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Comments
My #1 challenge is that people are almost never willing to admit when they made a mistake and it's their own fault.
The power folding 3rd row seat isn't new. One article made it sound new, but it's been around since 2004.
The glass looks a bit like the Sedona/Entourage, but the rear taillights make it look unique overall.
It's interesting that they added some innovations but did not copy Dodge's innovations (Swivel seats, flashlight, 2 seperate screens).
LE model gets standard 3-zone climate control. That addresses hansienna's #2 complaint.
LE V6 models will get a power tail gate. That is very nice surprise. Usually you have to get the top model, or next-to-top model, to get that.
Watch, he'll end up buying another Toyota. That would be funny.
LE V6 gets a standard backup cam.
The Civic, the Accord, and the Odyssey all debuted a year after their comparable Toyotas did last time. I assume the new Odyssey will debut next year, but in this economy, assumptions aren't safe to make anymore.
They can tweak the small changes, though, especially the packaging.
The LE V6 moved way upscale (let's see pricing). It seems to fall between an Ody EX and EX-L.
I may know nothing of which I speak - just thinking out loud, really.
Toyota's van steps up exterior style, that's for sure. The only thing I'm not comfortable with is that grille, otherwise I think the van looks particularly sharp.
On the whole they seem to have moved in the Odyssey like direction- mother-in-law seat, lower ride, sporty handling- which makes sense if you read the car mags rave about the Ody. However I fear they will compromise some aspects that made me choose the Sienna over the Ody: the price, front and center middle seat, the ground clearance and passenger comfort. At least it looks like the dash still has more thought than the current Ody- except some of the controls look small and like they'll be a reach for the driver.
The giant vid screen and Lazy Boys in the second row look lux. How much will those options run? (rather pricey is my guess)
The SE gets all that stuff, sounds to me like that model is really the one that will chase Ody cross-shoppers.
They'll have 4 other models for traditional Toyota buyers - base, LE, XLE, and Limited, and none of those get the lowered suspension.
5 models and 2 engines and FWD/AWD and 7/8 seats. Look for another long, long list of models! :sick:
I doubt we'll see prices until early next year. It's supposed to arrive in Feb, I think, so we should see pricing announced maybe in Jan.
I do like the Honda's drive-ability better, but the Toyota's 8 seats seems like it has more options. (I have 3 kids under 3)
The Toyota comes with EVP #2 (power doors) windshild wiper de-icer, towing prep and mats.
The Honda comes with that dealer installed crap that Honda is famous for, but does have the rear DVD and power doors standard.
The thing is, Honda will give me more for my trade in and so I can get it for $670 more. The wife WANTS rear entertainment. (Would have to be after market on the Toyo)
Honda will do 0% interest for 2 years as opposed to 3 years for Toyota.
Which to choose ?
I ended up getting a 12" screen for $900, and the kids love it. Your kids are close enough in age that they'll probably even watch the same shows.
Flip a coin. Better yet, have the family vote. The van the kids crawl towards first wins. :shades:
I'm still dithering about what vehicle to buy. By the time I make up my mind, I probably will be too old to drive.
DC is forecast to get its first snow tomorrow, early for us. Should only be 2-3" though.
By better passenger comfort I was referring to the Sienna's quieter and smoother ride compared to the Odyssey. If they go for a more sporting and connected driving experience for the driver, the passengers will likely pay for the compromise.
My 2008 Miata is actually OK, but my 1993 Miata used to scrape bottom all the time.
Of course Miata owners complain that the new suspension is too high, so you'll never make everyone happy.
I had not thought of some of these things. I was thinking in terms of low ground clearance being helpful in getting one of my dogs into the van. She has weak back legs.
Oh well, as they say, there are no solutions; only trade-offs.
Honda is even more secretive. I bet their test mules have the current body on the new platform, so don't hold your breath.
We've had our Odyssey for 3 years and it's never ever been an issue. I drive highway, town and gravel roads. We drive in snow all the time and have never gotten stuck or hung up on anything.
I think some people are grasping straws trying to tear down the Honda...
If someone lives in the snow belt and specifically asks about it, then it matters to them.
If FWD is enough for you, that's fine, but if people want AWD and a bit more clearance it is available for them.
That's all we're saying. Nobody is tearing down anything, so relax, ok? :shades:
No hostility intended at all. Just making a point that something is being blown up that shouldn't be....And I live in the snow belt, so am qualified to comment on it.
