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Comments
Cruising in ??? MFD=52.7 (currently)
Happier than a pig in #$%^&
By the way. If a Prius battery sys should out last the car that's not a bad thing when you think about it. Remember when a few "naysayers" said they thought the batteries would fail and be the downfall of a hybrid car.....Much time has passed and the general concensis seems to be strongly acceptent of a near perfect battery sys.
Railroadjames(Friends Don't Let Friends Drive Dummers ...I Mean Hummers) :shades:
Railroadjames(Future is looking good for hybrids)
Yup, long term is not a concern if you are trading out at 3-4 years. However, for those of us who keep the vehicles for 10-15 years, it is a concern. Here in CA, the cars do not rust out like back east. So the basic reliability of the vehicle becomes the determining factor, or in the case of the hybrid, the question marks about long term maintenance of new technology.
"But Honda's Takemoto said no American consumer has yet to pay for a battery replacement on Honda's oldest hybrid, the Insight. Some Insights have traveled 200,000 miles now, he said, and all batteries that have been replaced have been covered by warranty."
See this story here:
http://www.decaturdaily.com/decaturdaily/news/050914/hybrid.shtml
More importantly, charging in 1 minute allows Electric Cars to have ***unlimited range***. You can drive ~250 miles, and then recharge your battery while drinking the 7-11 Coffee.
troy "
This sounds like you believe in perpetual energy? The enegry has to come from somewhere and in the case of a battery recharge it comes form the potentital energy of the car weight moving and being converted into kinetic energy and then into chemical energy as the regererative brakes are applied.
You either believe in perpeptual energy or the car must be several tons when stopping with hugh regernative brakes then when accelrating turn back into a one and ton car with small brakes. Is this a magic trick done with smoke and mirrors ?
Reality Check,
MidCow
I have one of the first new generation Prius cars off the assembly line with about 30K miles on it.
About 3 month ago my wife asked me if I had tracked some horse manure into the car at the stables. I had not been to the stables with the Prius or my shoes either.
The odor continued to get worse so I investigated. It is worst when the windows are up and it is hot outside. I then noticed that the odor was emanating from the traction battery vent intake next to the back seat. I took the car to the dealer and the regional tech rep had the dealer remove and open the battery case. They found no visible signs of leakage. They cleaned the battery and reinstalled in the car. They could not "verify" the odor. The odor has become worse. I will be returning to the dealer for further evaluation. My wife will not use the car for fear of being poisoned.
The car still operates fine and passed all tests.
Any comments, suggestions?
mmm, I wonder how that chicken got into the traction battery compartment?
Seriously, this is not something to ignore. Fumes coming from a battery are potentially deadly by themselves, not to mention the possibility of really nasty things happening to the battery pack on the freeway someday. Keep at the dealer to find out what is going on - and get back to us with the news...
Part 1:
09-24-2005
"Well I just received word yesterday from the dealer that my 2000 Insight hybrid battery is gone. I have 104K on the car so its way out of the warranty. My Insight has been a wonderful car. The service manager told me yesterday that I could expect to pay upwards of 5K to replace. This is not good news. The dealer is currently contacting Honda to get a firm price for the replacement and they will let me know on Monday. Does anyone know how much this might be exactly? I am really shocked I am at this point already. I was expecting this not to happen for at least a couple of more years or ever at all. Is this a common problem? I owe 5K on my Insight so if I am going to have to invest an additional 5K just to keep it going in normal operation they can forget it. At this point I would consider my car totaled. All of that gas money I have saved over the past couple of years just came due in one large payment. Hopefully HOnda will come through and offer me something a little more reasonable."
Part 2:
"10/4/2005
Honda insight battery update. Picked up my car from the local Honda dealership and Honda replaced my entire IMA system for $500.00. Thats the both controllers and the main battery pack. Car runs awesome and I have to hand it to Honda they really stand behind the product. My cars warranty was expired about 6 months ago on the 80K for the main battery and they replaced the entire system asking only for a $500.00 deductable which I felt was more than fair. I run the heck out of my little car as my job keeps me traveling around the state. Happy Insight owner."
Freak failure, $500 replacement cost, probably another 100K on that battery.
OK ??? Can we close the thread now?
That was a very smart move on Honda's part. The publicity could go against them and the whole hybrid genre. I wonder if Toyota will be so understanding on their hybrids after the warranty is gone.
There is another cost that I'm not sure is being considered.
With the VERY little research I have done, I have come to understand the following:
Batteries in the hybrids have a limited life.
