VW's 1.8T never had two turbos. In the TT it had 2 intercoolers to help squeeze 225hp out of 1.8L.
Saab has a tough time, IMO, because it doesn't fit in a convinent slot. The cars are not exactly competitive with audi/bmw/merc/acura/lexus which is who they position themselves against. If you drive a 9-3 and a 325i back to back the 325 handles better AND is smoother on bad surfaces AND is quieter AND has a higher quality interior. Saab does generally give you more per dollar in the way of features but that's not exactly the point of upscale cars, that's the point of commodity cars. But from a commodity perspective is a 9-3 better than an accord/camry v6, for example?
Actually Saab is scheduled for new cars over the next 3 years. The new 9-5 is due in 2008, The new 9-3 is due in 2009. Your gonna go wow, that Rocky ws right after all. :P
If Saab could nail a revived Bonnett - a fun to drive ultra-compact a-la the Mini - it may just have something.
Opel and Saturn may get subcompacts as well. But these tend to be family or practical brands.
But a Saab lineup with a sub-compact, combi, and small ute may still not be enough to make a profit. If Saturn's return works, it will further hurt the market for Saab in North America.
Take a Saab Twin Turbo engine and add SH-AWD or 4-Wheel Steering w/ a touch of AWD, and that 3 series doesn't handle so well. It's funny seeing a Infiniti M45 or G35 which is the only things Nissan makes that I would want to own smoke a 3 Series around the skidpad. How ? It's a little forgotten Gadget called Rear Active Steer that was found on the Dodge Stealth/Mitsu 3000 VR-4
If Saturn's return works, it will further hurt the market for Saab in North America.
We strongly disagree pal. I believe Saab will be very profitable in a few years and be a desired upscale premium brand like Volvo or Audi because of the sophisticated multi-cumbustion engines they've been developing for the future. Saab will be a cross between Audi/ BMW/ Volvo, and in 3 or 4 years I'm wrong I'll let ya throw a water ballon at me.
I believe Saab will be very profitable in a few years and be a desired upscale premium brand like Volvo or Audi because of the sophisticated multi-cumbustion engines they've been developing for the future.
But won't Saturn be getting some of those engines?
Saturn already has the 2.0 ecotec. I think it is only a matter of time before Saab's, admittedly wonderful, 2.8 finds it way into a Saturn. At the very least, it has to be the base in the next generation, and wonderful RWD CTS.
I really like the 9-3 SportCombi's styling, in and out. But at the price, I am having trouble getting over my preference for RWD. I fear a lot of others see it the same.
Those saturn won't be getting turbocharged engines though, thus a lower performance figure, not as much gadgets, no AWD, also at first Saab probably will take the lead on bio-fuel engines.
"Take a Saab Twin Turbo engine and add SH-AWD or 4-Wheel Steering w/ a touch of AWD, and that 3 series doesn't handle so well."
Ok, so are you advising people to not buy a saab until they add an acura RL suspension to it? That's not a very good way to sell cars.
I have driven a g35 and 330 on a track back to back and our opinions of the relative handling is different.
High end cars aren't about "numbers". It's like food. You don't eat a filet mingon because it gives you a lot of protein per dollar.
Based off of saab's comparison site, a 9-5 blows away a 530 or e350 based off of features/$. But if you actually drive the cars, most people in the category seem to see the value. I HAVE driven these cars back to back and you are getting something for the price difference.
However, if you are shopping features/$ then there's lexus and acura. The TL has more standard features and is cheaper than the 9-5. So saab is wedged in an awkward place, they have to use the value argument against bmw/merc and the "presige" ( for lack of a better term ) argument against lexus/acura or even honda for that matter.
I'm still hopeful, i want to get a little roadster soon ( while i'm still young and single. ) and the X concept looks cool, but what is it going to be? A breathed upon solstice designed to a price? Or something to compete with what i really want( a boxster ).
"I agree. Before traction control and less truck like AWD, a sporty fwd car had a niche with foul weather denziens. Now it is much less relevant. "
Further agree. Also, horsepower keeps going up and up, and FWD simply can't cope with it. That is the reason the 2.8T "only" puts out 258 hp. Too much more simply wouldn't go through the fronts.
From what I understand from various car magazines / web sites, most SAAB engineers have been fired. Development of all future vehicles has been consolidated at Opel, with a few SAAB engineers left in Sweden to design grilles and badges to apply a "SAAB look" to Opels.
In other words, all future SAAB's are merely going to be badge-engineered Opels, i.e., mediocre GM engineering and quality with a SAAB grille bolted on, peddled to the public as an upscale European car.
SAAB has ceased being a designer / manufacturer of automobiles - it is now just another GM "brand" - no different than Pontiac or GMC.
I looked at the post I wrote more than a month and a half ago you are responding to today.
I do not see where I said that Saab is not consolidated with Opel. Indeed, if you go back futher than a month and a half ago, you will see where I said just that.
As for Opel being mediocre - I do disagree. In fact, in many ways, Opel product has been better than Saab for many a year.
Agree with you. I however don't want to see opels rebadge both a premium brand like Saab and entry brand like Saturn. I'd rather see Holdens become Saabs then Opels.
after owning 5 SAABS 86 900, 89 900T, and well the last one was a 2003 9-3 ARC..
anyway - I actually miss the pre GM saabs. They felt so heavy but strong and powerful - basically now they are just pimp my ride Chevy malibus.
