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If you look closely at the original Acura RD-X concept car from 2002, note that its basic platform layout is almost identical to what the Honda FR-V/Edix became. As a result, the FR-V/Edix platform will likely spawn two US market models:
1. Honda Latitude, which could likely replace the CR-V and will use the replacement for the K24 engine (possibly "K24B" with direct fuel injection) rated at 175-180 bhp (SAE) in both 2WD and 4WD forms. It's possible we may see the i-CTDI 2.2-liter I-4 turbodiesel engine once the USA completely switches to low-sulfur diesel fuel by September 2006.
2. Acura RDX small SUV, which could have a specially modified K24 engine in an Integrated Motor Assist (IMA) hybrid drivetrain for a total of 200 bhp (SAE) output.
Silly talk, or, robertsmx arguing for the sake of arguing. ;0
If 2.0 is derived off a different block, there will be a benefit. If K20 and K24 share the block and everything else but the displacement, there would be no advantage. The same would apply to a smaller displacement V6 engines. The old 2.5/V6 that I mentioned was derived off the same block that 3.0 was.
GM's 3.6/V6 is using a block that is due to span four different displacements (2.8, 3.2, 3.6 and 4.0). You're not going to have weight/packaging advantage by simply choosing 2.8 over 3.6.
Aah, only if you knew (or understood) ;-)
The 2.4l in the Accord and the 2.0l in the Civic Si are in the same engine family, same block, yet people in here were saying that the 2.4l was either too big, too heavy, or too expensive, or all of the above to use in the Civic.
The GM 3.6L is not a V8. The 4.0L V8 that was found in the Aurora is based off the Northstar architecure which is completely different than the new 3.6L
If only you knew...
My point of contention earlier was regarding marketing and needs, besides potential to add weight from a larger displacement engine. And believe me, engine alone doesn't add more weight.
If you want to continue the discussion, start with your idea of why the sportiest Accord carries K20 instead of K24 or J30.
PS. You should be able to recognize a typo, now only if you knew which engine I was referring to. Did you realize I didn't mention 4.6 there? BTW, the 4.0/V8 was based off the 4.6/V8.
And the typo was edited while you were trying to point it out to the world.
They aren't the exact same block because the bores are different, but the outside physical dimensions are the same. You can swap cylinder heads and use the same transmissions between different K series 2.0L or 2.4L engines.
Check this website out and surf around in the forums and you'll see that people are easily swapping K24s into the Civic Si and are building hybrid K24s (2.4L w/ the Si's 2.0L head).
http://www.k-series.com/
If those knuckleheads can do it, Honda could do it.
"My point of contention earlier was regarding marketing and needs"
Marketing? How about a Civic to match a Mazda3, or a Scion Tc, or a Mitsu Lancer?
"If you want to continue the discussion, start with your idea of why the sportiest Accord carries K20 instead of K24 or J30."
I dunno, maybe it has something to do with European displacement penalties or being able to compete in certain racing classes?
"BTW, the 4.0/V8 was based off the 4.6/V8."
Thanks, I'll write that down....dripping with sarcasm.
How about a Civic to match a Mazda3, or a Scion Tc, or a Mitsu Lancer?
Civic doesn't need to match, it needs to continue to lead. There are limits where things tend to become overkill. K20 is more than enough in Civic, IMO. And we should see what Honda thinks in less than a year.
I want to see Civic continue its tradition of small and efficient route, with screaming power plant for Si/Si-R trim. If it ends up being a heavy vehicle, K24 would start to make sense, but I hope that won't happen. We have Accord for the purpose.
I dunno, maybe it has something to do with European displacement penalties or being able to compete in certain racing classes?
Racing isn't the point of production vehicles. It works the other way around. In the same market (JDM BTW) that Euro-R exist, Honda sells less sporty trims of Accord with K24. So, you can throw out For the sportiest trim, the choice was K20.
Uh, the B16/B18 to H22 swaps are not simple. Also, you can't swap cylinder heads and transmissions between the B series and H series.
The K24 fits right in to the Civic Si. No cutting, no need for a different transmission, and you can use the 2.0L's cylinder head.
"K20 is more than enough in Civic, IMO."
There we go. In YOUR opinion.
"Racing isn't the point of production vehicles. It works the other way around."
In certain SCCA racing classes, you need to use a version of the production engine, and some of the classes are limited to 2.0L. This also works well with European displacement taxes.
So if 93% of Pilot sticker for over $30 grand, and then you consider few CR-Vs are the SE model, the gap seems even bigger.
The engines also represent a big gap - 2.4l to 3.5l with nothing in between. Hyrids or a small V6 are a possibility to fill that gap.
