The Future of Saab?

dhanley

Maybe it's just me, but i think that's precisely the wrong thing to spend time on.

I think the 9-3 is already a very nice looking car, and this seems to be a common perspective.

I think the car's flaws lie in the interior fit & finish, handling/ride tradeoff, and perception of reliability. At least that's why i didn't go for one, and i used to be a big saab fan.

rockylee

Well if you want to be percieved as a company that is turning things around, do you really want to leave a rock unturned ? Myself, I wouldn't and is why I can understand GM's desire to give Saab, a brand new reputation and fix the unreliability part of its image. I as a possible consumer of their product want to see a overhual of fit and finish, and feel taking what Volvo, does well and significantly improving on it they could have a big European flavor winner. Saab could be a hybrid of Volvo, BMW, Audi, Mercedes, with Lexus reliability mixed into one rock-solid, attractive package IMHO

Rocky

dhanley

Rocky, that's my point exactly. Gm is reskinning the car--changing its looks. They do not seem to be addresing the other isues.

I don't see how that's going to suddenly make them the best parts "of volvo, bmw, audi, mercedes, lexus" etc.

rockylee

The 9-3 needs to be re-skinned to buy them a few years until 2010 when they can overhual the whole car. I don't know what specific plans they have but maybe the interior will get reskinned with some better quality materials. A bump in horsepower, and throw in some new gadgets would make a worthy reskin for now to buy some time. The 9-5 is a very tired horse, and the Flagship, needs some major overhualing to tell the world we are trying to save and fix Saab, like we are doing with Saturn. I understand GM, has budget contraints right now and some projects are going to have to be delayed until they get some returns on their investments. Hopefully within 5 or 10 years the turn-around on updates will improve, but until then we will have to wait a few years. Like you said the 9-3 isn't all that bad so a reskin might really improve the car. Maybe tighten the suspension bit, and throw in some cost effective tad bits will make a nice car, alot more desirable. We will see.

Rocky

rockylee

LAS VEGAS — Saab has collaborated with DUB magazine on the 9-7X Aero concept, which the automaker hints may follow the 9-7X Altitude Edition into production.

Holy Smokes this is a nice ride. :surprise: :shades:

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117384#3

Rocky

anythngbutgm

Meh. "Pimp my Trailblazer"...

Big whoop.

rockylee

So I take it you don't like the "pimping" done to it. :P

Rocky

jchan2

I'm not exactly liking the "pimping" done to this...

But I guess everybody has their own opinions...

merc1

Throw away the entire Saab lineup except that 9-3 convertible. As long as the convertible is still there I'll always like a Saab.

M

rockylee

I can't wait to see the new and improved all-new
Saab 9-5 If it's what I expect I could perhaps add it to my short list. I'm hoping for Aero X styling cues and AWD with performance. I also would expect a big bump in interior design and quality. We will see next year.

Rocky

P.S. in two years we will get to see what the 9-3 and convertible looks like. I would expect a hard-top convertible with over 300 hp. That also could be added to my short list. I wouldn't be surprised one bit if AWD or a "Viggen" performance model is made.

nippononly

Saab should become the all-convertible car company...

krzyss

9-7X would become SSR.

Krzys

rockylee

LOL, that's pretty funny. :P

Rocky

merc1

They need some kind of twist to seperate them and draw attention to the brand. I saw one of the new 9-5s today, not bad looking for such an old car, though you can tell it is a senior citizen in younger duds.

M

nippononly

that just as the market was getting back into 5-door hatches in a big way, GM insisted that Saab drop all of theirs. :-)

But the other thing that has always been popular at the Saab store is the convertibles. Why not make it the all-convertible brand? Saab doesn't need a dinosaur like the rebadged TrailBlazer in its line-up. An amped-up and buttoned-down Acadia sibling, maybe. Gotta find a way to make it convertible though. Hmmm......

jchan2

Not a bad idea, but how are you going to sell enough Saabs in the Northeast?

Perhaps the only all Convertible, all AWD car company?

Hmmm...

rockylee

Saabs sell well in the NE jchan2. They are currently FWD. The future models I'd expect would be AWD though.

Rocky

jchan2

But does Saab sell a large number of 9-3 Convertibles in the northeast? I have a gut feeling that the majority of NE sales are 9-3 sedans and sportcombis.

