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Legacy GT Limited vs. Acura TSX and TL
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Comments
I wonder what the insurance rates are for STis? The performance and stolen-factor certainly don't help.
Bob
It would be wise to get insurance quotes for all these cars before buying.
-juice
Not every car with HIDs is a target for thieves.
Craig
-juice
Have you looked at the 325 or the new RL?
nschulman3, I'm very sorry to hear about your vehicle being stolen and hope your insurance agency makes good on the situation.
-juice
I would think the TL is probably the least similar option out of the three vehicles. It's got power, but the vehicle is geared more towards luxury rather than a tossable ride.
Both the GT and TSX handle very well so they'll probably be more in-line to your needs. The GT does have a power advantage given that it shares the same longblock as the STi. There's lots of low-end grunt with very little turbo lag. The TSX will require a much more rev-happy driving style to tap into it's power, but it does come with a slick 6-speed manual.
I'd say the GT has the edge in performance while the TSX in creature comforts.
As for HIDs, interestingly, Consumer Reports also felt that the halogen headlights on the Legacy performed better than the HIDs on the TSX. It's not just how much brighter but how efficiently the lenses use the light.
Ken
-juice
As far as power is concerned, the TSX has more low end grunt then it would appear. I find it to be quite lively around town. It is pretty rare that I feel a need for more power.
Every once in a while, I'll get stuck behind some car going 30 MPH on the freeway. I'll need to move around that car really quickly, and get up to 60 MPH. In those situations, the low torque of the TSX is annoying. Otherwise, it almost always has more than enough pull for me.
Anyway,its a great time to shop for cars because the Legacy GT, TL, and TSX are all great options.
Craig
The new Golfs are out and I'd like to see the R32 treatment on that.
-juice
Krzys
Cars come with oil in them from the factory, the dealership doesn't need to fill it up with oil. And a disgruntled employee draining the oil out of a new car? Yeah, sure.
"Never heard of that,sorry dont believe it's true by the quick story you gave us."
So what is it? Dealership forgot to add oil, disgruntled employee, or are you calling him a liar? Or do you not want to believe that there may have been a Legacy with a problem because you just bought one?
"I did have a similar problem with rusty door seams on a 2003 mazda 6 that thank god I got out of and got the legacy."
Sorry about your 6, I had the same problem. I remember you from the 6 thread, I thought you got an Accord to replace your 6?
"Well I got 19k on a trade for a 03 EXV6 accord that was the general managers car for 6k miles."
And now you say:
"I did have a similar problem with rusty door seams on a 2003 mazda 6 that thank god I got out of and got the legacy."
So which is it? Did you replace the 6 with a Legacy or an Accord? That makes me wonder if you really did have a Mazda6 to begin with and that maybe you're the one who's making things up.
-juice
Signs of a troll:
* extremely negative, flaming post
* post only once, then disappear so as not to have to defend their illogical position
* anonymity - no name and private e-mail
rx9new: if I'm wrong, please share the last 4 digits of your VIN, I'll have an SoA rep look up your case (if it's even true). I doubt you'll stick around long enough to respond, though.
At least tell me the dealer, again I'll have an SoA rep look up 3 catastrophic engine failures all from a single dealer within a certain time frame.
Trolls won't answer so I don't expect a reply.
-juice
And a related question: how many people would, after having their car serviced, immediately pop the hood and check oil and fluid levels, new filter, etc?
(A lot of people pop the hood after a service for just that reason - to make sure everything was done properly, BTW.)
Keep in mind it's Honda dealers that are struggling with oil changes on CR-Vs, resulting in 60+ engine fires and counting.
-juice
If you read his post, he said his engine gave out with 152 miles on it, so why would there have been an oil change? Whether the story is true or not, forgetting to add oil would not be the cause of a failed engine with only 152 miles because a dealer would not change the oil on a brand new car. If the car didn't have oil in it from the factory, the engine wouldn't have lasted 152 miles. I didn't catch the part about him being the third with the problem though, which makes the story less believeable.
I'm a little confused about some of the cars being compared to the TSX, they either cost $10K more equally equiped, or don't have anywhere near the equipment for the same price. The TSX has to be the best value out there today.