I now own an A3 2.0T which reminds me more of my 89 SAAB 900TURBO in the sense of fun 2L turbo power and heavy feeling but agile car.
I think you are better off to buy a loaded Accord today or better get get a loaded passat or a GTI - it's way better than a 9-5 or a 9-3 I am so sorry to say
Best thing that could happen to SAAB today is for VW/AUDI group to buy it and infuse so EURO style and feel to it.
Yeah. my old 900T was a great car aside from it's terrible unreliability.
The new 9-3 is better in some ways, but the interior is a BIG step down. In general, the car has lost a lot of distinctiveness. The vestigal seat-front-pockets are symbolic of saabs transformation.
have ya been in an Opel lately? They look great but drive an Audi A4 or an A3 2 liter turbo
Drive a SEAT or a SKODA and I'm sorry SAAB or OPEL don't compare and my german friends do not consider Opel to be a real German car.
People in Europe buy Opels because they are nice looking and CHEAP - VW/AUDI good looks at KIA prices. If I wanted a KIA then a step up to an Opel would be a good idea. If I wanted a SAAB I'd be better off buying an AUDI or a VW.
Unlike Ford which took all the good things of Volvo and made them better GM has taken SAAB and turned it into a EURO KIA
I would think a new 9-5 would be more important than a new 9-3 for the sake of a seven year old design that just got a refresh consisting of a new tail and "Sunglasses" for the headlights. This is supposed to carry them on till 09'? I don't know, but IMO a TB copy and a Subaru didn't seem to be wise investments when the 9-5 was in it's 6th model year let alone its 8th or 9th...
I cannot believe what I am reading here. Would any of you compare Pontiac, GMC, or Chevrolet to Cadillac? Many of you act as though SAAB was some how cheapened through ownership by General Motors. I cannot say that I care for the 9-7 or the 9-2; however, neither the SAAB 9-3 nor 9-5 can in any form or fashion be compared to anything like a Chevy Malibu.
The one thing that is not SAAB on these cars is the Air Conditioning system, which is GM and a huge improvement. Anyone who knows automobile history knows that GM use to own Frigidaire; GM has superior Air Conditioning technology.
If you plan on purchasing a SAAB, then you should get the Sports Package, which is the AERO. You also should get the vented leather seats, which comes with seat heaters and fans. You will not find vented leather seats or seat fans on Pontiac, Buick, or even Cadillac sedans.
You should also purchase the extended warranty. Turbo can lead to much excitement and many problems. You should also realize that you cannot simply turn-off the engine when you get to your destination. Turbo gets very hot, and one needs to let the engine run for a couple of minutes while the car is parked to cool the turbo so that oil will not bake in it. Drive the other cars, and then drive a SAAB 9-3 or 9-5; you will feel the difference.
You should also realize that you cannot simply turn-off the engine when you get to your destination. Turbo gets very hot, and one needs to let the engine run for a couple of minutes while the car is parked to cool the turbo so that oil will not bake in it.
Yet I have never seen anyone ever do this, and I've never done it in over 150K miles driving a turbocharged car. Never had a problem with the turbocharger either. Cars have to be designed in order to function for the generally clueless. People wouldn't go near turbocharged cars if this were a must. Its like those who say you'll ruin your transmission by taking too swiftly from stoplights. A modern car has to be able to withstand this, not racing mind you, but you get my point.
you can't believe SAAB is being compared to a Malibu? The 9-3 is on the SAME platform at the Chevy Malibu and the Pontiac G6.
put a new SAAB next to an AUDI, a BMW, a loaded VW passat or even a JETTA. compare the ride and quality and use of materials. Look at the resale value. There is no reason to waste your money on a SAAB and it's GM's fault. I owned 5 SAABS and GM ruined them and I am not happy about it.
Cadillac - for that Money why not buy a lexus ? much nicer ride and quality and resale is at the top. The Chryslers are nicer than the Caddys now in my opinion.
Anyway I can see you still like SAAB I just don't really understand why since the company no longer exists. It's just simply a badge meant to lure naive buyers. It's not a good car and it's not a good investment. Believe me I learned the hard way with my 2003 9-3 ARC.
Saab design will be completely absorbed by the Opel division in Europe, then GM, Nissan, and Renault will "merge" and before you know it, Saabs will be getting designed by French people! Can you imagine what the 2009 Saabault Megane will look like? Bet that will boost sales for the brand! :-P
The GM behemoth brings down another unique car company to the lowest common denominator.
No, the slightly unique 9-3 Combi does not a car company make. I wonder what sales of that model will look like in the first year. I think most people have forgotten there is such a thing as the Saab brand, so very few will even bother to check it out. It may be a "great car" - I have not driven it - but around $30K there are a heck of a lot of great cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
have ya been in an Opel lately? They look great but drive an Audi A4 or an A3 2 liter turbo
Yes. As a matter of fact.
Opels do not compete with Audis, they compete with VWs, Renaults and Fords. Regardless of what your German friends may have said (do your friends know you don't capitalize their nation when you refer to them?) they compete well, with market share increasing in Germany at the expense of VW.
Saabs use more expensive suspension and engine components than their Opel counterparts. Pretty much what Saab has been doing for years, well before the GM acquisition.
The difference between Saab and Volvo is that Volvo has always had a full line of cars. Saab was never more than one or two models. It did not make money for years before the acquisition, assuming it ever did. Arguably, GM should not have wasted its time and money buying the brand. If it had not, unless Renault bought it, Saab would be dead.
well I guess that's it- I had hoped GM would have been able to keep the coolness in Saab and improve quality like Ford did with Jaguar and Volvo and like Mercedes has done with Chrysler 300 and Crossfire.
