03 Accord that audience that likes Japanese Cars has been left out in the cold a little bit. To me the with the 03 Accord the Accord got American-ized on the exterior.

    Laastly on the current CIvic SI I don't like exterior styling either. The last Civic SI(2000 model I believe) is a classic.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Where styling doesnt lie at one end of the extreme (Aztec-ugly) or the other (original SC gorgeous), its a moot point, and doesnt heavily influence sales. Its subjective. Not objective, and really not open for debate. None of Hondas 4Q loss can be attributed to styling, so who cares? The topic of this forum isnt Honda's Styling issues (though there are forums as such for Lexus and others). The topic is "Has Honda's Run- run Out"

    ~alpha
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Styling, that is. Anytime honda makes a change, there are those who love or hate the changes.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    Of course it does. Remember Mazda and Nissan's misfortunes in the mid to late 90's it was caused by styling issues. Of course Mazda's decling sales of that were caused by Ford AT's in the mid 90's 626's as well. Honda for a long time was hit-hit on the styling and could not miss all through the 80's and 90's. Yes styling does influences sales alot. The new Altima and Mazda 6 are selling pretty well. Why? because they are attractive looking cars. Why is the new Acura TL selling well? because it a great looking car.

    In that article where Honda posted their 4th quarter numbers they said sales for the Accord and Civic were on the decline.

    I do agree styling is subjective though.

    Ok no more subjects about styling since thats a different topic.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Member Posts: 1,982
    Oh, c'mon y'all.

    Yeah styling's subjective, but this is a discussion of what might or might not be wanting in Honda's current fortunes and styling is of course a part of the subject matter.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    "Remember Mazda and Nissan's misfortunes in the mid to late 90's it was caused by styling issues"

    yeah, that and uninspiring, run-of-the-mill cars, LOL!

    Question is, are Honda's current cars too run of the mill?

    Maybe they need a new model in the line to compete with sporty models like WRX and SRT-4. Something with a lot more oomph than any of the Civics, more than two doors, and really good styling.

    Oh yeah, and bring back the Accord wagon! :-)

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Maybe they just need to offer a few more performance options. For example, a Civic coupe (not an Si) with let's say a 200 HP engine would be nice. Also, the 270 HP Acura TL engine in the Accord would be a nice option as well. These are just a couple of ideas.
  • jprybajpryba Member Posts: 201
    I believe an earlier post in this discussion said they will believe Hyundai's quality has improved once they see reliability stats that go back at least 3 years. Well, if you check out the latest Consumer Reports auto issue, they have ratings for the Elantra that go back 5 years. The verdict? Average reliability for 99-01 models, and above average reliability for the 02 and 03.

    Of course, the Civic's rating is much higher, but I would say Hyundai is doing an acceptable job. Right now I think it's safe to say their cars are somewhere between American and Japanese in terms of quality and reliability. That might be enough for a certain group of people to purchase a Korean car instead of a Japanese model (although this can't account for all of the drop in sales that Honda has had, of course).

    Yes, I have an Elantra, and yes, I've had some issues with it (mainly with the brakes, tires, and a few trim pieces). Why did I choose it over a Civic? Well, I couldn't afford $16K for a Civic with ABS (although I guess Honda is going to offer ABS in almost all their cars in a few years). I looked into some used Civics, but for the same price I was able to buy that new Elantra.

