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Has Honda's run - run out?
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I had an 1984 Honda Accord with an auto tranny and it never had any transmission problems, even late in its life.
However, I think they do have another issue and that is handling. I was really dissapointed when I drove the 2001 Civic and how poorly it handled and drove (in my opinion) compared to previous Civics I had tooled around end. Really was a down grade from the previous version. Honda seems to be moving to the Toyota and GM school of handling more and more every year. Luckily Acura still has the TSX and the RSX (which should still be called an Integra darn it!) Just don't think the newer Honda's are near as fun to drive as the early-to-mid 90's Hondas on back.
Just my opinion though. And no, I don't think they're on the ropes or anything. Just a crossroads.
Frankly, even though I'm style bashing, I admit to really liking the Si. That's a hip little car. I just think it's outclassed by similarly priced competition; it's not a great value for what it does, IMO. But the look is terrific.
Although I have to admit to not liking the way the shifter is setup in the Si. Not that it is hard to use, just that it looks.....well.....wrong.......Not that there's anything wrong with that ;-)
Exactly...and they don't look as good anymore either. My 92' Integra GS-R was a much better car than my brother's 2002 Civic EX, and it shouldn't be because the design is 10 years older. Both of my brother's Accords, an 89' and a 91' were also much better than his new Civic.
and the new Si? It looks like a Pokemon character from a Nintendo game, and the shifter is just plain goofy, even if it does work good.
By the way - lemon law may be restricted on mileage and time, but complaints under Mag-Moss aren't because of the "implied warranty of merchantibity". There is case law in place that has assured consumer vistory in many cases where the vehicle was between 36,000 and 100,000 (or more) miles.
Saugatak, I agree, the market right now is unbelievably cut throat, kill or be killed situation. I dont expect Toyota to have any problems grabbing their goal of 15% of the market. Ford still doesnt seem to understand what makes a good sedan, and neither does Chevy. Chrysler has possibilities. The 300 is way too big and blocky for my tastes, but if they were to use C-class underpinnings rather than E and make a smaller, more attractive car, they could do some real damage to the other two, who are still limping along with 3.0Ls from the Queen Victoria era.
Honda Im sure will be fine. Their sales are up this year, despite a decline in net profit from negative exchange rates. The Pilot is a million times better than the Passport. The Oddysey despite dating back to '99 is still largely competitive with the newly redesigned models from Nissan and Toyota, and blows away supposedly "new" minivans from Ford and GM which are the old minivans with a new face. Booo. Personally I'm not a huge fan of the styling of the new Accord, but I do like that Honda was willing to take a chance, as they were extremely conservative before that, and there must be some people that like the new Accord, as I see just as many (if not more) new ones on the road than Camry. Also, with the new direction that Acura is going in, I could see them easily doubling their sales, picking up disgruntled Euro buyers sick of snotty Audi and BMW dealers.
You could take the example of the Mini as a subcompact that doesn't need to sell on price, but of course, the new tiny Honda will have to sell cheaper than Civics to really be viable, which puts a cap of about $12K on the base price of the Fit when it arrives. Whereas Mini has no other models besides the Cooper. Besides which, the Mini is selling at least as much on cuteness and (dubious) heritage as anything else.
I still hope Honda brings the Fit here - I am a fan of cars of that sort, but I think they will need an aggressive strategy for selling them.
And I maintain that the SUT is going to be a slow seller. The only good thing about it is that since it is basically a chopped-back Pilot, the cost for Honda to develop and build it will be minimal.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The decontenting has been alarming, though, that's very, very true.
Hiccups I say. Hiccups.
As far as the Civic Coupe the back end and front end exteriors don't even match on the 04.
As far as Honda's it used to be Acura in the mid to late 90's that used to have the styling problems now its Honda. I wish Honda could hit on both Acura and Honda styling all at the same time.
As far as the Accord's styling is concerned I have bashed Honda alot on these boards about that, Past Accords weren't conservative looking to me at all. To the Domestic Big 3 buyer yeah past Accords maybe look on the conservative side but the Accord is made is for an audience that likes Japanese Cars not Domestic Big 3 cars. Of course with the 03 Accord that audience that likes Japanese Cars has been left out in the cold a little bit. To me the with the 03 Accord the Accord got American-ized on the exterior.