With my 01 Outback, I had a bad clutch replaced at no charge at 40,000 even though the car was out of warranty (the orig clutch wasn't designed right) and shortly thereafter, Subaru repainted the entire car due to a manufacturing defect that was causing cracks in the paint. The repaint cost Subaru thousands of dollars, and it took 5 weeks to complete. It was a pain, sure, but it got fixed...I'm not sure many other manufacturers would do the same.
When I traded the Outback in last year for a new WRX, Subaru covered the new car with a 100k warranty as a testament to their faith in their products. None of the manufacturers I have dealt with in the past were even remotely as interested in customer satisfaction.
Brian
ith American Honda either.Just read the posts.
Dont be confused about the TSX comparison,alot of the magazines have already done it themselves.The TL may cost more but you get a bigger car and 70 more hp.The legacy gives you alot more power than the TSX also and awd.The TSX gives you fwd n/a 4cyl with 200hp and a low torque figure.The TSX does give you the nav if you want it.I think the Legacy is the best bang for the buck but if I had your problem I probably would not buy subaru again either.I wont buy Mazda,at least for a while I'm still upset about it.
Frankly, the only thing I think the Subaru has really going for it is the all wheel drive but I think I'd rather have Traction Control and Stability control. I've driven in lots of snow and never really had trouble with front wheel drive and traction control. Plus the NHTSA report on stability control really shows how much that helps. If an all wheel drive starts sideways, the all wheel drive doesn't help.
Nav was a big deal for me. Maps are OK but don't help if you are on a road in the country and don't have a detailed local map or in DC where roads seem to end with other unmarked ones appearing at odd angles.
5 weeks?! What, they did it by hand? With a toothbrush?
Going to Cherry Hill seems a little aggressive, don't you think? Did you call 800-SUBARU3? Did you get a case number, even?
I ask because the more common experience is the exact opposite of what you are reporting - it's the dealers that usually resist, SoA puts the pressure on to provide good service.
That may be because a dealer can charge full retail service prices to a customer, but if they're being reimbursed by Subaru the rate is much lower.
I dunno, this whole thing still smells fishy to me.
-juice
We have an SoA rep roaming these very boards, she respects privacy and cannot get involved in a case directly, but she does oversee the dealers and can get things done when needed.
I'd urge any Subie owners to join the Subaru Crew here on Edmunds, Patti really takes care of Edmunds members.
-juice
Ken
I ask because the 2005 GT has a totally different engine block.
I bet you had a leaky head gasket on an earlier model year Legacy. Subaru covers those for 8/100, sort of like Acura covers TL transmissions for 7/100. Both have shown patterns of failures but the manufacturers have stepped up.
However, the new GT uses a skirted block, semi-closed desk design. The gaskets are entirely different, shape and part numbers. It actually shares the block of the WRX STi, not the same block as the normally aspirated cars.
Ward's actually named that engine to its 10 Best list this year, FWIW.
Pistons are forged, valves are sodium filled. Intake and exhaust are completely different. So about all the new GT has in common with the older 2.5l engine is the bore center and the 180 degree opposed position of the pistons.
Internally, no parts are interchangeable at all.
Reason I say that is because your issue was not with the new GT's engine. It would be like telling someone not to buy a TSX because a similar (but not the same) 2.4l Honda engine has had issues engine fires in a CR-V.
To me it doesn't seem relevant to this topic.
-juice
His experience is relevent because he was disapointed with how Subaru handled his situation. IMO, Subaru should've just given him a new car being that the engine failed at 152 miles.
Just like the other guy who won't buy a Mazda again because of his rust issue, even though that has been corrected.
With that being said, stonewalling a customer isn't unique to any manufacturer. They have ALL done it and will continue to do it.
Head gasket failure doesn't require a full engine replacement, so I think this sounds a bit misleading, at least.
I'm trying to find out if that's indeed what it was. If one dealer saw 3 of the same issue, it had to have been head gaskets.
The dealer would replace the gasket, not the whole engine.
More importantly, the problem doesn't apply to the 2005 Legacy GT, the car being discussed in this thread.
-juice
Having followed the Mazda6 rust issue a little, I know what your situation was like.