    I'm sure Honda will do just fine in the long run. As mentioned in some other posts, they have more engineers in charge than bean counters. They just need to put some of the "old" Honda magic back into their cars to distinguish themselves from the American and Korean automakers who have catching up, that's all ; )
  • hondaguyhondaguy Member Posts: 4
    I've owned 3 accords, a '90, '97 and just picked up a 2004 3 weeks ago, all 4 cyl automatics. They have all been great cars, are all still in the family, the '90 has 190,000 miles on original engine and tranny, burns zero oil and still gets 22 mpg in the city. The '97 is coming up on 100k. The '97 was an improvement in handling over the '90 altho I have to admit I thought the '90 was superior design-wise. We love the new one, it's superior in every way to the previous generation models and the 2.4 liter engine is the best 4 cyl ever made in my humble opinion.This car has got power to spare and is the quietest running accord of the 3 we've had. A winner. Style is always subjective or, as the old saying goes, 'There's no accounting for peoples' taste.'
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    The majority of people love the styling of the Accords. As with anything, there will ALWAYS be some that do not.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    Honda was worried a couple of years ago why sales of the Civic weren't doing as well as the previous generation Civic did. Now Accord sales are on the decline. I know Honda does not discount their cars alot but they have to be a little worried about how the current generation Accord and Civic are selling. The Accord is still best in its class but competitors have made alot of gains in the mid-size market. The next generation Civic must be good but the current one isn't cutting it. Its still a good car but the interior looks de-conted from last generation and the removal of the double wishbone suspension some Honda enthusiasts were not happy about. Honda got lucky that the current generation Ford Focus was re-called prone. I don't think Honda will get a break like that again.
  • isellhondasisellhondas Member Posts: 20,342
    Somehow, I've never thought of any Ford as real competition but I could be wrong I guess.

    I cringe when I see someone who wants to trade their Focus in because of the dismal resale values. Like Taurus, they flop at the auctions.

    I do know Ford sometimes approves auto loans on people so bad I can't believe it.

    The loss of the double wishbones didn't really hurt the handling of the Civics either but anytime something go's away I know the perception is that something was lost as a result.

    As far as not "cutting it"..I don't know, we still sell a lot of them. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the re-design.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    "Somehow, I've never thought of any Ford as real competition but I could be wrong I guess."

    Yep, you are. At least with me it was. Civic lost out to the Focus with me. Not the only person I know that made the same choice as well.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    and I guess that would be part of the current Civic's problem. If you want a good handling economy car (previously the Civic's domain) you've got the Focus and Mazda 3 which beat it in spades in the handling catagory.

    "But those cars are unreliable pieces of junk!" some biased ones will say. Well then the reliability reputation in this class is still held by the Corolla, and it has a much nicer interior to boot.

    The Civic doesn't really stand out in styling, although the refresh of it helped the coupe out in my opinion. So the styling angle can be filled by other cars as well.

    The Civic doesn't hold it over the other cars on price either. Tends to be more expensive than the most of the class.

    Also, the Civic isn't available in 5-door hatch or wagon styles (although much of the rest of the class isn't either), but one more section of the small car market it isn't filling.

    And, to top it off, the premier Civic Si was rolled out way over priced and out classed by competitors.

    All this sounds like I might hate the current Civic, but I don't. It just doesn't stand out in this market and doesn't do anything really well. Just kind of "average" all around. Luckily it still has the "Honda Civic" badge or sales would be much worse in my opinion.
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    yeah, seminole, imagine if they had renamed the Civic for '01! Then it wouldn't even have the badge! :-0

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    but you are right about the Taurus. It is seriously out classed by the Accord. Night and day between those two!
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Honda makes those cars already. Unfortunately, for whatever reason, they have decided that North Americans dont want them. Civic Type R, Accord Euro R, RSX Type R, NSX Type Zero, we get none of them.

    The Taurus is outclassed by everything. It's like the Impala, these are cars that should've been replaced ten years ago. Like I said, Ford and Chevy still dont understand how to be competitive in cars, and their strangle hold on trucks wont last forever.

    It wasnt really the styling that held Mazda and Nissan back, their cars were bland and boring. Mazda lost the RX, nissan lost the 300ZX. The best they had was Millenia and Maxima, neither of which were as good as the competition. Like one of the previous posters said, the first generation Lexus SC was a gorgeous car, and yet after a few years, sales were a few thousand per year.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    The Civic still does one thing extremely well.....something it's it's always done well.....it still maintains a level of refinement that's never been matched by any of its competitors.
  • tomcat630tomcat630 Member Posts: 854
    "The Civic coupe is a beautiful car, and the new Accord coupe is absolutely gorgous!"

    Maybe, but they aren't selling well, neither are most coupes in general.

    Accord sales are way behind Camry, and the Odyssy dropped too, what happened? They are supposed to be "unstoppable".

    Their SUV's are selling well, but don't tell that to the Seirra Club, who seem to think all Hondas are electric powered Civics, the size of the 1974 model.

