Has Honda's run - run out?

andre1969

I actually kinda liked it when I first saw them at the auto shows. But now that I'm seeing them out on the road, I've lost interest. It's not that I've developed a hatred for them, but I guess I just came to the realization that I'm too young to "experience the tranquility", as the Avalon ads used to say! :P

As for Acura, I always looked at them as basically a Japanese Buick or Oldsmobile, or maybe an upper-end Chrysler, or where Mercury/DeSoto were back in the day. Before it was called "Near Luxury", it was called the "Upper Medium Price Class" or something like that. I saw Infiniti and Lexus as that too, maybe a step or two below a Lincoln or Caddy, when they were new, but these days they seem a bit above a Caddy or Lincoln on the price/prestige scale.

davem2001

40, 50 years ago, Buicks were considered pretty much like Acuras today - "upscale", a cut above the average car, but not quite an all-out luxury car....

I'd say Volvo, Saab, maybe Audi are sort of in the same position...

To me, maybe I'm just showing my age, but when I think VW, I think Beetle, Rabbit, Scirroco....not a $30K Passat or a $60K Phaeton.... the name VW doesn't say "luxury" to me..

davem2001

Yep, that's what I meant, too

ateixeira

Ok, but then consider that Honda has about half as many dealerships and almost matches that best selling pair. Not bad.

Of course now we have to add Mercury whatever. Then we'll probably get a Lincoln something and a Jaguar clone. :mad:

I think the wife is tired of a bumper-to-bumper commute and wants an automatic, plus she'd like the idea of "experience the tranquility", LOL.

-juice

nippononly

makes a good point: people often think of the three Japanese premium car divisions as roughly in the same group, but these days the gaps among them are widening. Lexus has pulled well away, and is legitimately (I think) considered in the same breath as MB/BMW/Audi, while Infiniti is a half-notch lower (great cars, usually in the same league on paper, but without the snob factor of the top marques), and Acura is a whole step lower - the Japanese entry lux brand, definitely below Cadillac, where I would not say that about Lexus/Infiniti. Comparing Acura to Lincoln is really apples to oranges, IMO. but if the market were reduced to a linear spectrum of positioning, Acura might be near or just below Lincoln? I am not sure.

ateixeira

Upscale affordable semi-premium near-luxury not-quite-Audi but nicer-than-VW in an old-school upper medium price class Buick kind of way.

I think we have it pegged. It's Friday. Cheers. :shades:

-juice

nippononly

is Acura nicer than VW? Nah, I'm not so sure. Definitely more performance-oriented, but VW has some pretty nice engines and transmissions these days, and are certainly sublime in their class in terms of interior. VW is moving up, Acura is sitting right where it is.

ateixeira

I think they've lost focus lately, I'm not sure what they are to be honest.

The Touareg and Phaeton are luxurious but the New Beetle doesn't exactly slot above any Acura. And I think I'd pick a TSX over a Jetta, too.

Perhaps it's just that their move is not yet complete.

-juice

varmint

In 2002, when the CR-V was redesigned, it overtook the Escape (but not the Liberty). Only by about 2 or 3 thousand units, though. Not a big lead.

Ford answered by putting incentives on the Escape. That's when sales really took off. They started pretty mild with only $500 to customers, but within a year it was more like $1,500 - 2,000. They jumped from about 140K units per year to 165 units per year. The CR-V was still going at MSRP through early 2004.

As well as competing with the subsidized Escape, Honda introduced the Element and Pilot in 2003. CR-V sales stayed level, while the Escape and Tribute both jumped up. The Liberty has since been on a steady decline since that first year. But the Escape and Tribute both had a huge jump. Only recently have they started to slip bit by bit back down the chart.

varmint

I don't see the reputation of Infiniti being any better than Acura at this point. Perhaps with the enthusiast crowd, but not with the general public. The I30 and G20 were both flops. The Q flagship (despite RWD and a big V8) was a non-starter. If the words "also-ran" ever applied to a car, that's the one.