In this case, I think it's a little fishy that the dealership claimed three such engine failures. I do not put a lot of credibility in things dealers tell to customers, and I think most of us will agree that they tell you what they want you to hear/think. But it's rarely accurate. If there were such a high failure rate, then we would know about it (we know about far more arcane things than that). So it just sounds fishy, and is lacking details. Why did the engine fail??
Having watched Patti in action over the years, and having been the beneficiary of goodwill from Subaru of America, I know that they care about their products and they do whatever they can to keep customers happy. Many of us can speak to that. So it just all seems out of character with what we know here.
Craig
I'm not talking about spraying some undercoating on there or repainting the door, I mean full replacement of the failed part (door sheetmetal).
You might have kept your Mazda if they had stepped up like that. But they didn't.
Subaru did. Gaskets are replaced (not engines BTW) on 99-01 Legacys with the 2.5l engine and then they treat the coolant with an additive and extend the warranty on affected parts to 8 years or 100k miles.
Acura did, too. Trannies are repaired or replaced and the warranty covers you for 7/100, IIRC.
So it's different than Mazda's "solution", in my opinion.
But we are off topic anyway, the 2005 Legacy GT does not even have any gasket issues, it's not even the same engine!
-juice
It might or it might not. If enough water gets into the oil, it can wreck every single surface of the engine that encounters friction. Crankshaft, pistons, valves, cams, block, etc. IMO, that means new engine.
"You might have kept your Mazda if they had stepped up like that."
I did keep my Mazda and after one Minnesota winter, there isn't any new issues with the doors. That doesn't mean that I'm not angry about what happened though.
"So it's different than Mazda's "solution", in my opinion."
Not to me it isn't. Maybe if his car had more miles on it, Subaru's solution would've been acceptable, but with 152 miles, he deserved a new car IMO. Engine replacement is MAJOR surgery for a car and I'm one of the people that believes that once you do something that major to a car, it's never the same. 152 miles? I'd be pissed.
The cases we've seen have needed just gasket replacements.
We have 5 Subies in our family, my 98 Forester, my wife's 02 Legacy, my dads 01 Outback, my sisters 03 Forester, and my brother's 04 Legacy. All of them have the 2.5l EJ255 engine, and not one of the 10 head gaskets (remember it's an H4) has had any issues.
Again, though, we have not seen one single gasket issue with the turbo block.
Let me ask the Acura folks this, if a TL's transmission failed at 152 miles, would Acura replace the car or the tranny? I have no idea so I'm asking.
-juice
What I meant by that was that the 2004s and 2005s didn't have the issue, and to be fair, although I was extremely pissed about the rust issue with my car, it hasn't gotten worse in a year and I haven't had any other issues. There were two recalls on my car that were done at the dealer and I was given a rental car. Two recalls isn't that big of a deal for a first year car IMO.
With the exception of the luxury makes, dealership experience varies by dealer, and even by service writer and mechanics, not by manufacturer in my experience. I've had 2 Hondas, a Subaru, 3 Mazdas, and a Ford.
"The coolant leaks are usually external, it doesn't mix with the oil."
I'm not familiar with the Subaru issue. I was just saying that a failed head gasket can ruin an entire engine, whether it's from overheating, or lack of lubrication, or both.
"Let me ask the Acura folks this, if a TL's transmission failed at 152 miles, would Acura replace the car or the tranny?"
Who knows? I'd be just as mad about a tranny replacement at 152 miles as I would about an engine replacement.
As an example, people have gotten new white Legacy GTs with stains on the paint (turns out to be dealer-applied tire dressing that permanently stains the clearcoat). The dealer solution is to have the offending part repainted. It is possible to match the color, and most people find this a reasonable repair. But eventually, there will come a time when the repainted part of the car starts to differ in appearance from the factory paint, and all of a sudden it detracts from the value of the car. So that's an example where I would not be willing to settle for a repaint and lose the uniformity of a factory paint job. But I doubt any dealer or manufacturer is going to give you a new car -- their strategy is going to be a repaint which will keep them covered through the car's warranty. Whenit looks bad in 7-10 years, it won't be their problem anymore.
I am lucky that I have not had any major defects in my vehicles that compromise their long-term value. I know it would probably stink to have a new car and then be looking at major repairs or replacements. Would not sit well with me at all.
Craig