Instead GM just took the easiest way out and took Opel cars(Subarus and GMC Envoys now too) and rebadged them.
After seeing this failure I would have been happier to see SAAB die off a broken company who built really cool cars.
I'm just bummed that GM had an opportunity here to revive and strenthen a great brand but it just seems all too watered down with ultra cheap fixes and careless and obvious rebadging. Well it's just the Cadillac Cimmaron all over again. It's insulting for GM to think consumers can't see that the car is really a Chevy Cavalier or that the SAABs now are just Malibus and Subarus.
I'm just not fooled by GM and I find their lame attempt to sell me a Faux European car is insulting.
I am thrilled with my Audi A3 it's much nicer than my 2003 Saab 9-3 was and much more fun to drive and Audi is way more respectable now than SAAB for not a lot more money.
anyway GM hasn't fooled me anymore and I have completely lost faith in their ability to build a car people really want
There is a reason GM is having problems now and it's entirely their fault for being cheap and trying to slip us these crappy cars which look great but are just pimped out Opels. They were short sighted in this and are paying for it now- I have no sympathy for them b/c they don't listen to the consumers.
I'm here to dissuade people from buying from a company that doens't deserve your money and to stop people from buying a car that may look great but with depreciation and long term satisfaction not being there-- you will be disappointed.
Claiming a Saab is a faux European car because it is based on Opels flies in the face of all rational thought.
Saabs are based on Opels. Opel has been a German based company since the mid-19th Century. It is older than either VW or Audi. It has and continues to be a very European car. The 9/7 and the 9/3 are sold only in the US. They are stop gap, meant to shore up a lineup of vehicles that simply do not appeal to enough US buyers to keep the Saab dealerships open.
Complaining about the Saab/Opel connection is a complete non-sequitor. Saab had been buying Opel platforms and engines for years before the acquisition.
Your German friends would also appear to be in the minority. Your complaints notwithstanding, both Opel and Saab have seen significant increase in market share in Europe this year, again, largely at the expense of VW and Audi respectively. VW and Audi are getting hit mostly for significant and pernicious quality problems, certainly not a German tradition.
I really did like my last SAAB, my '97 900 SET. However, it did have a serious malfunction every 2-3 months. And i am not exaggerating.
ASIDE form that it was a nice car, though. It's interior was very high quality, it was very comfortable, was VERY functional, etc.
The new ones, well, the most obvious difference is the quality of the interior. The new 9-3 interior looks VERY cheap to me. That's the big problem to me, there seem to have been several steps down in the car ( engine note, utility, quality ) but the most obvious flaw with the old car ( quality ) has not been shown to be rectified.
It seems that instead of building a saab, GM tried to build a lower-cost audi
The new 9-3 interior looks VERY cheap to me. That's the big problem to me, there seem to have been several steps down in the car ( engine note, utility, quality ) but the most obvious flaw with the old car ( quality ) has not been shown to be rectified.
The 07 9-3 interior is significantly different from what is in the current model. The 2.0 litre turbo I4 as well as the 2.8 turbor V6 are pretty highly regarded.
Saab reliability is not as high as other US GM makes. Curiously, Opels are rated quite well in Europe. I do not know how Saab does in Europe.
I know you think I am irrational but the facts are: Opels are often made in Korea by the former Daewoo and that is why they are gaining market share b/c they are tiny and cheap in Countries where that is very important b/c cars cost much more there than they do here and gas is much more expensive than the US.
I don't see Opel as being German b/c it's owned by GM and the cheaper cars are made in Asia. It's simply used as an entry way into a brand name that people see as German.
You can't say that about VW/AUDI- (TOTALLY GERMAN with all GERMAN engineering)
anyway like I have said I owned 5 SAABS and I have had it with GM (a failing company) and I think the crap they put out is an insult to my intelligence.
Now please explain why you like SAAB so much ? Do you own one now - have you owned pre-GM models?
I never heard of SAAB using OPEL before 1993 when GM bought 50% (then later 100%) of SAAB but if you think that means something - fine I can't argue b/c I don't know if that is true buuut all I can say is after 1993 when GM had part of SAAB they just ruined it vs improving it.
That's my opinion and I feel I have reason to say it since I WAS an avid SAAB fan. I don't want to argue anymore about OPEL - it really doesn't matter - the end product of GM is junk
so again WHY do you like SAAB? which models have you owned and what do you drive now?
Hm. Well, i was speaking specifically of 9-3 quality, which is regarded as pretty poor in sources i've seen.
Saab's 2.8T is a ward's 10-best engine. I haven't driven it yet, so it's hard to comment, but bmw's 3.0L has the same power, without the turbos. I doubt the 2.8T will stay on the list, i think it's more of a "look, saab is still making turbo engines" moment.
The problem is, saab is in the lux category. There are some awesome engines in the group. Audi's 2.0T makes a few fewer HP but it is essentially lag-free.
Saab is behind--they need to be better than some of the other badges to gain ground. I still have affection for quirky saab, but i can't genuinely say who they're "better" than at this point. Now, the points they gain are from being cheaper, then they are in danger of competing with subaru, honda, who are cheaper yet.
Opels are good cars. If there is a way out for saab, i suppose it must be being the "high-end" opels, the way lexus/acura work for their respective brands.