Although I may be wrong...

rockylee

DETROIT — Sir Richard Branson is putting his lease payment where his mouth is.

http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/News/articleId=117637

Rocky

dhanley

Very cool. They really ought to be selling it here. I'd pretty much decided on a BMW, but running ethanol would be a hige plus for me.

andys120

But does Saab sell a large number of 9-3 Convertibles in the northeast? I have a gut feeling that the majority of NE sales are 9-3 sedans and SportCombis.

Although I may be wrong...

9-3 Sedans are the big sellers here in New England, followed by 9-5 Sedans and wagons. The 9-3 ragtop has as good share of the convertible market which is small here because the weather is so changeable. In my immediate area (central NH) the 9-3 convert outsells the Bimmer or Volvo and perhaps the VW but I doubt that's true of all of NE.

9-3 Combis, 9-7s and 9-2Xs are rarely seen. A friend who owns a 9-3 didn't even know what a 9-7 was til I pointed it out to her. That didn't surprise me because I've always maintained that Saab people aren't SUV people.

My next car may well be a CPO 9-5 wagon.

jchan2

Just an idea here, but I think Saab could sell more cars if they equipped their entire lineup with BioPower, and marketed it as an environmentally responsible luxury car...

Does anybody agree with me?

Around here in Middle TN, it's rare that I see a Saab at all, much less one that's been produced in the last five years

I've seen 1 9-7X on the road, 1 9-2X, and maybe a dozen 9-3 sedans, with a 9-5 sedan thrown in... Most of the ones I see are the old 9-3 hatchbacks or 900s...

dhanley

Running ethanol would fit right in with the saab demographic... Lots of "greenies".

However, i think part of the issue is that there are so many saab engines right now. The 2.3T and 2.0T aren't at all related, there is the turbo 2.8L v6, the 4.2L and v8 in the 9-7, and the flat 4 in the 9-2.

It woud be better if the 9-5 had been retrofitted with a ecotec; there is already a 2.4L ecotec, after all. Then they could make one biopower engine across their main car range. I think that would have been a better investment than producing the v6. Most of the saab faithful look askance at the v6, and even with the turbos it's not all that competitive...

rockylee

The Saab 9-5 would be best if it was fitted with AWD and a Twin-Turbo ecotec 4 cylinder engine. So basically take the Sky's engine and slap another turbo on it and give her about 350-400 hp. IMHO for a winning engine combo with Scandinavian All-Weather capability.

Saab needs to one-up Volvo.

Rocky

dhanley

There's a limit to how much practical HP you can get out of a motor, now matter how many turbos you slap on it . And i think the 9-5 chassis won't work well for AWD. They need a new chassis and motor.

rockylee

Agree they need a new chassis and motor. This is why I think a VVT Ecotec Twin-Turbo 4 cylinder with direct injection or SOMETHING along this line that is biofuel capable would be a good solution IMHO.

Rocky

jchan2

I have a feeling that some engine consolidation is in Saab's future- isn't the next generation 9-5 going to be on Epsilion Version 2.0?

Saab should reduce their engines down to:
2.4 Ecotec Turbo for a future 9-2 and base 9-3 models

2.8 Turbo V6 (the one currently in the 9-3 Aero) for the 9-3 Aero and the base 9-5

3.6 Turbo V6 (the one currently used in the Saturn Aura) for future crossovers and the 9-5 Aero.

From 7 down to 3 engines, and aren't the 2.8 and 3.6 related anyways? So that would bring us down to retrofitting BioPower for two or three engines, which probably is nowhere near as expensive as retrofitting BioPower for seven engines, like Saab has now.

Toss AWD on every model, market BioPower like crazy, and Saab might be on its way...

Plus GM could retrofit Biopower into ALL models that run the 2.4 Ecotec, 2.8 V6 and 3.6 V6, if they really wanted to, saving some more $$$ in development.

I have a feeling I am missing something here... This seems too easy...

merc1

Sounds like a pretty decent plan to me. Saab needs an edge because their traditional quirky character is nearly gone and what is left doesn't pull in many new to the brand buyers.

M

rockylee

merc,

do you like the Aero X styling cue idea ?

Rocky

jchan2

The big question here is are BioPower and standard AWD enough to bring buyers back to Saab? Audi has Quattro, Acura is working on installing SH-AWD across the lineup, and Subaru has standard AWD. I'm starting to think that Saab may need something more than AWD...

