Has Honda's run - run out?

robertsmx

If sales numbers don't matter, then the next thing to blame is Honda marketing. Like you mention, FP package didn't add to things on paper, and raw specs are sometimes starting point in getting noticed.

That said HB probably costs more to manufacture/import (from UK) than coupe/sedan. And weighs more as well. SO, going forward, it would make sense for Honda to go for Coupe form. Lower production costs can provide for more stuff in the car at the same price, or same stuff at a lower price.

varmint

Oh, I'm not saying that sales figures don't matter at all. It's just that they're not the only measure of success. With a low volume car, like many sports cars, an important goal for the vehicle is to provide image. The Si provides neither volume, nor a strong icon.

I agree that moving to a coupe is a smart move. Like you say, the vehicle is already produced here. The performance parts are already available. The body style is pretty well liked. They just need to make it extreme enough to attract the boy racer crowd.

anonymousposts

Someone out there likes those 99-00 Si's.

http://carmax.com/dyn/searchengine/searchresults.asp?CityMarket=3- 1&CityMarketLabel=Austin&RefineType=0&RefineTypeLabel- =Make%20and%20Model&Location=7154&LocationLabel=Austin&am- p;Make=HO&MakeLabel=Honda&Price=5&PriceLabel=Any%20Pr- ice&Model=CIVI&ModelLabel=Civic&NewUsed=1&SearchT- ype=0&showButton=N&userNS=Y

$10,998 for a 5 year old Civic with 109k that sold for $17,500 MSRP when new.

nippononly

are going to wind up being much more sought after than the 02-05s, it would seem. Those were some SERIOUS high revvers. With i-VTEC, the new one is less extreme and less fun as a consequence (redline more than 1000 rpm lower, right?). Even with the ABS! :-P

grbeck

I always thought the 1999-2000 Civic Si was popular in the marketplace when new, and that popularity carried over to the used-car market.

raychuang00

I think Honda should have put the 160 bhp i-VTEC engine into the US-production Honda Civic coupé instead of importing the Honda Civic Si hatchback from the UK. That way, Honda gets a really sporty model of the Civic from US production alone.

As such, I do foresee a 200 bhp i-VTEC engine in the next-generation Honda Civic coupé--something based on the K20B engine now sold on some JDM Honda models.

ateixeira

I liked the old hatch but not the current one. The windshield almost could have come off a small minivan.

Any how, you think GTI is popular? VW sells 7 times as many Jettas here. Seven times!

I prefer hatches, but the fact is they have limited appeal in this country.

Add to that the fact that 93% of cars here are automatics, and a manual-only hatch will sell in very low volumes.

-juice

robertsmx

B16 had been in market for a long time when it was installed in Civic Si (1999). However, K20 arrived around the same time current Civic Si did. After market takes a few years before settling down on an engine. I feel that K20A is far more potent and flexible than the B16, and we should see that revelation soon. In fact, K20A is already regarded as a highly tuneable engine, a potential that usually goes unharnessed in new cars. User car market is a different story. If HB craze catches up in the USA, the current Si may end up being a high demand model for after market tuning. As it is, it is the base MSRP that seems to scare a few buyers.

nippononly

and yet, aren't pretty much ALL the "hot" compacts manual-only? Exception might be GTI, I forget. And that 7% manual-buying portion of the public can easily lap up the tiny volumes these cars are meant to sell in. These are all cars making power from small engines - performance dictates they be manuals.

A more common "hot" compact is the WRX, with its little turbo 2.0 pulling around more than 3000 pounds. Turbo lag is evident in this model, and that little engine needs every bit of help it can get until the turbo pours on in full force above 3500 rpm. I would not get an automatic WRX, although that is a model that successfully markets autos inaddition to the manuals (and sells in higher volume than the other "hot hatches", but really, what is the mix of manual/automatic? I will bet they sell more manual WRXs than automatics).

newcar31

"Any how, you think GTI is popular? VW sells 7 times as many Jettas here. Seven times!"

I don't know how many GTIs VW sells, but if what I see on the road is any indication, it sells more GTIs than Honda sells Si Civics. That is what I was talking about. They are direct competitors, sporty, relatively expensive, hatchbacks.