Opels are often made in Korea by the former Daewoo and that is why they are gaining market share b/c they are tiny and cheap in Countries where that is very important b/c cars cost much more there than they do here and gas is much more expensive than the US.
Nonsense. Most all Opels are made in Germany, Belgium, Poland and the UK. While GM does bring some GM DAT product to Europe, most are sold as either Daewoos, or increasingly, Chevrolets.
Opels main sellers are the very European built Astra, Zafria, Vectra and Corsa.
I don't see Opel as being German b/c it's owned by GM and the cheaper cars are made in Asia. It's simply used as an entry way into a brand name that people see as German.
It is an opinion, not based on fact. GM has owned Opel since before WWII. As I said above, GM sold only one or two Daewoo models as Opels. And that for only a few years. And GM is well in the process of moving all those products to the Chevrolet brand in Europe.
You can't say that about VW/AUDI- (TOTALLY GERMAN with all GERMAN engineering)
Also not true. VW/Audi makes vehicles in Mexico, Brasil and Argentina. VW/Audi have significant engineering and design facilities in Brasil. Opel, on the other hand, is consolidating its design and engineering in Russelheim, Germany. Indeed, GM's current plan is to begin designing all of its compact and many of its mid-sized vehicles in Russleheim, including those sold under US name plates.
I never heard of SAAB using OPEL before 1993 when GM bought 50% (then later 100%) of SAAB but if you think that means something - fine I can't argue b/c I don't know if that is true buuut all I can say is after 1993 when GM had part of SAAB they just ruined it vs improving it.
Not sure when Saab started buying Opel platforms, but it was well before 1993.
That's my opinion and I feel I have reason to say it since I WAS an avid SAAB fan. I don't want to argue anymore about OPEL - it really doesn't matter - the end product of GM is junk
As long as you admit your comments are opinion, I don't care what you say. But saying that its a fact Opel is not European is just plain wrong.
Opels are good cars. If there is a way out for saab, i suppose it must be being the "high-end" opels, the way lexus/acura work for their respective brands.
My understanding that this is always what GM had hoped for when it bought the brand. Opel is somewhere between a Saturn or Buick level market following in Europe, whereas Saab was closer to entry level Cadillac.
GM seemed to think buying Saab would be a quick way to fix this. Saab's facilities were lacking. And obviously Opel has been reluctant to fully integrate Saab. Whether it works or not I think is still an open question.
Frankly, I feel the Saab expenses have not been worth it for GM. But it not because Saab are less European now than they were before.
I thought ( but i am likely wrong ) that GM bought saab largely for its US demographics, on the assumption that brand loyalty would keep them buying saabs.
While i do not think saabs are bad, i can't see buying one over an audi/bmw/merc if the 3 or 4 year costs are the same, and they often are, considering resale. I think i am not the only person who feels this way, and this is the problem--hence the rebates, etc. The 9-5 isn't a bad deal, based on HP and fatures, but it is an old old platform. Drive it back-to-back with an e-class, and the average lux buyer will likely see a few grad more as a bargain.
would like to know how you have formed your opinion
I owned the following SAABS-
86 900 ( I assure you nothing OPEL on it) 89 900T ("") 89 9000T
ugh sadly here's where it goes wrong (see next 2) 98 900S 2003 9-3 ARC
NOW 2006 Audi A3 (even if it was made in Brasil (which it's not)it beats a SAAB no matter where it's made) - much more fun with a DSG tranny that blows away my Saabs manumatic
I thought ( but i am likely wrong ) that GM bought saab largely for its US demographics, on the assumption that brand loyalty would keep them buying saabs.
I've heard both. Given GM already had Cadillac, and Saab's modest US share, I've always thought the Opel/Saab linkup seemed to make the most sense. The European press has always looked at the acquisition as such. That said, the US has been and remains Saab's single largest market (though the EU as a whole buys more).
i can't see buying one over an audi/bmw/merc if the 3 or 4 year costs are the same, and they often are, considering resale.
RWD anti-skid devices, and a spike (albeit tenuous with gas prices I should think) in AWD popularity seems to be pushing the FWD luxury models hard.
I worry about Merc ownership costs. It would be hard to pick a Saab over a BMW where costs are close. If I were buying a Sedan or coupe, I would probably go Beemer. A base SportCombi can come in signficantly less than the cheapest BMW wagon.
I am not sure about GM (I think they did not share platforms or engines before GM financial involvment) but SAAB 9000, Alfa Romeo 164 and Fiat Croma shared common platform design. I am not sure that it is better or worse considering that GM had to buy freedom for 2 billion USD from being forced to aquire FIAT.
Opels are not bad cars but they are not BMWs, Audis. They compete more with VW (VW, Seat, Skoda), PSA (Peugeot & Citroen) or FIAT.
Krzys
PS But then You have Opel Roadster built by Lotus. Nearest competition: Lotus and Miata.
When I moved to Manhattan 2 years ago, I got rid of my cars.
Before then I owned an L200 and a Mazda Miata.
I travel frequently for business and have rented many cars, including the new Saab and Volvos. My brother has been buying a new BMW 3 Series every time BMW upgrades for the last three model changes. My sister owns an A4.
From a pure driver's perspective, cost and rear seat room be darned, the BMW 3 series is best. I prefer the 9-3 rentals over the Volvos, which seem heavy and disengaged from the road to me. My sister's Audi is a nice looking car and decent enough to drive, but has had a lot of niggling repair issues.