Any ideas?

rockylee

Saab, back in the day had features such as Ventilated seats that weren't found on other cars. GM, needs to come up with some gadgets that will make it truly unique. I think installing the Magneride suspension found on Cadillacs and Corvette's is unique enough as a place to start. Saab, has always been known for safety and adding more unique safety technology would help them greatly. GM, would do all its brands justice by inventing a advanced AWD system like Honda, is using with its Acura line-up.

What I'd like to see on Saab is not only a advanced AWD system, but make all their cars 4-Wheel Steering across the board. Saab, has always been a quirky brand and is known for doing things outside the box. Subaru, has AWD across its line-up and that has been a trademark. If Saab, would become the 4-wheel steering company w/ AWD they could have a brand identity once again. Saab, needs to not only top Volvo, in unique design but they also need to take what Volvo, does best in technology and safety and exceed those benchmarks with creature feature technologies.

I personally believe the Aero X concept gave the brand enough great design cues to style their future products. GM, now needs to make those bio-fuel power plants that are turbo, and twin-turbocharged, and offer the consumer one of the fastest, best handling, safest, and most comfortable cars on the market that even a none-car buff can say their goes a Saab.

Just my $0.03

Rocky

jchan2

Hmm... Interesting...

Sounds more like a gimmick than something usable though, but then again I said that about the Dodge Grand Caravan's Power Tailgate back in 2001...

That just might be the ticket...

dhanley

IMO, 4-wheel steering is a non-starter. It just doesn't add that much performance, and it costs a lot in weight/complexity. Mitsubishi already tried it, and if it really helped, you'd see it on $100K-$300K porsches and ferrarris.

The saab demographic is very much about practicality (safety, a good sized car to haul stuff, etc) and traits such as eco-friendliness and uniqueness. So, the biopower DOES fit in there. The move away from hatches does not. The SVC was a neat idea; i don't know why it was abandoned; most likely cost though, i assume.

I don't think the v6 is helping that much. 250hp out of a v6 with turbos just isn't that impressive; other manufacturers top that with regular sixes and get better fuel economy in the process. Used to be saab achieved advantages in fuel economy and power by turbocharging. Now VW, mercedes and even BMW and acura are producing more impressive turbocharged mills.

A friend of mine is a GM mechanic, and he was complaining how bad the GM flex-fuel vehicles are set up. Seems they need a long time to decide they've been refueled from petroleum to biofuel, and if they are fueled then parked, they may never figure it out, and run very poorly in the meantime. Here's hoping this is a learning experience that will get passed on to saab!

rockylee

dhanley,

Good post !!!!

However the 4WS or as Infiniti calls it "rear-acitive steer" has helped the M45 pull a stunning 0.90 g's on the skid-pad. I'm not saying the 4WS system is a life saver but even if it gives the brand some handling advantages/benefits it's a technology worth looking into. It sometimes is about gimmicks (not saying 4WS is) but truth be told sometimes that is what sells if you know what I mean.

Just a couple of $0.02 more.

Rocky

P.S. I also think 4WS would be a good technology for the european market because of the narrow roadways and tight parking.

dhanley

Well, i know infiniti calls it rear steering, but it's not. It's, as far as i know, just adjusting the rear camber. Usually, cars are designed to understeer, so more likely than not, it's letting the back slide out a bit, which might reduce the skidpad by .01.

It's not going to matter to saab, as a FWD car. And saab already has passive rear-steer, to counteract the understeer somewhat. It does that ok.

I'd attribute the .9 skidpad to extremely wide soft-compound tires on 19 inch rims.

It's **not** going to help you maneuever in tight spaces, at least not that system. GM used true 4-wheel steering in some of their big trucks that have a hard time getting in spaces smaller than an aircraft hanger.

rockylee

What kind of system was on the Dodge Stealths ?

Rocky

jchan2

Saab should build a hatchback; the 900 and 9-3 hatchbacks were volume sellers up until they were discontinued in favor of the 9-3 Sport Sedan.

I also think that Saab should have at least 1 or 2 V6s in its lineup, as on the higher end it will be hard to attract customers from brands like Volvo and Acura if your lineup does not at least have a V6, and if Saab plans on building crossovers a V6 or at least a very powerful turbocharged four-cylinder will be necessary. A turbocharged four-cylinder would work great in a 2002 9-3 hatchback type of design...