I'd expect the Honda to sell better because Hondas always seem to sell well, but not in this case.

If I had to pick, I'd get the Honda though, because I wouldn't have any piece of mind owning a VW out of warranty.

robertsmx

How many GTIs did VW sell in 2003? How many Civic Si did Honda sell in the same period? TO make it even better comparison, is there a way to find out sales numbers of GTI equipped with manual transmission?

BTW, I just found out that VW sold 149 units of GTI in Oct 2004 (1,258 units from January thru October). In 2003 (same period), VW had sold 1,965 units and that would be a 2400 unit pace/year.

OTOH, with 1,600 units sold in October 2004, RSX is kinda a minor model in Acura lineup. Says enough about how perception of sales volume can differ. Prelude was lifted off the market when the sales were hovering around 1000 units/month, as was the case with Acura CL.

ateixeira

I think manual-only is fine for sport compacts, given they're not meant to appeal to everyone, just enthusiasts, and those are the people that like manuals.

But when you start narrowing it down even further, hatch only body style, specific equipment levels, etc., then you limit the appeal too much.

WRX is mostly manual, I think I read 55% at one point (don't quote me on that). Overall Imprezas are mostly automatic of course.

But Subaru was smart - they sell a sedan and a 5 door, with many different equipment levels, both trannies, even a halo variant (STi).

Neon is a sedan, Sentra also, and EVO. Seems like hot hatch has become hot compact sedan?

I'm not saying Honda should copy anyone, variety is great.

-juice

varmint

Golf GTi YTD sales

http://www.autosite.com/editoria/asmr/svcoupe.asp

Don't have numbers for the Civic Si. I think Honda lumps them into the totals for the coupe.

nippononly

The echo coupe is outselling the GTI two to one! LOL

Haven't they already stopped making the GTI on the old platform? I think that might be why it is not selling much any more. This year all they had was the R32 and some leftover GTIs from earlier in the year.

Sadness: Celica is down to three-digit sales monthly. Bye bye Celica.

If you look at it just on paper, the price for the SI seems about right: Civic EX is about $1500 more than LX, which is about $1500 more than DX, and the SI tops EX by about $1500 (maybe edging towards $2000). The EX sells great. Over the EX, the SI has those great seats, a much more powerful engine, and bigger rims and tires, not to mention the suspension upgrades. You would think all that stuff would be worth $1800 or so, and the buyers would come in droves. Instead, they all stayed away.

Tangent: imagine the day when there is an SI four-door Civic in the sedan-loving U.S.! Ick.

newcar31

"How many GTIs did VW sell in 2003? How many Civic Si did Honda sell in the same period?"

Do you read my posts? I don't know. I'm going by what I see on the road, and I see more GTIs than Si Civics. And I'm not talking about RSXs, I'm talking about the Civic Si.

robertsmx

Numbers aren't supposed to lie. 149 units/month isn't a lot, even as model change approaches. In fact, in Oct 2003, VW moved only 190 units of GTI. And that isn't a lot either. If Honda is selling Civic Si at a pace that is below expectations (say 12K units/year), at least 1K units would have to be moved out every month.

newcar31

Geez. I said I did not know the numbers. I don't know.

Let me say it again: I don't know.

From what I see on the road, there are more GTIs. I very well could be wrong.

Do you have Civic Si sales numbers? Because numbers don't lie.

ateixeira

You can't go by what you see on the road because sales can be very regional.

For instance, Subaru's market share in Florida is 0.5%. We joke that one of our Subaru Crew members owns both of the Subies in Florida.

In Vermont the own 7% market share. Every other car is a Subaru it seems.

-juice

robertsmx

Yep, sales numbers would make sense. Like you, I could have claimed (which, BTW would be true) that I see more Civic Si on the road. In fact, I can’t recall when I saw the last GTI on the road.

But yes, having sales numbers would be nice. I will give it a try. We know that for GTI, and anything less than 200 units/month for a $20K car doesn’t sound very good.

ateixeira

http://www.channel4.com/4car/gallery/spy-shots-2004/H/honda-civic- .html

Looks sharper, but that windshield is still huge.