On trips to Europe, I've driven the Opel Astra, Smart, and the Opel Corsa. All nice cars.
If I stay in Manhattan and buy a car in the future, it would probably be a Mini or the forthcoming Saturn Astra hatch. I don't really see getting a car while in Manhattan. If I move out of Manhattan, I would certainly consider a 2.0 Combi.
In any event, I have not been arguing about personal preferences. I have been arguing about objective facts. That is, Opel is as European as Chrysler is North American, and Saab's relationship with Opel pre-dates the GM acquisition.
my suggestion to GM drop the SAAB name and import OPELS if they are so great in Europe then americans will love them
Starting with the Astra next year (the Aura is very close to the Vectra but needed some safety, EPA, and interior changes) Saturn will begin to sell Opels with only the brand name changed.
Again, it does not help with entry luxury - Opels are not entry luxury cars. Whether Saab was the right choice is a whole other ball game.
I don't blame you for defending OPEL before but it's not a SAAB not matter what you do to it. IF (a big IF) pre-GM SAAB used Opel parts once in a while it was a small percentage and it was not perceivable whereas today SAABS are more Chevy/GM/OPEL than SAAB.
THAT is why I keep asking you what SAABS have you owned in the past - ? You never answer this part of the question
I'm thinking you have never owned a SAAB? Maybe you had an Opel?
I'd really like to know how you have arrived at your opinion. Do you work for GM? Are they paying you? Well if so please let them know b/c I am the consumer they wanted when they bought SAAB and they have lost me b/c they don't listen to us.
I do not think GM was good for SAAB. NOW the SAAB is MORE Chevy Malibu than the heavy, nimble turbo fun fun fun to drive Sweedish car it used to be. I used to love the way the doors shut and the way the turbo sounded. UGH now that opel engine with a turbo bolted on yuck!
Comments
Rocky
One of the things that GM does not have is money.
Krzys
Saab has a tough time, IMO, because it doesn't fit in a convinent slot. The cars are not exactly competitive with audi/bmw/merc/acura/lexus which is who they position themselves against. If you drive a 9-3 and a 325i back to back the 325 handles better AND is smoother on bad surfaces AND is quieter AND has a higher quality interior. Saab does generally give you more per dollar in the way of features but that's not exactly the point of upscale cars, that's the point of commodity cars. But from a commodity perspective is a 9-3 better than an accord/camry v6, for example?
Rocky
Rocky
We shall wait and see.
Krzys
I happen to like Saabs, a good deal. But boy, is a 3 Series more fun to drive, or what!
In fact, I think traction control on RWD is going to really push AWD Audi, what with gas getting so dear.
Opel and Saturn may get subcompacts as well. But these tend to be family or practical brands.
But a Saab lineup with a sub-compact, combi, and small ute may still not be enough to make a profit. If Saturn's return works, it will further hurt the market for Saab in North America.
Rocky
We strongly disagree pal. I believe Saab will be very profitable in a few years and be a desired upscale premium brand like Volvo or Audi because of the sophisticated multi-cumbustion engines they've been developing for the future. Saab will be a cross between Audi/ BMW/ Volvo, and in 3 or 4 years I'm wrong I'll let ya throw a water ballon at me.
Rocky
But won't Saturn be getting some of those engines?
Saturn already has the 2.0 ecotec. I think it is only a matter of time before Saab's, admittedly wonderful, 2.8 finds it way into a Saturn. At the very least, it has to be the base in the next generation, and wonderful RWD CTS.
I really like the 9-3 SportCombi's styling, in and out. But at the price, I am having trouble getting over my preference for RWD. I fear a lot of others see it the same.
Rocky
Ok, so are you advising people to not buy a saab until they add an acura RL suspension to it?
I have driven a g35 and 330 on a track back to back and our opinions of the relative handling is different.
High end cars aren't about "numbers". It's like food. You don't eat a filet mingon because it gives you a lot of protein per dollar.
Based off of saab's comparison site, a 9-5 blows away a 530 or e350 based off of features/$. But if you actually drive the cars, most people in the category seem to see the value. I HAVE driven these cars back to back and you are getting something for the price difference.
However, if you are shopping features/$ then there's lexus and acura. The TL has more standard features and is cheaper than the 9-5. So saab is wedged in an awkward place, they have to use the value argument against bmw/merc and the "presige" ( for lack of a better term ) argument against lexus/acura or even honda for that matter.
I'm still hopeful, i want to get a little roadster soon ( while i'm still young and single.
dave
Further agree. Also, horsepower keeps going up and up, and FWD simply can't cope with it. That is the reason the 2.8T "only" puts out 258 hp. Too much more simply wouldn't go through the fronts.
dave
You obviously drove a non rear active steer model to form such an opinion.
Rocky
P.S. I can't wait for the new Saabs either Dave.
In other words, all future SAAB's are merely going to be badge-engineered Opels, i.e., mediocre GM engineering and quality with a SAAB grille bolted on, peddled to the public as an upscale European car.
SAAB has ceased being a designer / manufacturer of automobiles - it is now just another GM "brand" - no different than Pontiac or GMC.
SAAB is dead. Get over it.
I do not see where I said that Saab is not consolidated with Opel. Indeed, if you go back futher than a month and a half ago, you will see where I said just that.
As for Opel being mediocre - I do disagree. In fact, in many ways, Opel product has been better than Saab for many a year.
Rocky
M
anyway - I actually miss the pre GM saabs. They felt so heavy but strong and powerful - basically now they are just pimp my ride Chevy malibus.