Infiniti had nothing great until the G35 sedan and coupe. I think the new M is a terrific car and will bolster the brand image, but it takes time for that to come about.

Acura was just as wimpy though the 1990s. Their only claims to fame were daring to built a semi-exotic, the Integra (which was not earning any snob points), and screwing up the Legend.

That said, Acura started their recovery earlier than Infiniti. And no matter what the finishing order in comparos, Acura is outselling Infiniti and succeeding where they failed. The TSX is far more popular and luxurious than the G20 ever was. The TL reaches more customers than the I35 ever did, and it sells better than the much-ballyhooed G35. The MDX, while not the luxury leader, has a stronger reputation than the FX35 and FX45 which are more or less selling on the bling factor (not a luxury virtue).

I think Infiniti has a strong future, but I'm not fooled by their flavor of the month image. They have a long way to go before matching the marque appeal of Lexus, BMW, and MB. I don't think either Acura or Infiniti will break into that territory until they have an $70K uber sedan that spanks the competition for a good 10 or 15 years.

mariner7

Infiniti does stand for performance. Among the auto consultants, it stood 2nd only to BMW for performance rep, according to an article I read, and that was before the M came out. Remember there are only 3 examples of the new Infiniti (G, FX, M), and each is among the top 2 or 3 performers in its class, along with BMW.

But what does Acura known for? It does make 2 outstanding small cars in RSX and TSX, but in the premium market, you don't make a reputation building small cars. MDX is a rebadged Pilot, looks dowdy. TL drives the wrong wheels to be accepted as performance sedan. Same with RL. TL and RL are examples of superlative Honda engineering, but there's only so much you can do with FWD platforms.

Maybe you're right, reps of Acura & Infiniti are about even. But think back to 4 years ago before G came out, Infiniti's rep was one of failure. So Infiniti has come a long way. And I believe in the future, it will battle BMW to be the performance king. And why not, in the Automobile comparo, 545 and M45 set themselves apart in the timed performance. It tells more about the Automobile editors that they didn't put either in the top three than it says about those two cars.

grbeck

...in relation to Honda, reminds me Oldsmobile in the 1950s, or Pontiac in the 1960s, as compared to Chevrolet - definitely a step above the mass market brand, with more style and performance, but not a true "luxury" brand.

The RL strikes me as occupying the position held by the Olds 98 or Chrysler New Yorker in the 1950s - a semi-luxury car for those who don't want to spend the money on a "true" luxury machine.

As for Infiniti - the Q is the 1966 Chrysler Imperial of the 21st century. It's just sort of there...

ateixeira

Ford has about 2.3 million dealers, too. I swear, when I drive from DC to Ocean City, MD, I must pass about a dozen Ford dealers.

That gives them a big advantage, especially in rural areas.

OK, $2000 rebates don't hurt, either.

Infiniti has great products, now they just have to get the word out. They weren't even on the radar for most shoppers a few years ago.

-juice

anythngbutgm

And ignoring the M, Infiniti needs to start sinking some profits into interiors, something that is a big black mark for me on Infiniti vehicles. Acura has that licked. Some of the best interiors in their respective classes.

ateixeira

They already have. The G has a new interior this year.

-juice

anythngbutgm

I now there were a few "tweeks" here and there to update the orignal design, but I didn't notice anything significant, and it still was not on par with the TL. But if there is a totally new design for 06 then I am anxious to see it.

andre1969

along the lines of the way Nissan improved the Altima's interior a bit for the 2005 models?

ateixeira

I have not seen it yet, either, but everyone keeps telling me it's a lot better than it was at launch.

Carlos Ghosn is a genius but they don't nickname him "le cost cutter" for nothing. Now that the product is worthy they are re-investing.

I prefer Acura's interiors, but I find Infiniti's sporty nature (in general) more appealing.

