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Has Honda's run - run out?
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I'm betting Honda could out-sell the XRS and Spec V with a two-door Civic Si.
I'm actually impressed though, that they were nice enough to break out coupe and sedan volume. It'd be nice if the others did that!
varmint, you may be right that they can outsell XRS/Spec V with just the two-door, but imagine what they could do if they had both!
Of course, with the new Sentra coming out, the Spec V bar may be about to move up.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Is the new Stratus/Sebring a joint venture with Mitsu or a DCX design? Haven't heard much about it ....
The new V-6 in these cars will have more power too. Perhaps a 10-15 hp "bump" is in order for Accord in the fall, along with the cosmetic surgery?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
They even used separate names when they first came out - the Dodge was the Stratus (4 door) and Avenger (2 door), the Chrysler was the Cirrus (4 door) and Sebring (2 door)....
My impression is, they are totally dropping the 2 doors.....so the question is, are the new 4 doors shared with Mitsu (like the current 2 doors) or are they a DCX design (like the current 4 doors)?
Coupes are ideal to carry the torch for sportiness in the USA, but Mazda tried and it didn't sell well (MX-6). Subaru had an Impreza RS coupe but when the sedan came out 90% of buyers picked that. Can't blame 'em.
Plus, you can't occupy every slot. Mazda and Subaru have decided to offer wagons and hatchbacks instead.
-juice
True. Mazda is one of the few that offers both a hatch and a wagon. I think their strategy is to offer a sedan with coupish styling. And then the utility variants.
The only problem I see with that is the lack of distinction. You can tell the difference between an Accord coupe and sedan. You can tell the difference between a Civic coupe and sedan. The coupish sedan option does provide that kind of separation from the family drivers.
And oddly, the MazdaSpeed version will only come as a sedan, not as the sleeker/lower 5 door.
-juice
I haven't heard anything about a replacement for these cars in ages. Last I heard it was going to be a joint venture between Chrysler, Hyundai, and Mitsubishi, and the 4-cyl engine, at least, was going to have a lot of Hyundai influence. However, I'm sure a lot of the specs have changed since I heard this.
Just guessing, but I bet the 4 door is lighter/stiffer than the 5 door hatch
I think it's fine for Honda to go with a coupe in this market, not everyone should be in the same segment. Perhaps the reason for the complaints is the nostalgia for the '84 and '88 Civic Si hatch models.
I we were buying them more, Honda would still be selling them! LOL
-juice
I think if Honda were going to do a hot hatch with roots in their American line-up, they should go all the way and bring back a CRX. The Civic Si coupe would serve as the performance model for the Civic line. Let something like a Fit-based CRX with maybe 140 hp serve as the el-cheapo tossable hatch. It would take some of the heat off the Civic line and bolster the image of the rather small Fit in our market of over-sized cars.
Cooper worked for Mini, so a small hot hatch can sell if done right. I like the CRX idea, for a 2 seater they would really have to keep the costs down, though.
-juice
Think about this though...coupes and sedans are as drastic of a different body style as sedan and hatch or sedan and wagon. Most other manufacturers, if they do a different body style, do a hatch or wagon. Honda and Chevy are the only oddballs doing coupes instead. Chevy pretty much gives away their cars anyway, thanks to rebates, so that explains the Cobalt coupe selling. And if you check Civic prices, you'll notice that the 2 door coupe is discounted...it MSRPs for less than a sedan at the same trim level, so people might be trying to save a few bucks going that way.
But with the market starting a minor love-affair with hatches again, Honda might benefit from making the next Civic coupe into a hatch a la tC or Accent...2 door coupe with a liftback instead of a trunk (rather than the Si style...that shape really only works for 4 doors).
I just don't get the whole 2 door thing if you're still stuck with a trunk...what's the point?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Pull the RSX from Acura and make it a Honda (The Acura TSX makes a credible base model for Acura now). Rename the RSX to Prelude Sport or CRX or something (Civic Si name needs to go on hiatus after the most recent one) and sell it for $20k (maybe ditch the auto climate control to hit the mark).
However, this smells far too much like common sense, so Honda won't do it, leaving Toyota and Mazda to conquer the market.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
As for the Civic Si - IMO, they just made a mistake in making it a hatch instead of a 2 door coupe as it was in the previous generation....American's just don't like hatchs (unless they are styled to not look like a hatch, a la the RSX or the Scion tC, etc..). If the Civic Si was the top version of the Civic Coupe, they would have sold twice as many....
I think the key word there is "minor". Honda currently sells 3 hot hatch variants. The Si, the RSX, and the RSX type S. The minor love-affair with hatches has resulted in very minor sales for Honda. Meanwhile, they do very well with their coupes, which is a body style that very few offer and Honda already dominates.