    Also, "cool Dads" won't drive a FWD pickup truck.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    The coupe market has always been like that. Most coupes tend to have an effective shelf life of 2-4 years. Only Mercedes seems to have nailed the formula with the CLK, which has always been strong. The Oddysey is due for a redesign. Nissan and Toyota have brand new vans for '04, and the domestics will face lift theirs for '05, so Honda kind of needs to get on that. Their truck wouldnt be FWD. It seems like even Honda has realized that FWD isnt cool anymore.
  • nornenorne Member Posts: 136
    "The Civic coupe is a beautiful car, and the new Accord coupe is absolutely gorgous!"

    Yeah the new accord coupe is about as gorgeous as the ugly new nissan quest.
  • talon95talon95 Member Posts: 1,110
    "The Oddysey is due for a redesign. Nissan and Toyota have brand new vans for '04, and the domestics will face lift theirs for '05, so Honda kind of needs to get on that."

    Honda is very much "on that"... the '05 Odyssey will be a complete redesign.
  • talon95talon95 Member Posts: 1,110
    Since styling keeps coming up as a perceived issue for the Accord for some people, the results of a survey that addresses styling provide an interesting counterpoint to those opinions.

    Based on JD Power's Apeal survey, it seems that styling isn't a real problem for the Accord. For the 2003 model year, the Accord was rated 3 out of 5. The only major competitor that was ranked higher in styling was the Mazda 6 (rated 4 out of 5). Competitors like Nissan Altima and VW Passat, cars which are often held up as examples of attractive styling when someone claims that the Accord is unattractive, got the same ranking as the Accord. Others like Camry, Galant, Saturn L series and Legacy were ranked lower in styling (rated 2 out of 5).

    So despite the passionate dislike for the Accord's styling exhibited by some posters here, it seems that when you check with a larger cross section of the population than is represented in these forums, they consider the Accord's styling to be as attractive as or more attractive than most of its competition.
  • lexusguylexusguy Member Posts: 6,419
    Eww. That car is such an ugly flop. I'm glad that their dropping it. I wish GM would just drop Saturn.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    When you say "the majority of the people love styling of the new Accords," are you talking about the general population, or the people who shop at your dealership? I would imagine that people visiting your dealership have put the Accord on their shopping list, which means that the styling is either a plus factor or doesn't matter to them. The car is popular enough that prospective buyers don't need to visit a dealership to see what one looks like.

    I'm not knocking the Accord - I own a 2003 EX sedan - but styling of this generation does seem to be more polarizing than that of previous generations. And sales are down this year, which is unusual for a Honda in its second year on the market.

    lexusguy: As for Ford and Chevy not "knowing how to be competitive in cars" - they know, but they don't want to do what it takes to stay in the game. They can't leave a design on the market with only minor changes for 7-10 years.

    The sad part is that the original 1986 Taurus set the template for this class of car, even with its reliability problems. Unfortunately, as Honda and Toyota introduced larger, more refined versions of the Accord and Camry, Ford let the Taurus sit for too long, not bringing out an all-new model until 1996. The current Taurus - which was a big jump in quality from the first-generation version - should have been replaced around 2000 or 2001.
  • bottgersbottgers Member Posts: 2,030
    Let me guess, you probably think the Element is a nice looking vehicle.
  • carguy58carguy58 Member Posts: 2,303
    its an alright looking car but I don't think its styled as good as the 98-02 Coupe was. I hope Honda goes back to something like the 98-02 Accord Coupe styling with the next generation Accord Coupe.

    Honda had the look of the Accord Sedan down pat with the mid 90's and late 90's Accord. Those were great looking cars.

    What upsets even more is Honda put the Acura TSX out which looks like your classic Honda product and they charge 5-7 grand more than a 4 cylinder Accord LX for that. As a Honda fan that upsets me a little bit. The TSX looks more youthful in style than the Accord sedan does.
  • talon95talon95 Member Posts: 1,110
    "When you say "the majority of the people love styling of the new Accords," are you talking about the general population, or the people who shop at your dealership?"