-juice

andre1969

about the Altima, compared to the Accord. I like the Altima's style and "attitude" better than the Accord, but the Accord's interior is just much more appealing to me. If Nissan would maybe throw another 50 bucks into the interior, they'd really have a nice car.

anythngbutgm

Well they did a great job with the M, so if they put even 90% of the same effort into the G, I'll be happy. Now if they'd add the 6 speeder to the G35x, I'll cross-shop with the AWD TL when it's time

anonymousposts

M was an also-ran when it was first introduced. They had to seriously update the interior and exterior to make it a contender.

Don't really see how you can fault the MDX. It was released 5 years ago and is still competitive in it's class.

nvbanker

This isn't the Infiniti forum (I'm not sure there is one anymore, that's how much interest they generate these days, though I tried to start one once, it died soon after) but I just sold my last Infiniti last month. What I always liked about Infniti, they have now lost with the Renault influence. Oh, sure they look better on the outside, but they are much cheaper feeling on the inside, and their quality is now much more suspect than it used to be. They're putting out some unusual product that needs a lot of work lately, such as the Titan, Armada & QX-56 with all their problems. To me, they've become the Chrysler of Japan now, and I'm not longer interested.

anythngbutgm

Funny, because I actually liked the first M alot. Had that mean muscle-car feeling to it. Kind of like a badass sedan of an old Mopar IMO. No apologies, just attitude.

NV, you had an older I30 right? I still think Infiniti has been doing a respectable job of pulling itself out of the basement, but they might be jumping too quickly into large vehicle segments like the ones you mentioned.

PF_Flyer

Since this is a topic about Honda, let's not veer off into Infiniti. There are PLENTY of active Infiniti discussions. To find them, just type Infiniti if the Search Forums box in the left sidebar.

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ateixeira

To Acura's credit, they've been more consistent than Infiniti. Of course they weren't bought out by Renault, nor did they have the crisis that preceeded that buyout.

-juice

nippononly

is so upsy downsy the last 15 years you can't really be sure what you are getting if you buy new today, IMO. Honda and Acura both certainly don't have that problem.

I was looking up an old car in the book today, and it struck me that in 1986, when Honda had only three models on the market here, they elected to launch the Acura brand, a move which almost doubled their model count (although both Acuras were just repackaged and rebodied versions of two existing Hondas). A bold move.

Compare to Lexus: in 1990 when it was launched there were already nine Toyota models on the market here (including trucks), and only one of the two Lexi was a rebadged Toyota (ES250).

Today there are eight Lexi and about 20 Toyotas if you include the Scions. They still exist in the same ratio though, four of the Lexi are rebadged and repackaged Toyotas (RX, GX, LX, ES) and four are not. OTOH, Acura actually has models that are not just reworked U.S.-market Hondas, at least not beyond platform sharing (40% in fact - the TSX and the RL). Even the RSX, while mostly Honda Civic underneath, has a unique engine not used in any American Honda (the type-S 2.0), and even the TL uses a different V-6 than its sibling-under-the-skin, the Accord. From that perspective, Acura has made more progress forward than Lexus has. Never thought of it that way.

varmint

If I may be completely anal for a second the Pilot is a rebadged MDX, not the other way around.

Looking at the MDX right now, it does appear a bit dated vs. the new RX330, the new ML, and the FX35. But the MDX is in its final year of production. Five years ago, it soundly spanked the ML320 and gave the RX300 a run for its money. Acura sold them at a premium above MSRP and had long waiting lists. The MDX was SUV the equivalent of the Honda Odyssey. Right now, the MDX should be a lame duck contender, but the things still sell for well above invoice.

It was a huge success relative to Honda's ability to produce it. They could have sold twice as many if they weren't building the Ody and MDX in the same plant.

I agree that Infiniti certainly has a stronger model line when it comes to performance. But when talking about brand cache, there's more criteria than just performance. Mercedes-Benz and Lexus do offer a few performance models, but the most successful cars and trucks in their line-up are the most tame. The top seller for Lexus is the RX330 floatmobile. Second to that is the ES330.