I now own an A3 2.0T which reminds me more of my 89 SAAB 900TURBO in the sense of fun 2L turbo power and heavy feeling but agile car.
I think you are better off to buy a loaded Accord today or better get get a loaded passat or a GTI - it's way better than a 9-5 or a 9-3 I am so sorry to say
Best thing that could happen to SAAB today is for VW/AUDI group to buy it and infuse so EURO style and feel to it.
Chevys suck and Saabs aren't any better
I very saddened former SAAB owner....
Opel has been GM since before WWII.
Opels are very Euro, and decent cars. Opel has been pushing VW hard in Europe for many years.
The new 9-3 is better in some ways, but the interior is a BIG step down. In general, the car has lost a lot of distinctiveness. The vestigal seat-front-pockets are symbolic of saabs transformation.
Drive a SEAT or a SKODA and I'm sorry SAAB or OPEL don't compare and my german friends do not consider Opel to be a real German car.
People in Europe buy Opels because they are nice looking and CHEAP - VW/AUDI good looks at KIA prices. If I wanted a KIA then a step up to an Opel would be a good idea. If I wanted a SAAB I'd be better off buying an AUDI or a VW.
Unlike Ford which took all the good things of Volvo and made them better GM has taken SAAB and turned it into a EURO KIA
BIG mistake- why buy these cars? that SAABARU they didn't even change the cheap [non-permissible content removed] subaru seats
this was not the kind of SAAB I remember before GM bought them
heck get into an 89 Turbo 900 and it's way more solid and fun to drive than the current cars
The one thing that is not SAAB on these cars is the Air Conditioning system, which is GM and a huge improvement. Anyone who knows automobile history knows that GM use to own Frigidaire; GM has superior Air Conditioning technology.
If you plan on purchasing a SAAB, then you should get the Sports Package, which is the AERO. You also should get the vented leather seats, which comes with seat heaters and fans. You will not find vented leather seats or seat fans on Pontiac, Buick, or even Cadillac sedans.
You should also purchase the extended warranty. Turbo can lead to much excitement and many problems. You should also realize that you cannot simply turn-off the engine when you get to your destination. Turbo gets very hot, and one needs to let the engine run for a couple of minutes while the car is parked to cool the turbo so that oil will not bake in it. Drive the other cars, and then drive a SAAB 9-3 or 9-5; you will feel the difference.
You should also realize that you cannot simply turn-off the engine when you get to your destination. Turbo gets very hot, and one needs to let the engine run for a couple of minutes while the car is parked to cool the turbo so that oil will not bake in it.
Yet I have never seen anyone ever do this, and I've never done it in over 150K miles driving a turbocharged car. Never had a problem with the turbocharger either. Cars have to be designed in order to function for the generally clueless. People wouldn't go near turbocharged cars if this were a must. Its like those who say you'll ruin your transmission by taking too swiftly from stoplights. A modern car has to be able to withstand this, not racing mind you, but you get my point.
M
put a new SAAB next to an AUDI, a BMW, a loaded VW passat or even a JETTA. compare the ride and quality and use of materials. Look at the resale value. There is no reason to waste your money on a SAAB and it's GM's fault. I owned 5 SAABS and GM ruined them and I am not happy about it.
Cadillac - for that Money why not buy a lexus ? much nicer ride and quality and resale is at the top. The Chryslers are nicer than the Caddys now in my opinion.
Anyway I can see you still like SAAB I just don't really understand why since the company no longer exists. It's just simply a badge meant to lure naive buyers. It's not a good car and it's not a good investment. Believe me I learned the hard way with my 2003 9-3 ARC.
The GM behemoth brings down another unique car company to the lowest common denominator.
No, the slightly unique 9-3 Combi does not a car company make. I wonder what sales of that model will look like in the first year. I think most people have forgotten there is such a thing as the Saab brand, so very few will even bother to check it out. It may be a "great car" - I have not driven it - but around $30K there are a heck of a lot of great cars.
2014 Mini Cooper (stick shift of course), 2016 Camry hybrid, 2009 Outback Sport 5-spd (keeping the stick alive)
Yes. As a matter of fact.
Opels do not compete with Audis, they compete with VWs, Renaults and Fords. Regardless of what your German friends may have said (do your friends know you don't capitalize their nation when you refer to them?) they compete well, with market share increasing in Germany at the expense of VW.
Saabs use more expensive suspension and engine components than their Opel counterparts. Pretty much what Saab has been doing for years, well before the GM acquisition.
The difference between Saab and Volvo is that Volvo has always had a full line of cars. Saab was never more than one or two models. It did not make money for years before the acquisition, assuming it ever did. Arguably, GM should not have wasted its time and money buying the brand. If it had not, unless Renault bought it, Saab would be dead.
Instead GM just took the easiest way out and took Opel cars(Subarus and GMC Envoys now too) and rebadged them.
After seeing this failure I would have been happier to see SAAB die off a broken company who built really cool cars.
I'm just bummed that GM had an opportunity here to revive and strenthen a great brand but it just seems all too watered down with ultra cheap fixes and careless and obvious rebadging. Well it's just the Cadillac Cimmaron all over again. It's insulting for GM to think consumers can't see that the car is really a Chevy Cavalier or that the SAABs now are just Malibus and Subarus.
I'm just not fooled by GM and I find their lame attempt to sell me a Faux European car is insulting.