-juice

robertsmx

Devil with two trapezoidal exhausts looks nice to me. Big swooping windshield has been a Honda thing IMO, and part of the frontal design (the way hood lines up) probably has to do with the NCAP Pedestrian safety rating, which is becoming a big thing in Europe (Current Civic HB was the first car to break the mold in the ratings when it debuted).

Looks like Honda is going back to sleeker head lamps (and matching tail lamps) this time around, like they did with 1992-1995 Civic.

varmint

Hmmm... That incorporates quite a bit of "Acura" styling. The headlights and tail pipes are obvious, but the grill is covered up.

robertsmx

Grill doesn't look much different from the current. Not bad, only if it can be put on Accord as well.

robertsmx

Artist rendition from Honda Factbook for 1992 Civic hatchback...



... translated to this form...



I see some resemblance continuing with the new HB. Does anybody else see that?

nippononly

those pics look EXACTLY like the MT artist rendition this month of the '06 Civic! Meaningful coincidence, or just both drawn from the same place?

I am with varmint: it looks a LOT like an Acura. The grill shown in MT is almost identical (only smaller) to the one on the current TL. I can't imagine where RSX styling is going to go for '07 to remain faithful to the Acura family look while distinguishing itself from the Civic, if this turns out to truly be the '06.

raychuang00

If the spy shots ARE those of the 2006 Honda Civic, it appears that Honda has decided to go back to a more "swoopy" design in order to better compete against the Mazda3 and the upcoming Nissan Sentra replacement.

I can't wait to see this new design translated into the four-door sedan and two-door coupé models that will be sold in North America. :-)

robertsmx

The grill/headlamps look like a copy of the Euro Accord (AKA TSX), which makes sense for the European market. I suspect, it will be slightly different for the North American market.

As for Mazda3, it uses a very upright stance IMO, and in sedan form, looks squished from the rear.

The Civic HB (spy shot) shows a more rounded approach to the rear than we have seen from Honda. The front has that swoopy Honda look though. The side profile is quite interesting, and the turn indicator has moved to the side mirrors.

And this looks like a 5-door hatch!

carlisimo

The Civic is usually seen as a 5-door in Europe right now, so I'm not surprised that it's the first to be spotted but I'll be surprised if the US gets it. 5-doors are resurging here, but Honda's always a few years behind such trends.

The rear looks like the 6th generation (previous) hatchback, it the shape of the rear side windows and the rake of the hatch. I don't think the CRX-style split rear window works very well.

The front looks like an evolution of the current hatchback - even more rake. Actually like an evolution of that drawing that robertsmx posted... apparently the Civic's front has been using that design vision for a decade and a half.

Overall... it gives me a bad feeling. I liked even the current hatch at first sight, but this car just looks strange.

synpthesis

decided on
the XRS. Been going good for a couple of months now.
It is nice to cruise around like nothing... then wind up the engine like anything! Your ears and brain scream 'change gear' but your eyes assure you it's not redline yet.
I am thorougly impressed with this vehicle. I see Honda engineers taking notes. How can a tiny 4cyl sedan be so much fun to drive? 6cyl, 250hp DVD/GPS navi what for?
If Toyota keeps this up then the Democrats are going to be in opposition for a long time.
More later.

ateixeira

Yeah, it does look like a Jr. TSX up front. But of course the TSX is a Honda in Europe.

Will that even be the Civic we will get here?

CRX-style split rear window

I noticed that too, but I like it. I think Mercedes uses it on their C coupe also.

Overall it's much improved from the current Si sold here but that windshield still looks like it came off a van of some sort.

-juice

stickguy

I like 5 door hatches, especially when they are of the sedan look variety, as opposed to wagonish (even though the wagon style gives a more usable shape). The A3 Audi is kinda sharp from the pictures I've seen.

A 5 door Si could be tasty.

robertsmx

I’ve had a little fun in a compact sedan with screaming 170 HP engine mated to a slick manual transmission and riding on real suspension before. ;-)

newcar31

I loved those 4 door GS-Rs.

robertsmx

The latest rumor is that the next Acura EL will have 200 HP K-series motor.

ateixeira

A3 looks great but that's what the Golf ought to be.

Instead the A3 is the looker so the Golf had to get that strange new face.

5 doors are great in general.

-juice

carlisimo

I would probably get a 5-door because I would use them, but I've never seen one that I thought looked better than the 3-door version.