Infiniti has gobs of potential, but they're not in the big leagues just yet. Neither is Acura. But I do think Acura has been at it longer, reaches more buyers, and, even though Acura is not growing as fast as Infiniti this year, has an equal chance of being the next big player in the long run.

explorerx4

name 1 person who bought a corolla because of superior engine performance in the last 20 years. :confuse:

nvbanker

I can't name one person who has bought a Corolla in the past 20 years..... whatever that means......

nippononly

my goodness, I can't even remember what I could possibly have said, or WHEN I said it for that matter. What are you replying to there??!!

I know plenty of people who have bought Corollas in the last few years, but you're right, I don't think they bought them for racecar performance. Did I imply Corolla is a hot rod? It was the fastest among a large group of compact cars in a magazine comparo about a year back.

I bet the '06 Civic will give the existing Corolla a run for its money.

ateixeira

Perhaps the context was that the Corolla's base engine has more HP than the Civic's, 130 to 115?

-juice

davem2001

I just bought a new Corolla because of superior engine performance - do I get a prize?

davem2001

Just kidding...but seriously....I agree, not too many people traditionally bought a Corolla for any kind of performance... But, recently, (2004 or 2005 model year) they have a XRS model with a DOHC engine that makes 170hp, I think it also has a 6 speed manual, I'd have to check...

andre1969

bought an '03 Corolla, but engine performance had little to do with it. Rather, it was the combination of performance, fuel economy, seating position, comfort, and price that did it for him.

ateixeira

They added the "S" model which was cosmetic, and that sold well plus it brought in younger buyers. Image is everything I guess.

Then they added the XRS, recently, and that indeed gets the powertrain from the Matrix XRS/Celica GT-S. Perhaps they had left over engines after cancelling the Celica.

-juice

nippononly

I think it just made sense given that the Matrix already had this powertrain, and the Matrix is identical under the skin to the Corolla in every other respect, so...

Plus, most manufacturers have a hotted up version of their compact car (SI, SRT-4, Cobalt SS, Spec V, Jetta GLI, SVT...aw shucks, that last one is gone)

The next SI will be a coupe again like 99-00, and as much as I hate to admit it, that should bring SI sales back up to historic levels, after four years of relatively disastrous SI sales. I prefer hatches to coupes, but I am apparently in a distinct minority here in the U.S.!

davem2001

Maybe Honda is missing out by not having an Si version of the 4 door Civic? Think about it, most of the other "hot" cars in that segment are 4 doors ....

varmint

Most of the other cars on that list don't offer coupes, whether they be suped up or not. (They don't have a coupe to supe... can I say that?!?!)

Honda is one of the few companies can still sell an inexpensive coupe. They have coupe versions of the Accord and Civic, while Toyota, Nissan, and others don't offer anything beyond a sedan and hatch, or a sedan and wagon.

davem2001

What would it hurt for Honda to offer an Si version of the 4 door for people who want 4 doors? - most of the competition (Sentra Spec V, Corolla XRS, etc...even the Mitsu Evo and Subie WRX at the higher end) are 4 doors.

ateixeira

GLI is also gone, now that the new Jetta is here. R32 is also gone, but you could add EVO and STi if price isn't a factor. And there are Ralliart and plain WRX models if it is.

Hatch body style is OK, I just think the current Si wasn't styled right, the windshield is bigger than the hood!

-juice

andre1969

that Honda is still selling a coupe model of the Civic! AFAIK, the only other mainstream small coupe out there is the Cobalt. I'm not counting the Sunfire. And while the Focus does offer a 2-door, it's a hatchback and not a conventional coupe.