Laastly on the current CIvic SI I don't like exterior styling either. The last Civic SI(2000 model I believe) is a classic.
~alpha
In that article where Honda posted their 4th quarter numbers they said sales for the Accord and Civic were on the decline.
I do agree styling is subjective though.
Ok no more subjects about styling since thats a different topic.
Yeah styling's subjective, but this is a discussion of what might or might not be wanting in Honda's current fortunes and styling is of course a part of the subject matter.
yeah, that and uninspiring, run-of-the-mill cars, LOL!
Question is, are Honda's current cars too run of the mill?
Maybe they need a new model in the line to compete with sporty models like WRX and SRT-4. Something with a lot more oomph than any of the Civics, more than two doors, and really good styling.
Oh yeah, and bring back the Accord wagon! :-)
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Of course, the Civic's rating is much higher, but I would say Hyundai is doing an acceptable job. Right now I think it's safe to say their cars are somewhere between American and Japanese in terms of quality and reliability. That might be enough for a certain group of people to purchase a Korean car instead of a Japanese model (although this can't account for all of the drop in sales that Honda has had, of course).
Yes, I have an Elantra, and yes, I've had some issues with it (mainly with the brakes, tires, and a few trim pieces). Why did I choose it over a Civic? Well, I couldn't afford $16K for a Civic with ABS (although I guess Honda is going to offer ABS in almost all their cars in a few years). I looked into some used Civics, but for the same price I was able to buy that new Elantra.
I'm sure Honda will do just fine in the long run. As mentioned in some other posts, they have more engineers in charge than bean counters. They just need to put some of the "old" Honda magic back into their cars to distinguish themselves from the American and Korean automakers who have catching up, that's all ; )
I cringe when I see someone who wants to trade their Focus in because of the dismal resale values. Like Taurus, they flop at the auctions.
I do know Ford sometimes approves auto loans on people so bad I can't believe it.
The loss of the double wishbones didn't really hurt the handling of the Civics either but anytime something go's away I know the perception is that something was lost as a result.
As far as not "cutting it"..I don't know, we still sell a lot of them. It'll be interesting to see what happens with the re-design.
Yep, you are. At least with me it was. Civic lost out to the Focus with me. Not the only person I know that made the same choice as well.
"But those cars are unreliable pieces of junk!" some biased ones will say. Well then the reliability reputation in this class is still held by the Corolla, and it has a much nicer interior to boot.
The Civic doesn't really stand out in styling, although the refresh of it helped the coupe out in my opinion. So the styling angle can be filled by other cars as well.
The Civic doesn't hold it over the other cars on price either. Tends to be more expensive than the most of the class.
Also, the Civic isn't available in 5-door hatch or wagon styles (although much of the rest of the class isn't either), but one more section of the small car market it isn't filling.
And, to top it off, the premier Civic Si was rolled out way over priced and out classed by competitors.
All this sounds like I might hate the current Civic, but I don't. It just doesn't stand out in this market and doesn't do anything really well. Just kind of "average" all around. Luckily it still has the "Honda Civic" badge or sales would be much worse in my opinion.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
The Taurus is outclassed by everything. It's like the Impala, these are cars that should've been replaced ten years ago. Like I said, Ford and Chevy still dont understand how to be competitive in cars, and their strangle hold on trucks wont last forever.
It wasnt really the styling that held Mazda and Nissan back, their cars were bland and boring. Mazda lost the RX, nissan lost the 300ZX. The best they had was Millenia and Maxima, neither of which were as good as the competition. Like one of the previous posters said, the first generation Lexus SC was a gorgeous car, and yet after a few years, sales were a few thousand per year.
Maybe, but they aren't selling well, neither are most coupes in general.
Accord sales are way behind Camry, and the Odyssy dropped too, what happened? They are supposed to be "unstoppable".
Their SUV's are selling well, but don't tell that to the Seirra Club, who seem to think all Hondas are electric powered Civics, the size of the 1974 model.
Also, "cool Dads" won't drive a FWD pickup truck.
Yeah the new accord coupe is about as gorgeous as the ugly new nissan quest.
Honda is very much "on that"... the '05 Odyssey will be a complete redesign.
