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Hybrid Diesels?

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  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,307
    well, i think your numbers are pretty accurate. if you combine a couple of current offerings on the market, you'll see that it shouldn't be too bad. A hybrid Honda is about $3K more than its gas counterpart. VW offers turbodiesels at a decent price. So if I were to take a $21,385 base Jetta TDI and add $3K for the hybrid upgrade, I get $24,385. heck, could always go for a Beetle GLS TDI hybrid for $23,685. So that's pretty close to your 25k number. Personally, I don't find that very expensive, especially for what I think might result in a REAL-WORLD 60 mpg.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote qbrozen="VW offers turbodiesels at a decent price. So if I were to take a $21,385 base Jetta TDI and add $3K for the hybrid upgrade, I get $24,385."-end quote

    From what I have read, it's not that easy or that cheap. Most quotes I have read have said that hybridizing a diesel car will add $5K-$8K to the sales price.

    "...a Wired magazine article that claims that both GM and DaimlerChrysler are making efforts to bring out hybrid diesel passenger cars. The manufacturers are claiming this feature would add $8000 to the cost of a vehicle, but, as Jamais notes, "Automakers currently suing the state of California to block the implementation of CO2 emission reduction rules have a vested interest in showing that making their vehicles more efficient would be too costly."

    http://www.wired.com/news/print/0,1294,65273,00.html

    So if they could do it in a 5 passenger car or SUV for $30K and get real world 70+ MPG, I would be interested. I can already get 60 MPG from a Hybrid....
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,307
    I can already get 60 MPG from a Hybrid....

    You can? Because everything I've read from owners and independent tests say they can't get anywhere near that number. Most I've seen have been in the 45 range.

    I can't really speak to the cost of "hybridizing" a diesel. I'm not sure why it would cost more than gas. If anybody here has some tech info to why that may be true, I'd be interested in learning. Thanks.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    There is a driver of an Insight whose lifetime MPG is 92.5 miles per gallon.

    Prius and HCH drivers who learn the game like a pro are getting near 60.

    So it's not a fault of the technology...diesel hybrids can probably better that, but it would have to be affordable.....
  • "Most quotes I have read have said that hybridizing a diesel car will add $5K-$8K to the sales price."

    .

    Yeah, but they say the same thing about Priuses and Civic Hybrids. The fact that the prius/civic exists in hybridized versions, prove they don't know what they're talking about.

    I think it more likely that ~$2000 would be added... $1000 for the battery, $1000 for the motor.

    troy
  • "So it's not a fault of the technology...diesel hybrids can probably better that, but it would have to be affordable....."

    .

    The Lupo 3L already gets 88mpg highway, 14.5 0-60 time, and sells for ~$20,000. Add Honda's motor for ~$2000.

    Now you have a Lupo 3L Hybrid, which still gets 88mpg highway, but with 10.5 second 0-60 performance (same as the prius or civic), for a reasonable price of $22,000.

    .

    ASIDE: VW is also working on a 130mpg version of the Lupo (3 seats).

    troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    qutoe E-Troy:"Yeah, but they say the same thing about Priuses and Civic Hybrids. The fact that the prius/civic exists in hybridized versions, prove they don't know what they're talking about."-end quote

    No, I don't recall anyone "in the know" saying that about Priuses and Civics...Can't recall any story I ever read which put the hybridization that high.

    On the contrary, almost EVERY STORY about diesel hybrids mentions the "making it affordable" issue.

    Example 1:

    "Hybrid buses retail at a hefty premium, however, as they typically are between $125,000 and $200,000 more than their conventional counterparts. NYCT says this is mitigated by an estimated $100,000 savings in fuel costs over a 12-year life span, as well as maintenance savings on brake components."

    http://motortrend.com/features/news/112_news19/

    Example 2:

    "Integrating both hybrid and diesel technology could add up to $8,000 to the price of a vehicle, which may limit its appeal to American consumers. "Even (with gas at) $3 a gallon, $8,000 (more) is a lot to pay."

    http://www.wired.com/news/autotech/0,2554,66949,00.html?tw=wn_tophead_1

    Example 3:

    "A Toyota diesel hybrid truck that went on sale in November 2003, for instance, costs around $10,000 more than its diesel-only version, a third more."

    http://www.climateark.org/articles/reader.asp?linkid=35482

    So I don't know WHY diesel hybrids are so expensive to produce, but it's NOT as simple as throwing $2000 of hybrid components on a Lupo, but I wish it were.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Too bad this ES3 concept diesel hybrid car from Toyota did not make it:

    "I had estimated that by combining common-rail diesel technology with hybrid-electric technology, you should be able to achieve a fuel mileage on the order of 110 to 120 mpg and do so using today's commercial technology.