    Well, given the results of the Apeal survey that I just posted, the fact that those surveyed gave the Accord's styling the same ranking as the Altima and Passat, and ranked it higher than the Camry seems to support isell's statement.

    Although some people on this forum express a passionate distaste for the current Accord's styling, the survey shows that most people don't share that distaste.
  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    Those would be "non-car-people". People like us who post here, are "car-guys or gals", and most of us don't care for the Accord styling, which at its best, was invisible, and currently, is repulsive, IMO. But there are plenty of folks out there who like their Maytag too, and think it's gorgeous........
  • talon95talon95 Member Posts: 1,110
    "Those would be "non-car-people"."

    That's nothing more than speculation. You don't know that. Nor do you know that "most of us" car-guys and gals don't care for the styling. Statements like that which are based on simple observations in a forum such as this are hardly conclusive. The only thing we do know is that some people really dislike it and feel compelled to repeat that opinion with nearly every post.

    As for the Maytag comment, I haven't heard any people being passionate about the styling of their washing machine. Especially given that with the exception of some newer high-end models that have been given a unique look, a Maytag looks like a Kenmore which looks like a Whirlpool, etc.
  • seminole_kevseminole_kev Member Posts: 1,696
    if you don't think styling is important, even in the "middle class" mid size sedan segment, go ask Ford how that restyle went when they switched over to their new "fish faced" Taurus a few years back.

    The car was better than its predecessor, which was a best seller, but the styling drove a ton of potential buyers away.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    But who is JD Powers asking when it conducts the Appeal Survey? Is it people who bought those cars? Or the general population? If the survey asks owners, I would imagine that they like the styling of their vehicles. That's like asking a new bride if she thinks her husband is a great guy. One hopes the answer is "yes."

    Regarding those cars that didn't fare as well - the Galant and L-Series sell more on price. I would imagine that buyers were willing to overlook the styling to pay less. The Legacy sells on AWD, while Camry sells on its reputation. What the Appeal Survey tells me is that the Galant, L-Series, Legacy and Camry sold DESPITE their styling, for a variety of reasons. All of those but the Camry are second-string players.

    Toyota in general reminds me of Chevy during the 1950s and 1960s. Even when one model wasn't quite as attractive as before (i.e., the 1959 "batwing" Chevy), loyal owners stuck with the marque because of positive past experiences, a reputation for quality and strong resale value.

    Maybe satisfied Honda owners (such as myself) like the styling of the Accord, but the declining sales figures for the 2004 model tell me that something is not quite right. Maybe the styling isn't the culprit, but all other aspects of the car have received excellent reviews.
  • talon95talon95 Member Posts: 1,110
    In answer to your question about the survey, yes, they do ask new owners.

    "If the survey asks owners, I would imagine that they like the styling of their vehicles. That's like asking a new bride if she thinks her husband is a great guy. One hopes the answer is "yes."

    But you contradict this position when you state later on that some people are willing to overlook the styling in favor of other characteristics of the car. If that's true, why do you assume that this applies only to Camrys, Galants and Saturn L series, and that Accord buyers MUST have liked the car's styling in order to buy it? It seems to me that this assumption isn't necessarily valid. The Accord has many other well known attractive characteristics (reputation for reliability, high tech, bang for the buck, great interior, balanced performance) that could easily attract someone who wasn't really high on the styling. You say that the Camry sells largely on reputation, even though it seems that owners don't rate its styling all that high. Well, I contend that its reputation is one of the Accord's biggest selling points as well, and based on this survey, even if they bought the Accord primarily for its other appealing features, most of the owners seem satisfied with the styling as well.

    That can even apply to your bride analogy... if her new husband is kind, has a great personality, is a wonderful lover, has lots of money, a great job, high social status, etc., she may not have married him because he was the best looking guy around.