If Honda had offered a Civic Si coupe-ish hatch, what would have separated it from the RSX? Nothing. Hence, I think the design of the current hatch was the correct choice. The extra space and functionality gave it something the RSX doesn't offer. I just wish the price and styling were a match for that notion.
I disagree with the notion of making the S2000 an Acura, though. That car is wayyyy to raw to fit under a luxury name plate. If a Honda and Acura were to make a trade it should have been RSX for Prelude. The Prelude was too expensive as a Honda, but the price might have been justifiable with an Acura-esque interior and features.
As Nippon wrote, many enthusiasts are expecting the next generation Civic Coupe Si to replace the market niche currently occupied by the RSX. Sites like TOV claim to have confirmation that the RSX is going bye-bye.
If true, I think it's a smart move. It would be step one on resolving a few issues. Acura's brand-image could stand to shrug off the boy racer cars. Honda needs a higher level of budget performance without encroaching on Acura's toes. Let's just hope the car makes as much sense as the business case.
RSX already has a name used worldwide, the Integra.
Auto mags have been showing the Nissan Sport Model, in the CRX class. It should be quite a car. It shares the same platform as the Renault Meganne, the only car known to have beaten Mini Cooper in a British car magazine comparo. The bad news is it might not be here for another 2 years.
I think Honda should revive the CRX, to go against Maz3, Nissan and Scion.
I still say, if they put the better engine/suspension, etc... in the current Civic COUPE and called it the Si, they would have sold twice as many as the current Si hatchback...The previous generation Si was a Coupe. The '06 will be a coupe...
I do agree, all the signs sort of point to the RSX going away....Acura is trying to move a little further upscale and away from the "boy racer" stuff - leave that for the Honda badged cars. From the previews I've seen, the '06 Civic is going to be very close to the RSX in size, maybe use the same engines, etc... It would make some sense for the RSX to fade away.... then again, I'm sure Acura dealers wouldn't be too thrilled about that... they still sell a lot of RSXs.
Even though I think this is an overdue move for the Acura brand, I must admit a single tear will fall from my eye when it finally happens. I would love to see them keep a Honda Integra for America, with a faster powertrain than the fastest Civic, and priced halfway between the fastest Civic and the Accord V-6 coupe. I think they could do that quite easily, although I know that hypothetical Integra might not fit in as well in other world markets Honda is in.
RSX didn't break the 20K mark for sales last year, and despite the '05 refresh with additional power and more buttoned-down performance for the 'S' (not to mention additional sound damping for both trims), sales have FALLEN slightly this year. What was Prelude's sales volume when it finally got cancelled?
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
That would probably be true...IF there had been a reasonable price reduction as well.
IMO, the current Si hatch was a dud for two reasons. (1) It wasn't extreme enough for the target market. And (2), it wasn't pretty enough. The pretty part has nothing to do with it being a coupe-ish styled hatch like the RSX. The Mazda3 hatch isn't coupe-ish and neither is the Mini or Focus. It just needed more racy styling, period.
"What was Prelude's sales volume when it finally got cancelled?" - Nippon
I'm not sure it really matters. With the RSX being based on the global small car platform, it's probably cheaper to produce than the Prelude. They could afford to sell fewer RSXs.
That's because the only hatch Honda offers is the Civic Si. As we've all been saying, the RSX, while it SHOULD be a Honda, isn't. It's an Acura. That doesn't help Honda's model line.
Compare, if you will, this current Si with the Mazda3s, the Focus ZX3, the Spectra5, the Golf, or the Elantra GT. Any of those other vehicles have the Civic Si beat on feature content and are significantly cheaper at MSRP than the Civic Si. Come to think of it, the RSX base model has the Civic Si beat for about the same MSRP.
If Honda had offered a Civic Si coupe-ish hatch, what would have separated it from the RSX? Nothing.
Hence, why isn't the RSX a Honda? The RSX is pretty low-end for a luxo-name, and it also leaves Honda a pretty low ceiling for the Civic. However, it would make a better Civic Si than the Civic Si. The scary part is, with the next Civic, if prices go up (which it sounds like they might a bit), the Civic EX might be competing with the RSX! For certain the new Si will be competing with the RSX. With similar bodystyles.
Anyway, very few offer coupes because there's no additional money in it for them to redesign their sedans that way. Americans are finally becoming accepting of hatchbacks again, and most manufacturers already have those designed for overseas, so it's just a matter of tweaking. It's funny that that's a market that Honda has abandoned here...the CRX was one of the better hatches. As of the upcoming Civic re-design, Honda will be the ONLY manufacturer not selling a hatch in the US in it's "everyman" nameplate lineup (GM should have the HHR soon, and already has the Malibu Maxx and Vibe, Nissan has the Cube on the way). No, the CR-V doesn't count. Honda's only hatch is being sold as a $20k "luxury" car alongside $40k vehicles.
