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Hybrid Diesels?

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  • According the KPMG's Hong Kong office:

    "sales of saloons (covering small and medium sized passenger cars) during the first half of 2004 were up 32 per cent; an impressive growth rate but still well down on the 70 percent of 2003. Actual unit sales in those six months were 1.1 million – matching the total sales figure from 2002. Those six months realised a profit of US$5.36 billion, representing an increase of 14 per cent on the same period last year. However, this still represents a significant slow-down from 2003's own growth rate and is indicative of the manufacturers' shrinking profit margins."

     

    But here's the klincher for the Chinese market:

    "While profit margins are being eaten into, they are still healthy at 20-30 per cent, compared to a global average of five per cent."

     

    Which means that VW's profits could be LESS if they increase US sales unless they also increased world-wide production, because they don't want to steal potential sales volume from China (where profits are 4x to 6x for the same vehicle).
  • I asked for SALES numbers. i.e. Which market buys the most cars? China, US, or EU?

     

    I'm guessing it's the EU. 450 million citizens, industrialized, with lots of cash to spend & factories to drive to.

     

    troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    "China's auto market cooled last year but sales were still up 15.5 percent to 5.07 million vehicles after a gain of 34.2 percent in 2003. Passenger car sales, the hottest market segment, rose 15.17 percent to 2.33 million units in 2004 but were well below the blistering 75.28 percent pace seen in 2003."

     

    So China sold 5.07 million cars last year. The USA sells about 17 million. I'd bet Europe sells somewhere between those two numbers

     

    http://www.thestandard.com.hk/stdn/std/China/GB08Ad01.html

     

    After further searching, Western Europe sold 14.5 million cars in 2004:

     

    "Sales for the 15 European Union countries and the three member states of Efta, the European free trade area, rose by 7.7 per cent to 1,043,669 in December. The increase meant that sales for the whole of 2004 ended 2.1 per cent ahead at 14,516,879 compared with the previous year."

     

    http://icbirmingham.icnetwork.co.uk/0150business/0200news/tm_obje- - - ctid=15079391&method=full&siteid=50002&headline=indus- - - try-ends-year-on-high-name_page.html
  • Okay, so the claim "China is the biggest car market" has been refuted.

     

    I knew that was bogus. Mission accomplished.

     

    And thanks!

     

    troy
  • tempusvntempusvn Posts: 119
    Why you will want a gasoline-powered 'strong' hybrid, and why diesel-hybrids won’t make it in North America.

     

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=807

     

    Diesel-electric hybrid cars make no real sense in North America, and not much elsewhere. Period. That's a pretty strong statement, but suspend disbelief, read the following and then make up your own mind.
  • "Strong Hybrids" don't even exist yet.

     

    And which engine would you choose for that hybrid?

    - 45% energy efficient

    - 55% energy efficient

     

    I'd choose the 55% engine, and that would be a diesel. Diesel & hybridization are a natural combination.

     

    troy
  • I'm not impressed by that evworld.com article. I don't think the author proves his points. Diesels are 30% more efficient than gasoline engines and more durable; that's why they're the main stay in long-haul trucks. They are too heav for aircraft, though. In mass production, their higher first cost will come down. The problem, of course, with the hybrids is no one knows their battery life or true replacement cost; this factor should be put in any realistic economic calculations.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote transpower-"The problem, of course, with the hybrids is no one knows their battery life or true replacement cost; this factor should be put in any realistic economic calculations."-end quote

     

    Well, with 7 years of Toyota Priuses on the road in Japan, and as of a few months ago Toyota declaring they have "never replaced a hybrid battery due to wear and tear," I think it's pretty safe to at minimum say they will last at least 7 years, don't you?
  • Seven years is pretty good, admittedly--but what happens after that? Look, I'd buy a Diesel-Hybrid if the price were reasonable--which it would be if we could get to large-scale mass production. I just think the author's arguments were weak because not all economic factors were included.
  • yerth10yerth10 Posts: 428
    Is it possible to refine most of the Crude-Oil into Diesel.

    For ex : Today, if Crude-Oil refining yields 90 % gasoline & 10 % Diesel, can we change it to 90 % Diesel & 10 % Gasoline.

    If not, there is no use in supporting Diesels. Any comments from our European friends.
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,135
    Gasoline is the harder product to retrieve. Some crude oil comes out of the ground so sweet it is used directly in diesel engines. A lower grade of diesel is bunker oil, that is used to power cargo ships. It has a very high sulfur content that is harmful to the environment. That is the smog you see drifting up from Long Beach Harbor. Before gasoline cars the gas was disposed of after they distilled the kerosene.