Replacing these batteries will cost in the neighborhood of $5000.
Therefore...
Keeping the math easy let's say my 30+ mpg Mazda 3 costs me 1000 per year to drive.
NOW let's say I get a hybrid that cuts that annual cost in half. In my limited research I've heard that the hybrid battery will need to be replaced in about a five to seven year period at a cost of $5000.
So in this example, my annual fuel savings will not pay for a new battery.
As I have indicated my research (due mainly to time constraints) has been very limited, so the numbers could be completely wrong. I hope they are wrong. Anyone want to set me straight?
How often do hybrid batteries need replacing? Is replacement expensive and disposal an environmental problem?
The hybrid battery packs are designed to last for the lifetime of the vehicle, somewhere between 150,000 and 200,000 miles, probably a whole lot longer. The warranty covers the batteries for between eight and ten years, depending on the car maker.
Hybrids use NiMH batteries, not the environmentally problematic rechargeable nickel cadmium. "Nickel metal hydride batteries are benign. They can be fully recycled," says Ron Cogan, editor of the Green Car Journal. Toyota and Honda say that they will recycle dead batteries and that disposal will pose no toxic hazards. Toyota puts a phone number on each battery, and they pay a $200 "bounty" for each battery to help ensure that it will be properly recycled.
There's no definitive word on replacement costs because they are almost never replaced. According to Toyota, since the Prius first went on sale in 2000, they have not replaced a single battery for wear and tear.
One was replaced with new parts and was just over $2K.
The other was replaced with a good used one, put into an Insight the person purchased used. The replacement was for about half the cost.
I'm not sure of the mileage of either cars but how you drive also determines battery life.
I hope to drive my HCH for +300K miles over its 10 years and will likely retain its original battery. I say that because I use it very seldom with shallow cycles.
Even if it goes flat well before then I can still drive the car and get fantastic MPG.
Insight has suffered from a handful of failures due to that system relying on it much more heavily. The latest version of Honda's control-module along with the CVT do a far better job of preventing such heavy use of the battery-pack. But even so, it is still the ASSIST type so it should never be lumped together into a single category with the other type.
JOHN
Not Right.......A battery pack for a Prius is around $2000 NOT $5000
The battery is guaranteed for either 100,000 or 150,000 miles depending on what state you live in.
Your math doesn't work because your figures are Completely wrong...but even using your math...A car that is driven 15,000 miles per yr. would still over 3 years of guaranteed life left on the battery pack if the warrenty was 150,000 miles...and you had driven for the 7 yrs used in your example.
That same Prius or Honda getting an avg of 50 mpg would burn 300 gallons a yr....the 30 mpg car would burn...500 gallons per yr...at an avg price of $3.00 per gallon the price difference is $600 per yr....Times the 7 years you used in your example that would be $4200 in savings over 7 years...So extend the savings to the full 10 years of battery warrenty and the savings is $6,000. Three times the battery cost and that is assuming the cost of the batteries don't go down over then next 10 years.
NOTE: Diesel is not nearly as Clean as electric...with gas and Diesel fuel costs more..
Not everyone believes the battery is a non-issue. I for one keep my cars for longer than 10 years. I have two 1990 models with less than 90k miles each. Many believe that age will be more of a deteriorating factor than mileage on the battery.
Owners of 'environmentally friendly' hybrid cars like the Toyota Prius and Honda Insight may be hit with a bill for up to $7000 when their car's battery dies less than eight years after purchase. The battery unit, which has a lifespan of 8-10 years -- shorter in hotter climates like Australia -- cannot be reconditioned. It must be thrown out and replaced with a new one, at considerable cost to the owner.
"A replacement battery on the Insight retails for $6840," said Honda spokesman Mark Higgins. Honda began selling the Insight hybrid in Japan car in 1997
Add battery replacement every eight years to this equation, and replacement parts costs as the vehicle exceeds its planned life of ten years and components wear out, and owners have no chance of ever seeing a dollar back.
To further add environmental insult to injury, a considerable cloud exists over just how recyclable NickelMetal Hydride batteries really are - some reports even suggest that those who buy green may be doing more environmental harm than good. Both Toyota and Honda were unable to tell CarPoint exactly how much of the battery could be recycled. Both have left the task of recycling in the hands of a third party recycler.
Internet site www.BatteryUniversity.com warns against the careless disposable of Ni-MH batteries, due to the toxicity of it main derivative, Nickel.
http://carpoint.ninemsn.com.au/portal/alias__carpointau/tabID__6491/ArticleID__5487/Deskto- pDefault.aspx
(Battery usage)"that system relying on it much more heavily."
and
"The latest version of Honda's control-module along with the CVT do a far better job of preventing such heavy use of the battery-pack"
Which latest version are you referring to?