-juice
I agree the Mazda3 on paper is a better car than the current Civic, however, Mazda is just unable to get a hold on some major design and QA/QC issues. I am looking for replacing the wife's Altima, and the 3 was the first on my mind, however, looking at the kinds of issues the 3 is having, I am going to wait and watch. My major concern is that the AC problem might be more of a design issue than a QA/QC one, and if a car has a bad AC, there is no way am I going to buy it. The numenrous CELs reported by buyers on edmunds is another concern, though not a serious as the AC. It pains me that everytime Mazda comes out with a great new car, they end up messing it up in the market.
You do understand that I was bring out issues, and never said that I am considering a Civic, right? BTW, I already own a 'base model Accord' which I don't know how you can compare to a Madza3. Mazda is literally giving away Mazda 6's with almost 3k rebates, and for a car that is so good, there must be some reason no one wants to buy one, right?
You also do understand that issues is one thing, but when a company says everything is normal with an AC that refufes to cool in 85 deg temp, there is something going on, isn't it? Yes, I feruse to buy a car in 2004 and accept that it will not be able to provide efficient air conditioning.
The upcoming 2.8 however is derived from the 3.6, but it's going to be a replacement for the current opel derived 3.2, as that engine will get dropped.
I didn't see any plans for a 4.0/V6 based on the 3.6/V6. Are you sure you aren't thinking of the pushrod 3.9/V6 that is coming soon? It's going to be one hell of a pushrod motor. 3 valves per cylinder, VVT, and Cylinder Deactivation.
This family of engines has debuted in 3.6/V6 form and 2.8/V6 is on its way. Others may eventually arrive. I wish I could dig up the article for your reference. Google search should get it.
I wasn't trying to be cocky, I was trying to show that the Civic has competitors that have engines that are much larger than the 1.7L, and it's not just the Mazda3.
"BTW, I already own a 'base model Accord' which I don't know how you can compare to a Madza3."
The 3 can get spendy and you can get a lower model Accord for around the same price.
"You also do understand that issues is one thing, but when a company says everything is normal with an AC that refufes to cool in 85 deg temp, there is something going on, isn't it?"
I had a Mazda3 rental this summer and the A/C worked fine.
People have also complained about the A/C in the Mazda6. Mine works fine.
"That is what was trying to say in my originall post, Mazda makes great cars, but somehow mess up later on. Without exception."
A few people with A/C problems and one guy who constantly complains about it?
"Get it this time?"
I thought this wasn't about smart aleck personal retorts?
There we go. In YOUR opinion.
Where do you want to go? Isn’t the usage of “IMO” enough any more?
In certain SCCA racing classes, you need to use a version of the production engine, and some of the classes are limited to 2.0L.
True, but Euro-R isn’t the only trim that is using K20. Lower trims of Accord in Japanese/European markets use K20 and upper trims use K24. However, Euro-R uses K20, and based on what you just said, it doesn’t have to use K20 since the 2.0 is already a production engine as is K24.
The point of this debate surrounding K20 and K24 is that choice of engine is based on orientation of the vehicle that is going to carry it. K20 apparently gives the Euro-R a more sporty flavor that the relatively docile K24 does (there is a sport trim Accord with K24 but not directly comparable to Euro-R).
But speaking of trims, I've seen three new Odysseys on the road, and all three were Touring models. I would expect more people to go after EX/EX-L trims though.
And I never talked about engines. The reason your post seemed cocky was that you suggested I buy a Civic or an Accord as 'they would be perfect.' Definitely cocky.
"The 3 can get spendy and you can get a lower model Accord for around the same price"
You would have to compare two similar sized cars. The Accord and 3 are in two different segments. And your logic would also apply to the 6, since that too is a midsize, versus the 3 being a compact.
"I had a Mazda3 rental this summer and the A/C worked fine."
Look at the Mazda3 problems forum, you will see that the AC problem is real, not few and far between. Something akin to when the first few owners complained of rust in a Mazda6, sludge in Camry, Transmission in Accord, which later tirned out to be big problems.
"People have also complained about the A/C in the Mazda6. Mine works fine."
I don't know about any problems with the AC of the 6, but I do happen to remember that you live in MN, if I am not wrong. Surely the summers there would be different from the other states, especially with everyone complaining about AC in the Mazda3.
"A few people with A/C problems and one guy who constantly complains about it?"
Mazda creates great product after the 626, the Mazda 6. Great car, praised by almost everyone, universally. Then problems start, CELs, rust (denied by Mazda in the beginning, still calls it stain). I-4 only works well with stick, seats fray, a few other minor issues, nothing serious except rust. Happens to most manufacturers, including Toyota and Honda, however, Mazda is in a rebuilding phase, and can't afford this. Now CR drops 6 to below average, unacceptable because Mazda quality is generally good. On top of it, most customers complain of bad customer service from Mazda corporate. Result: $3000 rebates and still lying in dealer lots.