    So I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the results of this survey as a given. By your own arguments, you suggest that this isn't necessarily so.
  • badtoybadtoy Member Posts: 343
    (And thank God, or a lot of us would be very lonely indeed!) =D

    I think the concept of Appeal studies has tremendous validity, because we don't all have the same criteria when choosing a car. To the extent that these studies have a good data base and are accurately described and conducted, I think they're great. That's why I read both Consumer Reports and Car and Driver -- one has information on reliability and projected maintenance costs, the other driving impressions. Both are useful, and of the two, the more useful by far is the maintenance information because no one I know buys a car without driving it first -- so who cares what Car and Driver thinks about it?
  • nippononlynippononly Member Posts: 12,555
    Honda having such a great reputation, I imagine it might have a hard time on Apeal surveys too, because you have much higher expectations of your new car when you bought it for quality than when you bought it for price (no marriage analogy works here!). :-P

    2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)

  • nvbankernvbanker Member Posts: 7,239
    All very interesting, but they aren't selling very well.
  • grbeckgrbeck Member Posts: 2,358
    talon95: First, I don't want to get into a heated argument with a fellow Honda fancier.

    What I am saying is that it's dangerous take a survey conducted solely among people who bought a particular car and then extrapolate the results about something very subjective - in this case, styling - to the general population. As I understand your argument, the Accord's styling is rated well among people who bought the car; therefore, the general public likes its styling as well. That, in my opinion, is a shaky jump at best.

    I'm sure that a fair number of people who bought AMC Pacers liked the styling - but, as history has shown, that opinion wasn't shared by the general population.

    I'm glad that people who bought the Accord like the styling. I'm one of them. But it is not accurate to state that the JD Powers Survey results prove that the Accord is attractive, or that the general public likes the car's styling. This was the point that was originally being made when the JD Powers Survey results were first mentioned.

    All that the survey proves is that most people who bought the Accord liked its looks. With sales down for 2004, it's safe to ask whether the general public shares our opinion of the Accord's styling.

    talon95: "But you contradict this position when you state later on that some people are willing to overlook the styling in favor of other characteristics of the car."

    I'm saying that people buy different cars for different reasons. That is the point I was making.

    talon95: "You say that the Camry sells largely on reputation, even though it seems that owners don't rate its styling all that high."

    Reputation and styling are two entirely different attributes. It's entirely plausible that a car can have less-than-stellar styling but a great reputation. I would argue that the Camry fits this description perfectly. The 1959 Chevrolet is an earlier example of this phenomenon.

    talon95: "Well, I contend that its reputation is one of the Accord's biggest selling points as well, and based on this survey, even if they bought the Accord primarily for its other appealing features, most of the owners seem satisfied with the styling as well."

    I don't doubt that most of the owners are satisfied with the styling. The big question for Honda is whether the public as a whole finds it attractive, or if the styling is turning off people and steering them to the Mazda, Nissan or Acura store.

    talon95: "That can even apply to your bride analogy... if her new husband is kind, has a great personality, is a wonderful lover, has lots of money, a great job, high social status, etc., she may not have married him because he was the best looking guy around."

    I said she thought he was a "great guy," not a "great-looking guy." (Women, by and large, tend to be less concerned about looks than other qualities.) If you ask her if he is a great guy after she marries him, of course she will say "yes." Why wouldn't she?

    Applying that argument to new car styling - it is the same with MOST new car buyers. Yes, most of them will like the styling of their new vehicle - why would they buy it in the first place?

    But, for some new car buyers, there are other overriding attributes (rock-bottom price, availability of AWD, good past experience) that can trump less-than-stellar looks and get them to buy a particular model. I would argue that the Galant, L-Series, Legacy and Camry each fit into one of those three exceptions. That is why owners can give those vehicles lower ratings for styling even after purchasing them.

    The Accord is not selling as well in its second year. This is unusual for a Honda model. We need to explore ALL possible reasons - including a possible dislike among the general public for its styling - for this downturn. The JD Powers Appeal Survey does not prove that the car's styling is attractive to the public as a whole. The price didn't rise with this generation. I have not heard of any major quality problems. Road test results from several sources have given the car top-notch ratings in other categories. Given these factors, it makes sense to look at the styling first. That is all I'm saying.

    I don't want Honda - or Honda fans - to develop the circle-the-wagon mentality that has decimated Detroit for so many decades.
  • iluvgmproductsiluvgmproducts Member Posts: 2
    Hondas have also had trouble selling because they make the most Un-aesthetic (ugly) cars on the road. Look at the new Pontiac G6 and you'll see my point.
This discussion has been closed.