Based on JD Power's Apeal survey, it seems that styling isn't a real problem for the Accord. For the 2003 model year, the Accord was rated 3 out of 5. The only major competitor that was ranked higher in styling was the Mazda 6 (rated 4 out of 5). Competitors like Nissan Altima and VW Passat, cars which are often held up as examples of attractive styling when someone claims that the Accord is unattractive, got the same ranking as the Accord. Others like Camry, Galant, Saturn L series and Legacy were ranked lower in styling (rated 2 out of 5).
So despite the passionate dislike for the Accord's styling exhibited by some posters here, it seems that when you check with a larger cross section of the population than is represented in these forums, they consider the Accord's styling to be as attractive as or more attractive than most of its competition.
I'm not knocking the Accord - I own a 2003 EX sedan - but styling of this generation does seem to be more polarizing than that of previous generations. And sales are down this year, which is unusual for a Honda in its second year on the market.
lexusguy: As for Ford and Chevy not "knowing how to be competitive in cars" - they know, but they don't want to do what it takes to stay in the game. They can't leave a design on the market with only minor changes for 7-10 years.
The sad part is that the original 1986 Taurus set the template for this class of car, even with its reliability problems. Unfortunately, as Honda and Toyota introduced larger, more refined versions of the Accord and Camry, Ford let the Taurus sit for too long, not bringing out an all-new model until 1996. The current Taurus - which was a big jump in quality from the first-generation version - should have been replaced around 2000 or 2001.
Honda had the look of the Accord Sedan down pat with the mid 90's and late 90's Accord. Those were great looking cars.
What upsets even more is Honda put the Acura TSX out which looks like your classic Honda product and they charge 5-7 grand more than a 4 cylinder Accord LX for that. As a Honda fan that upsets me a little bit. The TSX looks more youthful in style than the Accord sedan does.
Well, given the results of the Apeal survey that I just posted, the fact that those surveyed gave the Accord's styling the same ranking as the Altima and Passat, and ranked it higher than the Camry seems to support isell's statement.
Although some people on this forum express a passionate distaste for the current Accord's styling, the survey shows that most people don't share that distaste.
That's nothing more than speculation. You don't know that. Nor do you know that "most of us" car-guys and gals don't care for the styling. Statements like that which are based on simple observations in a forum such as this are hardly conclusive. The only thing we do know is that some people really dislike it and feel compelled to repeat that opinion with nearly every post.
As for the Maytag comment, I haven't heard any people being passionate about the styling of their washing machine. Especially given that with the exception of some newer high-end models that have been given a unique look, a Maytag looks like a Kenmore which looks like a Whirlpool, etc.
The car was better than its predecessor, which was a best seller, but the styling drove a ton of potential buyers away.
Regarding those cars that didn't fare as well - the Galant and L-Series sell more on price. I would imagine that buyers were willing to overlook the styling to pay less. The Legacy sells on AWD, while Camry sells on its reputation. What the Appeal Survey tells me is that the Galant, L-Series, Legacy and Camry sold DESPITE their styling, for a variety of reasons. All of those but the Camry are second-string players.
Toyota in general reminds me of Chevy during the 1950s and 1960s. Even when one model wasn't quite as attractive as before (i.e., the 1959 "batwing" Chevy), loyal owners stuck with the marque because of positive past experiences, a reputation for quality and strong resale value.
Maybe satisfied Honda owners (such as myself) like the styling of the Accord, but the declining sales figures for the 2004 model tell me that something is not quite right. Maybe the styling isn't the culprit, but all other aspects of the car have received excellent reviews.
"If the survey asks owners, I would imagine that they like the styling of their vehicles. That's like asking a new bride if she thinks her husband is a great guy. One hopes the answer is "yes."
But you contradict this position when you state later on that some people are willing to overlook the styling in favor of other characteristics of the car. If that's true, why do you assume that this applies only to Camrys, Galants and Saturn L series, and that Accord buyers MUST have liked the car's styling in order to buy it? It seems to me that this assumption isn't necessarily valid. The Accord has many other well known attractive characteristics (reputation for reliability, high tech, bang for the buck, great interior, balanced performance) that could easily attract someone who wasn't really high on the styling. You say that the Camry sells largely on reputation, even though it seems that owners don't rate its styling all that high. Well, I contend that its reputation is one of the Accord's biggest selling points as well, and based on this survey, even if they bought the Accord primarily for its other appealing features, most of the owners seem satisfied with the styling as well.