Then Mazda comes up with an even better product, class of the field (IMHO) the Mazda3. Great expectations, most reviews praise the car. Now this AC issue, CELs, some brake issues etc. The car still sells well, and I believe that is since the product itself is greatand supply is restricted, but IMO, its not going to hold, because bad news travels fast. Pity, because the 3 is a great car, deserves better.
If all these problems were abounding, I'd be one of the first to see it - you can't put much stock in people with buyer's remorse complaining in internet chat rooms.
You agree with me on my own information? That's good, I guess.
In state courts, they don't pay much attention to CR reports or chat rooms, just to the number of suits brought and how they're verdicted.
That, to me, is more real world than any magazine test (which is compiled using consumer data, which is flawed) or chat room grumblings.
I know they're in different segments, that doesn't mean you can't cross shop them.
"Look at the Mazda3 problems forum, you will see that the AC problem is real, not few and far between. Something akin to when the first few owners complained of rust in a Mazda6, sludge in Camry, Transmission in Accord, which later tirned out to be big problems."
I read the same threads that you do.
"I don't know about any problems with the AC of the 6, but I do happen to remember that you live in MN, if I am not wrong. Surely the summers there would be different from the other states, especially with everyone complaining about AC in the Mazda3."
You don't much about Minnesota summers. They're hot and sticky. Not Houston or Miami-like, but they aren't cold. It does get into the 90s and there are 80 degree dewpoints-not pleasant. The average highs in Minneapolis in the summer are actually warmer than Los Angeles.
"Happens to most manufacturers, including Toyota and Honda,"
Yup.
"even CR has downgraded the 6 and the 3"
I knew they downgraded the 6, didn't know about the 3. I looked at that issue and judging by the circle ratings it appears that the Mazda6 got dinged for the fuel tank recall and the rust.
Another reason why cars models must maintain their identity and classification. Marketing rules!
For our second car, Civic made sense over Accord LX, although purchase price was within couple of grands that was a non-issue.
The advantages for the 6 over the 3 would be smoother ride, quieter, a little bigger interior, much bigger trunk, better interior materials (besides the silver center stack), looks (IMO)
The advantages for the 3 over the 6 would be much better turning radius, better handling, cheaper (maybe not because of rebates), made in Japan (IMO, it's an advantage), and gas mileage (2.0L).
It's amazing what a single mention of the Mazda3 leads to in here.
"For our second car, Civic made sense over Accord LX, although purchase price was within couple of grands that was a non-issue."
For your reasons, it obviously made sense to get the Civic, because that's what you got, but, you could easily make an argument for the Accord LX over the top level Civic. There are trade offs for each choice, but the price isn't that much different.
Did the stains ever progress to actual rust? I thought that Mazda6 owners caught the problem in time and Mazda was able to nip it in the bud.
The four attributes above: superb performance/handling,unpretentious, reasonably priced and sporty looking are the same attributes that made Honda an exciting company in the past. Hopefully Honda will find its way again(the s2000 is one exception to my critique)
As for trade offs, you're correct. This isn't a perfect world after all. And thats why we have choices. If there were no trade offs between Civic and Accord, why have two models?
Well, I figured you knew of the Accord LX's existance, and you chose the Civic anyway for your own reasons. Is that an OK conclusion to draw?
Going back to my point, Civic has to maintain its identity and different from Accord. Creating a confusion between the two isn't going to help. Let Civic, at the top end (SI/Si-R and may be EX), be the sporty alternative to mainstream Accord (LX) and the rest of the lineup carry its traditional appeal (high fuel economy, low cost of ownership, low emissions, reasonable performance).
"Losing its Cool? Rival automakers making dent in Honda's hold on younger crowd"
"At a drifting event last year at Los Angeles' Irwindale Speedway, thousands of young import-brand racing fans lustily booed the Honda name when it was mentioned over the loudspeaker."
"Since the early 1990s, the Honda Civic has been the car of cool kids and the aftermarket companies that feed the fever for go-fast parts. Today, rival automakers are building vehicles directed at the younger crowd, and they are making a dent."