    Then low and behold, along comes Toyota with their new ES3diesel-electric hybrid car, which at 104 mpg gets very close to what I had predicted a diesel-electric hybrid should be able to achieve."

    http://www.therant.info/archives/000060.html
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Actually, no I don't "hate diesel cars" - but I do VERY MUCH DISLIKE "dirty diesel exhaust" and all the health problems it causes. Even now, every time I pull up beside one of those big noxious diesel pickups at a stop light and their loud rattly exhaust drowns out my conversation and makes my eyes water and makes me cough, I curse the current "dirty diesel" situation, I sure do. :sick:

    But as I have said previously on this board and others, if a car company I trust (Toyota, Honda) can produce a 5 passenger diesel electric hybrid with a real world MPG rating of around 70 MPG, for under $30K, I would be the first one on the waiting list. I would love that combo. :D

    ( But only after "clean" low sulfur diesel or Ultra low sulfur diesel is incorporated into the USA supply chain. )

    I'm just afraid it cannot be done like that for that money. :cry:
  • So what do you think of Toyota's LEV-qualified diesel Avensis?

    troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    I gets about 39 MPG USA, similar to an Accord Hybrid....so nothing near the 70 MPG I'm looking for in a good diesel hybrid....

    If they could hybridize it and get another 30 MPG out of it, sign me up !!! :D
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,307
    whoa, whoa. Now this is a different story.

    First, you said "From what I have read, it's not that easy or that cheap. Most quotes I have read have said that hybridizing a diesel car will add $5K-$8K to the sales price."

    Obviously, that's very different from the quote you gave above:
    Integrating both hybrid and diesel technology could add up to $8,000 to the price of a vehicle

    Now I see why I'm not understanding the price difference. The 2nd quote is estimating the cost of BOTH the diesel upgrade AND hybrid upgrade. And I can probably see where that comes from since upgrading, for instance, to a diesel engine in a Chevy pickup is about a $5K hike. Add that to what I originally said about a $3K hike for hybrid, and you get that proposed total.

    However, this is very different from when I was adding the $3K hybrid upgrade to a pre-existing diesel-powered vehicle.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

  • The diesel option adds about $1000 to the pricetag.

    We're not sure how much hybridization costs, but looking at the Civic LX vs. the Civic Hybrid, I'd say about $2000.

    So, figure $3000 total for converting a gasoline Jetta to a diesel-electric Hybrid.

    troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote E-Troy:"So, figure $3000 total for converting a gasoline Jetta to a diesel-electric Hybrid."-end quote

    As I pointed out in previous posts, that's a too-simplistic way to look at it.

    Does anyone honestly think for ONE SECOND that if VW could put a diesel electric hybrid on the road, in an already established model, that would get 65-70 MPG, that they would not have done it already?

    It simply cannot be done that cheaply. If so, the Toyota ES3 and other diesel hybrid prototypes would have already hit the streets..... :D
  • "Does anyone honestly think for ONE SECOND that if VW could put a diesel electric hybrid on the road, in an already established model, that would get 65-70 MPG, that they would not have done it already? "

    .

    If we follow that line of reasoning, we have to conclude that gasoline-electrics are too expensive also. There are no VW gas-electric hybrids, therefore it can't be done.

    troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Maybe for VW gas electric hybrids ARE too expensive to produce. Not all companies are as efficient as Toyota.

    But I can virtually guarantee you that if you told ANY VW stockholder that VW could make and sell a 65-70 mpg Jetta for $3000 more than the gas version they would move heaven and earth to find out why VW is not cashing in on THAT gold mine.... :D
  • "Maybe for VW gas electric hybrids ARE too expensive to produce. Not all companies are as efficient as Toyota. "

    .

    Maybe, but the VW CEO has already denied that. He simply doesn't like hybrids. He thinks that diesel is the better solution, since a diesel engine is ~25% more energy efficient than a gasoline engine.

    troy
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,137
    It simply cannot be done that cheaply. If so, the Toyota ES3 and other diesel hybrid prototypes would have already hit the streets

    Chrysler never built this diesel hybrid after millions of dollars invested. They did not believe people would pay the added price for diesel hybrid. Today maybe it would sell. Looks like Toyota may have copied Chryslers design?

    The ESX3 costs only about $7,500 more than a comparable gasoline-powered car, down from a $15,000 premium with the ESX2, and $60,000 with the ESX. The ESX3's mild hybrid electric (or "mybrid") powertrain combines a clean diesel engine, electric motor, and lithium-ion battery to achieve 72 miles per gallon (3.3 liters/100 km). That is two miles per gallon better than the fuel efficiency of its predecessor, the ESX2 in 1998, and close to PNGV's goal of up to 80 mpg (2.9 liters/100 km).

    http://www.thecarconnection.com/index.asp?n=156,196&sid=196&article=1715&pf=1
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Add Chrysler to the list that already includes GM and VW.... :cry:
  • gagricegagrice San DiegoPosts: 31,137
    I'm not sure they missed anything. They have the technology still available. I think that the major portion of that $7500 may have been the LiON Batteries. They are much more expensive than NiMH. Most of that money for research was out of our pockets if you remember Clinton's corporate welfare to the automakers called PNGV. We paid for the Hybrid to be developed. The automakers did not think there was any money to be made and put the technology on the back burner. All three automakers came up with 70 mpg plus diesel hybrids on our nickel.