That can even apply to your bride analogy... if her new husband is kind, has a great personality, is a wonderful lover, has lots of money, a great job, high social status, etc., she may not have married him because he was the best looking guy around.
So I wouldn't be so quick to dismiss the results of this survey as a given. By your own arguments, you suggest that this isn't necessarily so.
I think the concept of Appeal studies has tremendous validity, because we don't all have the same criteria when choosing a car. To the extent that these studies have a good data base and are accurately described and conducted, I think they're great. That's why I read both Consumer Reports and Car and Driver -- one has information on reliability and projected maintenance costs, the other driving impressions. Both are useful, and of the two, the more useful by far is the maintenance information because no one I know buys a car without driving it first -- so who cares what Car and Driver thinks about it?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
What I am saying is that it's dangerous take a survey conducted solely among people who bought a particular car and then extrapolate the results about something very subjective - in this case, styling - to the general population. As I understand your argument, the Accord's styling is rated well among people who bought the car; therefore, the general public likes its styling as well. That, in my opinion, is a shaky jump at best.
I'm sure that a fair number of people who bought AMC Pacers liked the styling - but, as history has shown, that opinion wasn't shared by the general population.
I'm glad that people who bought the Accord like the styling. I'm one of them. But it is not accurate to state that the JD Powers Survey results prove that the Accord is attractive, or that the general public likes the car's styling. This was the point that was originally being made when the JD Powers Survey results were first mentioned.
All that the survey proves is that most people who bought the Accord liked its looks. With sales down for 2004, it's safe to ask whether the general public shares our opinion of the Accord's styling.
talon95: "But you contradict this position when you state later on that some people are willing to overlook the styling in favor of other characteristics of the car."
I'm saying that people buy different cars for different reasons. That is the point I was making.
talon95: "You say that the Camry sells largely on reputation, even though it seems that owners don't rate its styling all that high."
Reputation and styling are two entirely different attributes. It's entirely plausible that a car can have less-than-stellar styling but a great reputation. I would argue that the Camry fits this description perfectly. The 1959 Chevrolet is an earlier example of this phenomenon.
talon95: "Well, I contend that its reputation is one of the Accord's biggest selling points as well, and based on this survey, even if they bought the Accord primarily for its other appealing features, most of the owners seem satisfied with the styling as well."
I don't doubt that most of the owners are satisfied with the styling. The big question for Honda is whether the public as a whole finds it attractive, or if the styling is turning off people and steering them to the Mazda, Nissan or Acura store.
talon95: "That can even apply to your bride analogy... if her new husband is kind, has a great personality, is a wonderful lover, has lots of money, a great job, high social status, etc., she may not have married him because he was the best looking guy around."
I said she thought he was a "great guy," not a "great-looking guy." (Women, by and large, tend to be less concerned about looks than other qualities.) If you ask her if he is a great guy after she marries him, of course she will say "yes." Why wouldn't she?
Applying that argument to new car styling - it is the same with MOST new car buyers. Yes, most of them will like the styling of their new vehicle - why would they buy it in the first place?
But, for some new car buyers, there are other overriding attributes (rock-bottom price, availability of AWD, good past experience) that can trump less-than-stellar looks and get them to buy a particular model. I would argue that the Galant, L-Series, Legacy and Camry each fit into one of those three exceptions. That is why owners can give those vehicles lower ratings for styling even after purchasing them.
The Accord is not selling as well in its second year. This is unusual for a Honda model. We need to explore ALL possible reasons - including a possible dislike among the general public for its styling - for this downturn. The JD Powers Appeal Survey does not prove that the car's styling is attractive to the public as a whole. The price didn't rise with this generation. I have not heard of any major quality problems. Road test results from several sources have given the car top-notch ratings in other categories. Given these factors, it makes sense to look at the styling first. That is all I'm saying.
I don't want Honda - or Honda fans - to develop the circle-the-wagon mentality that has decimated Detroit for so many decades.