"Last year was the first time since 1996 that Honda did not break 300,000 Civic sales. Even with unheard-of dealer cash incentives tacked on the Civic, sales were flat through September."
http://www.autoweek.com/news.cms?newsId=101140
Civic sales over a few years:
1995: 289,435
1996: 286,350
1997: 321,144
1998: 335,110 (Best year in Civic's sales history)
1999: 318,309
2000: 324,528
2001: 331,780 (Second best year in Civic's sales history)
2002: 313,159
2003: 299,672
2004: 262,958* (thru October, on pace to 315K this year)
Now it would be interesting to see how Civic's competitors stacked up over these years. Missing out 300K target by 328 is a huge deal, I guess.
HES II is the further evolution of a joint development effort by Honda and Plug Power to produce a home refueling unit that provides hydrogen from natural gas for vehicle refueling, heat for domestic hot water use and electricity for the home.
Well, it was off 13,487 from the year before. Anyway, it was the Autoweek article that pointed out missing the 300,000 mark, not me.
Did you read the article?
You CAN get a FWD car to drift, just not as well as a RWD car and there ARE FWD cars in drifting events.
I get my Mazda6 to drift all the time on cloverleafs, it's called oversteer. The difference though with a FWD car is that *power* oversteer is impossible.
FWD cars can drift, sure, but in drift COMPETITION where maintaining a line is the most important thing, it's tough to do. A pro can hang the tail out with the e-brake and modulate power, but why go to all the trouble when a car like a Nissan 240 or Toyota Corolla (AE86) does it naturally? The competition is using 240s and 86s, so why show up to a gunfight with a knife?
And drifting belongs on a track, at a sanctioned and/or supervised event, NOT a freeway cloverleaf.
Staying on topic and speaking of Honda, I'm thinking really hard about an S2000 with a Jackson Racing or Vortech supercharger...
It's not like I have the car going sideways on the cloverleaf..lol. I just tweak the steering a little when I'm hanging the corner and I get the back end to come out a little.
Entering an (empty) freeway sideways was what my Mustang was for, lol.
That's what SCCA events are for.
There was a reason I quoted sales for several years, the way to understand how sales stack up.
Now, if a downward slide of 13K going from one year to next can be seen as a huge deal, what would you say about the upward trend by about 15K this year compared to last? I guess that doesn't matter, now does it? And what do you have to say about the 17K unit slide going from 1998 to 1999?
Ups and downs are bound to happen over a period, especially if cars reach their sales saturation point, something I consider Civic to have attained at about 300K units/year (and Accord at 375-400K units/year).
Also interesting to note is that Civic recorded its second best year with the 2001 & 2002 model that was much maligned, right here in these boards. I used to think that Civic had its best years in the early 90s, until I saw these numbers.
Got sales for Ford Focus or Mazda Protege for the same period? Should make for an interesting comparison.
The whole article isn't about sales. And how would you know what the "required stuff" from the article would be if you didn't even read it?
For some reason, autoweek.com isn't available now, but when it becomes available, I'll provide some more quotes since you won't read any articles that might show any sign of weakness from Honda. There are quotes from Honda employees also, that all but admit that the latest generation Civic didn't hit the target. A lot of the things they talk about are very similar to what has been discussed (and dismissed by you) in this thread.
http://automobilemag.com/reviews/0408_economy_cars/index.html
Hence the reason why the next-generation Civic due in Fall 2005 will be a much more swoopy car to better compete against the Mazda3 and the next-generation Nissan Sentra due also some time in 2005.
And when you consider that the competition is more fierce now, I think it's all the more impressive that the Civic is doing as well as it is. The Ford Focus, for example, is a much more competent rival than the Escort was, although it was plagued with recalls early on in its life that tarnished its image. And in early 2002, the '03 Corolla became available, which really put some pressure on the Civic. Toyota had been letting the Corolla languish for a few years, and it was becoming the favorite of little old ladies and men living on a fixed income, but the '03 model changed all that. The Mazda3 seems like it would be some serious competition for the Civic as well, but I guess Mazda just doesn't have the resources to pump them out in massive volumes to really make a dent in Civic sales.
Then, there's simply the fact that the small car market really isn't growing. Even with the post 9/11 recession, rising unemployment, and escalating fuel prices, people haven't abandoned their big vehicles for more fuel efficient, economy-minded vehicles as quickly as we all might have guessed.
For all the abuse the Civic gets from the enthusiast crowd, it appears that "Jennifer" still likes it.
I remember watching those japanese best motoring videos in college. They were saying you can induce a drift in a FWD car quite easily. But it is impossible to drift one corner and then immediately drift in the opposite direction on the next corner, such as a very tight S-Curve. It is also impossible to do a 720 degree drift with a FWD car. This type of drift is in almost every drift competition I've seen. (2 complete revolutions around a cone). Sometimes they have a 720 degree drift, with another cone a little bit away, where you have to do another 720 drift in the opposite direction, etc...