I am thrilled with my Audi A3 it's much nicer than my 2003 Saab 9-3 was and much more fun to drive and Audi is way more respectable now than SAAB for not a lot more money.
anyway GM hasn't fooled me anymore and I have completely lost faith in their ability to build a car people really want
There is a reason GM is having problems now and it's entirely their fault for being cheap and trying to slip us these crappy cars which look great but are just pimped out Opels. They were short sighted in this and are paying for it now- I have no sympathy for them b/c they don't listen to the consumers.
I'm here to dissuade people from buying from a company that doens't deserve your money and to stop people from buying a car that may look great but with depreciation and long term satisfaction not being there-- you will be disappointed.
I am surprised to see anyone defend this company.
Claiming a Saab is a faux European car because it is based on Opels flies in the face of all rational thought.
Saabs are based on Opels. Opel has been a German based company since the mid-19th Century. It is older than either VW or Audi. It has and continues to be a very European car. The 9/7 and the 9/3 are sold only in the US. They are stop gap, meant to shore up a lineup of vehicles that simply do not appeal to enough US buyers to keep the Saab dealerships open.
Complaining about the Saab/Opel connection is a complete non-sequitor. Saab had been buying Opel platforms and engines for years before the acquisition.
Your German friends would also appear to be in the minority. Your complaints notwithstanding, both Opel and Saab have seen significant increase in market share in Europe this year, again, largely at the expense of VW and Audi respectively. VW and Audi are getting hit mostly for significant and pernicious quality problems, certainly not a German tradition.
ASIDE form that it was a nice car, though. It's interior was very high quality, it was very comfortable, was VERY functional, etc.
The new ones, well, the most obvious difference is the quality of the interior. The new 9-3 interior looks VERY cheap to me. That's the big problem to me, there seem to have been several steps down in the car ( engine note, utility, quality ) but the most obvious flaw with the old car ( quality ) has not been shown to be rectified.
It seems that instead of building a saab, GM tried to build a lower-cost audi
The 07 9-3 interior is significantly different from what is in the current model. The 2.0 litre turbo I4 as well as the 2.8 turbor V6 are pretty highly regarded.
Saab reliability is not as high as other US GM makes. Curiously, Opels are rated quite well in Europe. I do not know how Saab does in Europe.
I know you think I am irrational but the facts are:
Opels are often made in Korea by the former Daewoo and that is why they are gaining market share b/c they are tiny and cheap in Countries where that is very important b/c cars cost much more there than they do here and gas is much more expensive than the US.
I don't see Opel as being German b/c it's owned by GM and the cheaper cars are made in Asia. It's simply used as an entry way into a brand name that people see as German.
You can't say that about VW/AUDI- (TOTALLY GERMAN with all GERMAN engineering)
anyway like I have said I owned 5 SAABS and I have had it with GM (a failing company) and I think the crap they put out is an insult to my intelligence.
Now please explain why you like SAAB so much ? Do you own one now - have you owned pre-GM models?
I never heard of SAAB using OPEL before 1993 when GM bought 50% (then later 100%) of SAAB but if you think that means something - fine I can't argue b/c I don't know if that is true buuut all I can say is after 1993 when GM had part of SAAB they just ruined it vs improving it.
That's my opinion and I feel I have reason to say it since I WAS an avid SAAB fan. I don't want to argue anymore about OPEL - it really doesn't matter - the end product of GM is junk
so again WHY do you like SAAB? which models have you owned and what do you drive now?
Saab's 2.8T is a ward's 10-best engine. I haven't driven it yet, so it's hard to comment, but bmw's 3.0L has the same power, without the turbos. I doubt the 2.8T will stay on the list, i think it's more of a "look, saab is still making turbo engines" moment.
The problem is, saab is in the lux category. There are some awesome engines in the group. Audi's 2.0T makes a few fewer HP but it is essentially lag-free.
Saab is behind--they need to be better than some of the other badges to gain ground. I still have affection for quirky saab, but i can't genuinely say who they're "better" than at this point. Now, the points they gain are from being cheaper, then they are in danger of competing with subaru, honda, who are cheaper yet.
Opels are good cars. If there is a way out for saab, i suppose it must be being the "high-end" opels, the way lexus/acura work for their respective brands.
Nonsense. Most all Opels are made in Germany, Belgium, Poland and the UK. While GM does bring some GM DAT product to Europe, most are sold as either Daewoos, or increasingly, Chevrolets.
Opels main sellers are the very European built Astra, Zafria, Vectra and Corsa.
I don't see Opel as being German b/c it's owned by GM and the cheaper cars are made in Asia. It's simply used as an entry way into a brand name that people see as German.
It is an opinion, not based on fact. GM has owned Opel since before WWII. As I said above, GM sold only one or two Daewoo models as Opels. And that for only a few years. And GM is well in the process of moving all those products to the Chevrolet brand in Europe.
You can't say that about VW/AUDI- (TOTALLY GERMAN with all GERMAN engineering)
Also not true. VW/Audi makes vehicles in Mexico, Brasil and Argentina. VW/Audi have significant engineering and design facilities in Brasil. Opel, on the other hand, is consolidating its design and engineering in Russelheim, Germany. Indeed, GM's current plan is to begin designing all of its compact and many of its mid-sized vehicles in Russleheim, including those sold under US name plates.
I never heard of SAAB using OPEL before 1993 when GM bought 50% (then later 100%) of SAAB but if you think that means something - fine I can't argue b/c I don't know if that is true buuut all I can say is after 1993 when GM had part of SAAB they just ruined it vs improving it.