Yes, the RSX puts a tight ceiling on the Civic line. I've already written as much. Yes, the RSX is a little low-brow for the luxury market. I've written that as well. And, yes, the RSX/integra has always been compared with non-luxury sport coupes like the Celica and Eclipse.
Why isn't the RSX a Honda?
Because in the 1980's when Acura was started, they needed cars to sell. They had the Legend, but no one was certain how well the US market would take to a larger Japanese sedan. So they gave Acura dealers something they knew they could sell... a hot little performance car. At the time, the closest conflict with the Integra was the Prelude, not the Civic.
That has changed and that is why Honda is probably going to eliminate the RSX. It is widely rumored that the RSX goes away next year.
As for the rest, Honda sells more coupes than some of the sedans you listed. Perhaps the others offer hatches because they know they can't compete with Honda's coupes?
I hope they don't do something lame like offer a two-door TSX as a "replacement". TSX is a much bigger car. And I don't want to see a rebadged Accord coupe as the next RSX either.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Are you having problems too? I've been having problems with the spell check feature for several days now. I've reported it, but so far it's not fixed.
Bob
A line-up consisting of nothing but sedans is so booooooring. All the luxury carmakers suffer from this. Yes, spend a bunch more money and you can have an SUV instead of a sedan, whoopdedoo. At least the Europeans have wagons as well.
I was really pulling for the Mercedes "sport coupe" just for this reason: sedan boredom. Alas, the execution on Mercedes' part was terrible,and it is going to go away. The A3 is my next great hope!
But the Japanese (even Honda) are so conservative in their business models, that they won't do anything even a little "out of the box" with their luxury marques. The closest we got was Lexus' IS300 SportCross, a model it didn't ever promote, which consequently no-one ever bought, and which is now going away as a result.
And of course, Honda's idea for the next Acura? The RDX, another SUV (mini-ute).
:-(
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
But what about wagons? What about hatchbacks, AKA "sport wagons"? What about some interesting shapes and designs? The TSX and TL both look angry and edgy to me, whereas the RL looks like everyone's kindly old grandfather.
Right now, the best-looking luxury sedan, IMO, is the Mercedes CLS. Of course, from a functional standpoint this car is ridiculous: rear seat passengers are going to have to do the limbo to get through the rear doors, or else hit their heads on the roof as they get in the car.
I just wish Honda would think a little more outside the box, or at least make cars that look more like their home market cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
There is a lot more that Honda could do the think "Outside the Box" but I think they're doing pretty well at being innovative.
BTW, my wifes' business partner just picked up a new CLS500 "designo" edition to replace his 1yo E500 4matic. That car is unreal to put it bluntly... :shades:
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Acura cannot repeat the mistake they made with the CL-S. The defining performance attribute of the CL-S was the 260 hp engine. As soon as Acura introduced that engine, fans of the TL demanded the same thing. As soon as Acura provided it, sales of the CL fell from "not very strong" to "pitiful". Whatever makes the next coupe special cannot be something easily shared with the sedan.
With that in mind, this is my suggestion for a TSX coupe.
A TSX coupe could potentially cure the "big problem" with the sedan... weight. With a shorter wheelbase and less focus on the backseat, Acura could cut the weight down. The sedan could not share this.
A coupe gives Acura a chance to play with styling that is a bit less conservative. I agree that a line consisting of nothing but sedans is not very exciting (though it sells like gangbusters). Adding a low volume coupe sorta frosts the cake.
As often as I see posts stating that the RSX should have been a Honda, I also see posts stating that the Prelude could have been an Acura. The TSX coupe would fill that role.
Acura's styling is more conservative, but it's just done very well. The TSX, TL, and upcoming RDX all look pretty good without going over the top. The RL is also nicely styled when you consider the age bracket it is targeting. Though I do think the grill from the JDM Legend would go a long way toward making it appear more aggressive. That simple change could do a great deal for the car's image.
IMO, one of Honda's big strengths in the 1970's -80's was that they only had 3 or 4 models to worry about - they could constantly update them and replace them on a 4 year cycle like clockwork.
They have so many more models now - maybe too many? S2000, Insight, Civic, RSX, TSX, Accord, TL, RL, Ody, Pilot, Ridgeline, MDX, CR-V, Element, upcoming RDX - plus domestic (Japan only) and Euro only models like the Jazz and Fit and others....
Well, I'm sure my wife would take issue with that one...
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
It's not at all uncommon for niche cars like the S2000 and NSX to go for several years. I mean, the NSX is unforgivable at this point, but the Dodge Viper went almost as long. So, I think those cars are less of an issue.
Juice - Honda has publicly admitted that the Insight is around only for bragging rights. They dust one off for the Bibendum challenge and run circles around everybody else. Then put it back in storage.