I'm not sure about the '03 model but the pack in my '04 is used very sparingly. Personally I'd guess my use of any Assist/Recharge is 3-5% of the total trip.
One of the factors influencing battery life is the number of use/charge cycles.
From what I understand Prius is feeding or returning charge almost constantly?
If a Prius can't move with a dead hybrid battery-
Then whch system relies on it more:
One that can start & run normally or one that is stranded?
Since I hope/plan to drive it 10yrs/300K miles that was a major factor in my new car choice.
I'm not sure if you know this, but the IMA isn't used as a primary motive force- all comes from the ICE. The motor/battery only comes into play briefly on acceleration and other times of high demand, thus its light use.
Where's your data that IMA packs fail more than HSD?
Why make things up to defend your already great car?
I'm surprised in your post, as you don't usually make things up.
Are you saying that Prius packs haven't had failures?
How about the recent strings of other failures?
I could provide some links if you like.
Don't you get the 10 year 150k mile hybrid warranty in NY, same as CA? I agree for someone that puts the average 15k miles for 10 years the battery is a non-issue.
Prius is maintaining a near constant SOC (state-of-charge) for the battery-pack. By preventing a charging cycle from happening in the first place, it is ensuring a much much much longer battery life than an assist hybrid which allows greater discharges because it lacks the ability to replenish like that.
And of course, the fact that Prius generates electricty and immediately consumes it has been totally ignored here. Not using the battery-pack at all for many of its electrical tasks is a clear advantage for Prius, one that the assist hybrids can only dream about.
JOHN
Since I never said it does, why are you asking me this?
All I've done was point out differences in designs and years.
JOHN
I guess you haven't been behind the wheel of an HCH, or you'd find that just like HSD, you don't see the discharges you described.
You also mentioned:
"Not using the battery-pack at all for many of its electrical tasks is a clear advantage for Prius."
Funny, I thought I just mentioned that about the IMA back in post #551?
Anyway I also wanted to thank and compliment you for the nice personal website you have about the Prius, although I haven't visited for a while.
I don't understand why you would pull this kind of stunt, your comments are deceptive and meant to mislead...IN RESPONSE>
1) The article was published in Australia Where their dollar is valued at about 50% of ours....So when they talk $5000 dollar batteries that would actually be a battery costing $2500 or even less since the article was written in 03
2) The article talks about 01-03 Prius...It states the 04s would not be out until Sept...
Shame on you....I don't Want to waste any more time on your comments.
Anywho, #551 mentions "One that can start & run normally". That is misleading. Honda owners have pointed out that when the IMA fails (or they've disabled it for research) the DC/DC converter is inoperative. That means the 12-volt battery is not recharged and the system is slowly drained to the point where if you shut it off, it won't be able to restart with the traditional starter.
JOHN
$5000 AUD is equal to $3767 USD. Just to keep the record straight. Please provide the evidence on the cost of a Prius battery when you reach 101k miles and it dies. I did not write the article. The article also points out the fact that Toyota would not be so generous with the warranty if not for the EPA & CARB forcing the issue.
Just one of many examples...2nd Gen Prius Main Battery.... can be had retail for around $ 2,600.00 - $ 2,900.00 thru local Toyota dealers. This info made available today per phone calls to 4 dealers in my area. NOT $ 6,000.00- $ 7,000.00.
The prices were quoted with the added info that prices were expected to come down in the future. This was an opinion of a Parts Mgr. but worth mentioning.
This Hybrid site definitly has a great deal of friction & polarity unfortunitly and that seems to be getting in the way of responsible sharing of ideas and opinions. I hope that you'll appreciate those of us that try to give ownership experiences of our cars their just due. Since we offer a hands on, though marginally predjudist, opinion of these unique cars. I have come to realize that cars are alot movies...Few people can agree on the same one.
Railroadjames(just the facts mame)
Did you happen to get an "installed price" on this item? I'm curious about the total costs... or maybe that was the cost including labor at the Toyota dealer?
A word of advice. The positions seem pretty entrenched here. And everyone pretty much knows where everyone else stands on things. Next time anyone feels like they need to "counter' something that someone else has posted to "prove" a point, remember that the other guy is going to come around to your way of thinking just about the same time that you're going to switch over to their view.
There ARE times when you're going to have to agree to disagree.
Railroadjames(I like Toyota Quality)