Not sure when Saab started buying Opel platforms, but it was well before 1993.
That's my opinion and I feel I have reason to say it since I WAS an avid SAAB fan. I don't want to argue anymore about OPEL - it really doesn't matter - the end product of GM is junk
As long as you admit your comments are opinion, I don't care what you say. But saying that its a fact Opel is not European is just plain wrong.
My understanding that this is always what GM had hoped for when it bought the brand. Opel is somewhere between a Saturn or Buick level market following in Europe, whereas Saab was closer to entry level Cadillac.
GM seemed to think buying Saab would be a quick way to fix this. Saab's facilities were lacking. And obviously Opel has been reluctant to fully integrate Saab. Whether it works or not I think is still an open question.
Frankly, I feel the Saab expenses have not been worth it for GM. But it not because Saab are less European now than they were before.
While i do not think saabs are bad, i can't see buying one over an audi/bmw/merc if the 3 or 4 year costs are the same, and they often are, considering resale. I think i am not the only person who feels this way, and this is the problem--hence the rebates, etc. The 9-5 isn't a bad deal, based on HP and fatures, but it is an old old platform. Drive it back-to-back with an e-class, and the average lux buyer will likely see a few grad more as a bargain.
but pls answer what do you drive now?
would like to know how you have formed your opinion
I owned the following SAABS-
86 900 ( I assure you nothing OPEL on it)
89 900T ("")
89 9000T
ugh sadly here's where it goes wrong (see next 2)
98 900S
2003 9-3 ARC
NOW 2006 Audi A3 (even if it was made in Brasil (which it's not)it beats a SAAB no matter where it's made) - much more fun with a DSG tranny that blows away my Saabs manumatic
I've heard both. Given GM already had Cadillac, and Saab's modest US share, I've always thought the Opel/Saab linkup seemed to make the most sense. The European press has always looked at the acquisition as such. That said, the US has been and remains Saab's single largest market (though the EU as a whole buys more).
i can't see buying one over an audi/bmw/merc if the 3 or 4 year costs are the same, and they often are, considering resale.
RWD anti-skid devices, and a spike (albeit tenuous with gas prices I should think) in AWD popularity seems to be pushing the FWD luxury models hard.
I worry about Merc ownership costs. It would be hard to pick a Saab over a BMW where costs are close. If I were buying a Sedan or coupe, I would probably go Beemer. A base SportCombi can come in signficantly less than the cheapest BMW wagon.
Opels are not bad cars but they are not BMWs, Audis. They compete more with VW (VW, Seat, Skoda), PSA (Peugeot & Citroen) or FIAT.
Krzys
PS But then You have Opel Roadster built by Lotus. Nearest competition: Lotus and Miata.
When I moved to Manhattan 2 years ago, I got rid of my cars.
Before then I owned an L200 and a Mazda Miata.
I travel frequently for business and have rented many cars, including the new Saab and Volvos. My brother has been buying a new BMW 3 Series every time BMW upgrades for the last three model changes. My sister owns an A4.
From a pure driver's perspective, cost and rear seat room be darned, the BMW 3 series is best. I prefer the 9-3 rentals over the Volvos, which seem heavy and disengaged from the road to me. My sister's Audi is a nice looking car and decent enough to drive, but has had a lot of niggling repair issues.
On trips to Europe, I've driven the Opel Astra, Smart, and the Opel Corsa. All nice cars.
If I stay in Manhattan and buy a car in the future, it would probably be a Mini or the forthcoming Saturn Astra hatch. I don't really see getting a car while in Manhattan. If I move out of Manhattan, I would certainly consider a 2.0 Combi.
In any event, I have not been arguing about personal preferences. I have been arguing about objective facts. That is, Opel is as European as Chrysler is North American, and Saab's relationship with Opel pre-dates the GM acquisition.
Agreed. BMW and Audi are not Opel's competitors. Buying Saab was supposed to correct this. May not have been the best solution.
it will all pay off in the end with overall satifaction
and to GM just dump the SAAB name it was better than OPEL in the past and now it's just equal
my suggestion to GM drop the SAAB name and import OPELS if they are so great in Europe then americans will love them
But don't try to sell us a car brand that doesn't exist anymore
Starting with the Astra next year (the Aura is very close to the Vectra but needed some safety, EPA, and interior changes) Saturn will begin to sell Opels with only the brand name changed.
Again, it does not help with entry luxury - Opels are not entry luxury cars. Whether Saab was the right choice is a whole other ball game.
I don't blame you for defending OPEL before but it's not a SAAB not matter what you do to it. IF (a big IF) pre-GM SAAB used Opel parts once in a while it was a small percentage and it was not perceivable whereas today SAABS are more Chevy/GM/OPEL than SAAB.
THAT is why I keep asking you what SAABS have you owned in the past - ? You never answer this part of the question
I'm thinking you have never owned a SAAB? Maybe you had an Opel?
I'd really like to know how you have arrived at your opinion. Do you work for GM? Are they paying you? Well if so please let them know b/c I am the consumer they wanted when they bought SAAB and they have lost me b/c they don't listen to us.
I do not think GM was good for SAAB. NOW the SAAB is MORE Chevy Malibu than the heavy, nimble turbo fun fun fun to drive Sweedish car it used to be. I used to love the way the doors shut and the way the turbo sounded. UGH now that opel engine with a turbo bolted on yuck!