Any more thoughts?

dhanley

The stealth was a rebadged mitsubishi, which is the system i referred to..

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steering#Four-wheel_steering

Notice this lists the passive steering models including the current saab 9-3 and 9-5.

Note that i'm not poo-pooing it entirely, but i don't think it's the sort of thing to rebuild a car company on. It's not going to bring in new customers en mass.

I'm also not saying that a v6 is a bad idea, just that it's not best in class, and not a big edge over the current turbo 4.

I think there needs to be someting that people can say at parties about saabs and get the response "Really? That's cool, i need to look at one of those!" The fact that the biopower 9-5 gets more power on cheap and renewable ethanol strikes me as something in that category.

From my experience, when i had the saab and the bmw, friends who drove/drove in both got much more jazzed about the BMW. That had nothing to do with gadgets, either, the saab had more of those...

rockylee

To be honest I thought you were blowing smoke up my pant leg on the Saab 9-3 and 9-5 having 4-Wheel Steering even if it's a passive one. Very Very interesting....

I guess all they need now is AWD. I'd like to see GM, give Saab Twin-Turbo Bio-fuel power plant that makes well over 300 horsepower on top models. Take the 9-3 Convertible for instance. Make a retractible Hardtop like the Volvo C-70, add AWD, and perhaps tweak the 4-Wheel Steering a bit more. I'd also like to see them either add a better sport-tuned suspension or at the very least add Delphi's Magneride technology so you have the perfect balance of ride and performance. The most important thing for Saab, is to become way more reliable and get away from those chicklet size buttons for the audio/climate system. Saab needs a "state of the art" navigation and audio unit with voice recognition and a modern Scandinavian/European interior design. I'd personally would use the Volvo S80/Mercedes CLS as my benchmark I'd want to meet or exceed in design/quality.

Rocky

Just my $0.02

Rocky

dhanley

"To be honest I thought you were blowing smoke up my pant leg on the Saab 9-3 and 9-5 having 4-Wheel Steering"

See? Saab has been advertising ReAxis, and even the fans don't know. It's not something that creates a lot of buzz. I drove a 9-3 on a track, and while i guess i noticed it, it's far from a night & day thing.

rockylee

Interesting....I wonder if it can be calibrated to help the performance out even more. The Infiniti M's 4WS impresses me the most I suppose.

dhanley

Hm--in what way does it impress you the most?

merc1

Saab needs a car that isn't based on a some GM product, something truly unique. They also need a car that can perform with the class leaders. FWD can work to a degree in the entry-level class, but torque steer cannot. Saab had a brilliant idea a few years about about variable compression engine. GM of course killed that idea on cost. Saab needs innovative things of that nature combined with catchy styling and at least class equaling performance (without the killer torque steer). I've liked Saabs since about the mid-nineties because of their quirky nature, specifically the 9-3 convertible and when they had it, 3-door hatch/coupe model. The Viggen had the dreaded torque steer problem, but I'd argue that is what made it "fun". I used to like the 9000 back in the day, specifically the 900CD, but those days are gone. Hard to believe that current 9-5 is the 9000's replacement from that long ago and that there hasn't been any models in between (read long in the tooth). One of the British mags floored me when they asked if someone had been playing in "mummy's" makeup when they first saw the "new" 9-5.

M

krzyss

9-2x was not GM based and it was not a success.

Krzys

nippononly

That's because it was an overpriced Subaru with better seats.

Saab needs something that is actually ITS OWN. Not that it will ever get it...

merc1

I think I stated something totally unique or at least meant that. A warmed over anything else won't cut it as a Saab.

M

kyfdx

Saab is gone... they were absorbed by GM.. Might as well ask Packard to come out with an all new car.

dhanley

Well--saab hasn't made a car from scratch since long before they sat at the table with GM. It just isn't practical for a car company to develop an engine & platofrm unless you produce exotics.

The question is, will GM let them do the expensive R&D to produce a great car with the cost-effective underpinnings they will get from their parent company.

I do think their axing SVC says something.

merc1

Yeah that is pretty much the reality of the situation isn't it! Oh well at least the 9-3 Convertible still looks like a real Saab if you don't look to close.

M

rockylee

Well the 4WS system has helped the M pull a stout 0.90 g's on the skidpad and every review I've read gives credit to the "rear active steer" system for the M's superb handling.

Rocky