    Gasoline was not invented it is a natural by-product of the petroleum industry, kerosene being the principal product. Gasoline is produced by distillation, the separating of the volatile, more valuable fractions of crude petroleum. However, what was invented were the numerous processes and agents needed to improve the quality of gasoline.

    According to Chemcases.com, "the invention and development of the automobile as primary mode of personal transportation required a parallel development of the fuels that would power the automobiles. Hydrocarbon fuels were an integral component of society in the 19th century as a source of light. Coal gas, camphene, kerosene from the petroleum in the ground all competed to light the lamps of the cities and the country."

    Automobile engines demanded large amounts of petroleum. The early refiners could convert only a small proportion of their crude oil to gasoline for cars. As the number of automobiles increased, a requirement for higher quality in the fuels was in demand to prevent damaging knocking that robbed the engines of efficiency and power as automobile engineers sought to design high compression auto engines.

    The processes that were invented to improve the yield of gasoline from crude oil were known as cracking. In petroleum refining, cracking is a process by which heavy hydrocarbon molecules are broken up into lighter molecules by means of heat, pressure, and sometimes catalysts. Cracking is the number one process for the commercial production of gasoline.

    http://tonto.eia.doe.gov/oog/info/gdu/gasdiesel.asp
  • Every barrel of Oil yields:
    - 2 gallons of diesel
    - 1 gallon of gasoline
    Simply by switching cars from gasoline-to-diesel, we reduce our imports by HALF. Isn't that worth supporting?

    .

    The Honda, Ford, and Toyota Hybrids are parallel "mild" hybrids.

    But here is a true parallel "full" hybrid.
    - Electric Motor at highway speed (>65mph)
    - -or- Combustion Engine at highway speed
    - -and- has a plug for recharging, so people can drive to work every day without burning a single drop of mideast oil

    http://www.evworld.com/view.cfm?section=article&storyid=312

    troy
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,300
    Of course, you are ASSUMING that when you use that plug to recharge, the electricity going in has, in no part, been produced using mideast oil.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • Most electricity is produced with American-made coal.

    The rest comes from American-made hydro, uranium, et cetera.

    No mideast involvement at all.
    troy
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,300
    Well, look what you went and did. You made me research something. ;)

    No mideast involvement at all.

    actually, whereas the percentage is small, there is still involvement:
    http://epsa.redesign.matrixgroup.net/Competition/sources_mp.cfm

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • SylviaSylvia Posts: 1,636
    You are on the verge of going well off-topic here.
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,300

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • That was also message 195.

    The author of the article has an interesting style of mixing readily accepted facts with totally bogus crap in such a way that it sounds believable -- reminding me of my ex-wife.

    "diesel engines only shows real advantages in light vehicles at low loads" was as far as I read before determining that this idiot is so un-informed that my time would be better spent researching powerplants in People magazine!

    I guess the author thinks that all highway semi- tractors are gas powered for their superior ability to deliver continuous, high levels of power and all Honda Civics are diesels because they are light vehicles with low loads........

    I guess there is no editing or reviewing of articles for technical merit before getting posted to "evworld"?

    PS: Diesel aircraft engines are one of the hottest developing technologies right now.
  • With their high torque (read: force) diesel is actually better for moving large masses. You're right. The author is badly misinformed.

    troy
  • supcrdssupcrds Posts: 11
    PS: Diesel aircraft engines are one of the hottest developing technologies right now. >>>>>>

    Do you mean I.C. Diesel aircraft engines? Isn't jet fuel VERY close to Diesel?
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,135
    This is one of several companies building diesel piston aircraft engines. Much more efficient than high priced Av Gas engines.

    http://www.deltahawkengines.com/index.htm
  • Yes, I.C. Diesel aircraft engines.
    Besides Deltahawk here, there is a company in England that has been in production for a few years.

    One of the driving factors is that "AV gas" is going to become illegal (I can't recall if its the EPA or who is killing it) so engines that don't rely on high octane fuel will be a huge market shortly.

    Does anyone have any info on the disappearing AV-gas?

    But speaking of hybrids ... I don't anticipate seeing hybrid aircraft engines soon :)
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,135
    I don't anticipate seeing hybrid aircraft engines soon

    I guess stranger things have happened. Here is a diesel aircraft engine that is certified for both Cessna and Piper single engine planes. With AV gas over 4 bucks these I think burn #1 diesel which is a jet fuel or close relative.

    http://www.centurion-engines.com/c17/c17_start.htm
  • A turbocharged diesel hybrid would be extremely efficient however the costs of the parts and production would be too great. The car would be so expensive (25000-30000) that it just wouldn't sell. Companies should start looking into new types of diesel engines like the rotary was experimented with for gas. There may be several even more efficient designs.
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