    The Partnership for a New Generation of Vehicles (PNGV) was established in 1993. This cooperative research effort involves seven government agencies, the United States Council for Automotive Research (USCAR), DaimlerChrysler Corp., Ford Motor Co. and General Motors Corp.

    http://www.eere.energy.gov/vehiclesandfuels/facts/favorites/fcvt_fotw128.shtml
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    qutoe gagrice-"All three automakers came up with 70 mpg plus diesel hybrids on our nickel."-end quote

    That statement ALONE proves MY point - "they developed the cars and DO NOT HAVE THEM FOR SALE at a time when CONSUMERS want high mileage vehicles."

    So they missed "the boat" which in this case translates to "they made cars people want to and will buy NOW TODAY 2005 and they willingly abandoned the programs." :(

    That's missing the boat in ANY interpretation.
  • "Maybe for VW gas electric hybrids ARE too expensive to produce. Not all companies are as efficient as Toyota. "

    .

    Maybe, but the VW CEO has already denied that. He simply doesn't like hybrids. He thinks that diesel is the better solution, since a diesel engine is ~25% more energy efficient than a gasoline engine.

    troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Regardless of one man's opinion, there is no debating the fact that a "hybrid diesel" will be more efficient than EITHER a straight diesel or a gas hybrid....hence my quest for something that gets 70+ MPG in a 5 passenger car.....
  • supcrdssupcrds Posts: 11
    That statement ALONE proves MY point - "they developed the cars and DO NOT HAVE THEM FOR SALE at a time when CONSUMERS want high mileage vehicles."

    So they missed "the boat" which in this case translates to "they made cars people want to and will buy NOW TODAY 2005 and they willingly abandoned the programs."
    >>

    Having the Tech and having the car ready for the road are 2 very different things. If the General wanted to make the Cobalt Hybrid they know how but it would take 24 months on the fast track. Was there demand 2 years ago? Not really. Did Toyota and Honda look ahead and take a risk? Yes. Honda has stated it can add the IMA to every car in the lineup. That looks like an advantage to me over the more complicated system in the Prius. If Honda is adding IMA to the Civic and Accord for about $3000 (there are changes in packaging so hard for an exact amount on the IMA alone) I think Honda is not loosing at this price but not cleaning up either.

  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    quote supcrds-"Was there demand 2 years ago? Not really."-end quote

    That's about the time the new Prius started taking orders. The demand was there in the right package.....You can bet your patootie collection that if GM had offered a 5 dr 70 MPG "clean diesel" hybrid for under 30K they would have cleaned house.....
  • "Regardless of one man's opinion, there is no debating the fact that a hybrid diesel will be more efficient than EITHER a straight diesel or a gas hybrid....hence my quest for something that gets 70+ MPG in a 5 passenger car..... "

    .

    I thought you said diesel-electrics were too expensive?

    troy
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Yes, diesel elec hybrids appear to be too expensive....but that would not stop me from buying one if it was out there.

    5 passenger
    70+ MPG
    $30K range
    "clean diesel" readily available at every gas station

    That would sell me, no doubt.....
  • "Not all companies are as efficient as Toyota. "
    What a hoot! I wouldn't want my family to ride at highway speed in a vehicle that handles as badly as an RX300 or Avalon, and the best Camry has poorer brakes than the cheapest Chevy Cavalier!
    I don't think that "cheap" and "efficient" are always synonymous, as you imply that they are.
    Handling and the use of thicker guage metal in the doors are important safety features, which add cost and weight to European brands, but Toyota has optimized your safety out of your car in order to bank more of your purchase price.
    They are VERY smart, and very cheap, but that doesn't equate to efficient.
    (my 2 cents worth as an owner of a German diesel car ,German van, and German truck ... and my last Toyota was made of heavy guage steel and had a 3.5-L 4-cyl Diesel engine and weighed 4500 pounds. The Land-Cruiser was their best product, but you can't call it "efficient")
  • qbrozenqbrozen Posts: 22,307
    the best Camry has poorer brakes than the cheapest Chevy Cavalier!

    Geez... talk about an imbalanced comparison. If you wanna go that far, you know the Camry outbrakes alot of SUVs. But, seriously, comparing more similar vehicles like the Cobalt and Corolla, you'll find they are much more similar. I didn't spend too much time searching, but I found the Corolla XRS outbrakes the Cobalt LS by 12 feet from 70 mph, according to C&D.

    But this has nothing to do with this topic. I just felt I had to reply to that one statement. And I'm not even a Toyota fan.

    '17 F150 Crew 2.7; '67 Coronet R/T; '14 Town&Country Limited; '09 LR2 HSE. 44-car history and counting!

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