I guess there's still enough of a market to still support a few small, inexpensive coupes, though. I'm starting to see a lot of Cobalts pop up, and the Civic has always seemed popular as a coupe model. Toyota might have been able to keep up the audience for a Corolla-based coupe, but they tried taking it on a performance-oriented route back around 1984, with the RWD SR-5, when all the others went FWD. It just didn't have enough mass appeal though, although I thought the generation that ran from 1988-1992 was especially attractive. It seemed a big step up from a regular Corolla, or Civic though.

davem2001

Well, in addition to not looking good - a couple other things that I didn't like that are hopefully fixed in the '06

1. 5 speed vs. 6 speed manual - should have had 6
2. The shifter coming out of the dashboard, like on a truck

davem2001

Coupes in general just aren't as popular as they used to be.....Also, Toyota does have an entry in the "inexpensive coupe" market now with the Scion tC.

ateixeira

That shifter did look like a tree sprouting out of the dash, but Alfa Romeos used to have that so some found it nostalgic.

I didn't like that either, though.

tC has a hatch, doesn't it? Though it manages to look like a coupe, even if it does.

-juice

davem2001

Well, that's a good point, too .... Americans will buy hatchbacks as long as they don't blatantly look like hatchbacks.... the Acura Integra (RSX) and the Scion tC are two quick examples off the top of my head....

ateixeira

Too bad the hatch never caught on, I bet we won't get the next one. Europe gets a cool 5 door where the rear doors are hidden; the door handle in the D-pillar is so well concealed it almost looks like a 3 door.

The new coupe looks better as well, at least.

-juice

davem2001

Yeah, I saw that Euro spec 5 door, too - it looks nice

I'm also glad to see that the new Civic doesn't have the "upside down" headlights and taillights from the current Accord.

nippononly

don't forget, Jetta GLI is only gone until August this year, after which it is BACK, 200 hp turbo, six speed, and all.

Honda is dumb not to bring the European five-door here for the Civic line. That style of car has been increasing dramatically in sales the last few years and with the gas prices going throug the roof, sales will only increase - they make a good SUV substitute for the folks that never really needed that much space in the first place.

OTOH, the Fit will be a five-door won't it? So while it is smaller, maybe Honda feels this will fill the "niche" well enough.

varmint: Toyota does have a Camry coupe, it is the Solara.

I can't see how it would cost Honda much to offer the Civic SI in four doors as well as two. Why not? And it would go head to head with all the other hotted up compacts. Maybe Honda feels that little segment is already flooded, though.

varmint

Davem - I don't see why Honda can't offer a sedan Si, either. They could. It might complicate the production line a wee bit, but I think it's doable. I see a few minor caveats, but they are minor.

#1 is Canada. In that market, they have the Acura EL, so building a sporty sedan in the Honda line might be a conflict fo their Acura dealers.

#2 is simply marketing. When you see a Civic Hatch, you know it's an Si. If Honda starts making Si versions of the volume sedan as well as the coupe, then none of them will be special. "Hey look! Yet another Civic!"

But that wasn't the point I was making. Nissan, Saturn, Dodge, and the rest are not offering suped up sedans because they thing sedans are way cool. They are offering sedans because they don't have a coupe.

Nippon - Good point regarding the Solara. Forgot about that one. But I think the essential point still holds true. There's no Altima coupe, not Mazda6 coupe, no Sentra coupe, no Neon coupe, no Focus coupe, no ION coupe, no WRX coupe, no Corolla coupe, no Galant coupe, no Evo coupe, no Sephia coupe, no Elantra coupe, no Malibu coupe, no Mazda3 coupe... I'm sure this list could probably go on for a while.

Now it's true that many of these cars are offered as a wagon or a hatch instead of a coupe. Off the top of my head I can think of only two that do both. Yet... and I know this isn't scientific... based on what I see on the road, Honda's coupes seem to be doing a whole lot better than anybody's wagons or hatches.

nippononly

I am beginning to chuckle on this whole coupe thing. Technically there is no ION coupe, but really it is like a three-door coupe, even if it opens up to be a hatch at the back. It looks like a coupe, and in fact is the body style of the RedLine, isn't it?

I bet Honda could outsell the Corolla XRS and the Sentra Spec V quite easily with a four-door Civic SI sedan.