But do give me the choice at least.

ateixeira

I think really small cars seem to look bigger when they have 5 doors instead of 3.

My mom has a Fiat Palio and I think the 5 door looks just as good if not better. The 3 door looks kinda cheap.

-juice

stickguy

the Focus is like that. The 5 door looks bigger and better balanced.

I have a 3 door hatch now (Scion tC), and while getting the kids in and out isn't that big of a deal, having rear doors does come in handy, and is more convenient.

carlisimo

"I think really small cars seem to look bigger when they have 5 doors instead of 3."

You're right, they do. That's alright for really small cars like the Peugeot 206, but five doors on the Focus and A3 make those two cars look too big to be any fun, especially in pictures.

robertsmx

The current Civic 3-door and 5-door versions:

raychuang00

But note that the Honda Civic hatchbacks have nothing in common with the US-market four-door sedan and two-door coupé models.

This is why I think the next-generation Civic will go back to the design philosophy of the Civic model the generation before the current model--all models will very likely share the same front end design. This means the US-market four-door sedan and two-door coupé will be far more "swoopy" looking to better compete against the new small car models coming from other manufacturers.

stickguy

Make an Si model of that 5 door and I would buy one (if they kept the price down and geared it better).

ateixeira

There's one exception, IMO. I like the upswept rear windows on the 3 door. The 5 door's D-pillar looks dull without that tiny detail.

So in that case I prefer the 3 door. The front windshield is longer than it is wide, though, so front end styling is still off.

-juice

robertsmx

Honda windshield have traditionally been large, and in cars like Civic, which aren’t supposed to be wide to start with, they will appear like that (same in cars like NSX). No wonder one of the Civic Si reviewers noted a mid-engine car like cockpit in the Si.

synpthesis

decided on
the XRS. Been going good for a couple of months now.
It is nice to cruise around like nothing... then wind up the engine like anything! Your ears and brain scream 'change gear' but your eyes assure you it's not redline yet.
I am thorougly impressed with this vehicle. I see Honda engineers taking notes. How can a tiny 4cyl sedan be so much fun to drive? 6cyl, 250hp DVD/GPS navi what for?
If Toyota keeps this up then the Democrats are going to be in opposition for a long time.
More later.

ateixeira

Deja vu?

XRS engine can be fun but gimme torque any day. My Miata has no torque and it can get tiring to wind it up to 5500rpm just to get going.

-juice

nippononly

is like the VTEC of the old days of Honda, only with an even narrower power band (when the cams are on lift). It can be very fun to drive however. It has about the same torque curve as the Civic SI the rest of the time (below 6200 rpm). So it pulls strongly enough without winding it up, but the real fun doesn't begin until that stratospheric rpm, whereas the SI builds steadily in hp.

The Corolla XRS has only 10 more hp and less torque at peak than the SI for about the same price, while the Matrix XRS (same engine and gearing) actually costs more (but has two more doors and commensurately less tight handling and more comfortable highway ride). It was a toss-up for me when I bought my car whether or not I should just go back into my old car (a Matrix) but get the XRS. In the end though, I shuddered to think I might get another one with all the squeaks and rattles of my previous one (the lo-po version of the Matrix, bought when I was enchanted with the car's looks and thought "it wouldn't matter which engine it had"). So I gave that a miss.

ateixeira

Motorweek tested the XRS on yesterday's program, torque is just 127 lb-ft?

Fine for light duty but gimme something that can haul some weight.

Smaller Hondas are kinda short on torque also, I think the 2.4l is the exception, that engine can pull even at low rpm.

-juice

stickguy

saw the Motorweek review also. They did mention it having a broader(?) torque band, basically saying it was more flexible and usable through the rev range.

They seemed to like the engine just fine, and even said that the 6 speed was much improved over the Matrix and Celica.

Related to Honda, if I had to go shopping tomorrow, I wuold put the Corolla on the look at list, along with the Mazda3. But, there isn't any comparable Honda that I would consider to be comparable. How hard could it be to make an Si version of the 4 door? Or at least a sport package for the EX?

ateixeira

They felt the Corolla suspension was a bit soft, so the Civic only lacks an engine to compete with it.

-juice