When there is a lot of snow, most of the people out there are driving trucks and SUVs. The tires leave tracks and they pack the snow down between the tires. Low-slung cars are pretty hopeless because they high-center. A bumper or something gets caught up in the packed snow/ice, and they're stuck, even with the best tires or AWD system.
This is why, for instance, a WRX is not as good in the snow as a Forester XT with an identical powertrain. The WRX will high-center and get stuck, the Forester will not.
My street isn't plowed right away, so a WRX might be stuck for several days after a big snow storm. Our Forester gets around fine.
The difference is bigger in this example (~2" extra clearance), but the point is the same - you need a combination of traction and clearance to get around properly, at least until the streets are plowed.
I will say this - snow tires on an Ody would be fine for plowed streets.
I Googled "Odyssey stuck in snow" and got 334,000 hits, then "Sienna stuck in snow" and got 101,000 hits. :P
You need more than that, though. Clearance may even be more important than AWD/4WD.
A 2WD pickup with weight in the bed will do better in snow than a lowered WRX any day.
He's not going very far with that front bumper acting as a snow plow. AWD, snow tires, doesn't matter. He does not have enough clearance.
Edit: sorry about the pic size, what's the syntax to re-size it again?
For what it's worth...
This review discusses the trade-offs specifically:
http://www.samarins.com/reviews/odyssey_05.html
They list "Good handling for a minivan" as a strength but complain about the "Low ground clearance (good for stability but easy to damage lower front end)."
Ateixeira, our dog with the bad knees weighs 80 pounds. We may have to rent a crane to get her in a vehicle.
Overkill and likely expensive.
Tuesday: starts snowing, couple inches in evening; evening commute is crawling - 15 mph on interstates, about same on surface streets. Keeps on snowing overnight: 6 inches when I shovel out the sidewalk Wednesday morning. Temps around 10 degrees. Pilot does fine.
Wednesday: I don't bother shoveling the back driveway / alley part, because the plow has not come through yet. I back the Pilot out of the garage over 6 inches of snow, no trouble. Drive to work, looking for spot to parallel park. There's a spot very close to my building that has been ignored - why? There's about 8 inches of snow blown into it. I parallel the Pilot right in, no problem. Clearance and AWD matter here. Another inch or so falls on the Pilot by the time I return - again, no problem pulling out of the spot. The other cars near me have not moved, and are covered in 6+ inches of snow.
Coming home - no snow plows out yet - main streets are packed, but side roads have about 8 inches of random snow. Pilot does fine, passes many people stuck, pushing cars.
Wednesday night: hockey game - I take 3 players plus other son. Pilot is packed with 5 passengers, 3 hockey bags, and 5 sticks. Air temp is 0, wind chill much worse. When it's time to leave, I move the Pilot close to the door where they come out. They pile in, but the Odyssey parked next to me is trying to back out, but is spinning its wheels. I push it back, and it is freed. I start the Pilot and back up, no problem.
Finally, plows come out late Wednesday night / Thursday morning. Thursday morning (air temp now -2), I shovel out back driveway, except part where snow plow had pushed snow to the side. Pilot backs over 12+ inches of packed snow. No problem.
Anyway, I think your opinion of AWD and clearance depends a lot on what you face on a regular basis. For me, they're kinda handy
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.eea42d2/
http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/WebX/.ef0c1cc/
It seems like the Honda has lots more problems.
I don't want to start a flame war, but is it due to the Odyssey higher sales output?
Thanks for all the info.
I can only tell you my experience. I had an 05 and an 06 Odyssey The 05 was decent but the power sliding doors rattled and the dealer just kept putting lube on it. the Brakes were noisy. My wife wrecked it so I bought the 06 (both were bought brand new) Well the 06 was bad. For some reason it sucked gas like there was no tomorrow (14MPG) So you might want to check out the real world mpg thread. The door rattled, the transmission was hard shifting, when you went from reverse to forwards it would jump and felt like the transmission was going to jump out of the thing. They had to replace the power steering pump because it was very noisy. I know this was just a bad one but that is what I experienced.
We just had a big storm here in Iowa. The third heaviest ever and the grand total was about 12 inches of snow.
Now that was a storm for AWD vehicles. That was all that was out that day and they were far and few in between. One guy almost got stuck with his Chevy Silverado right in front of my house. :surprise: I stayed home for a day, but was on the road the next.
My point is how often are you going to see that much snow at one time in most of the US(snowy mountains excluded)? :confuse:
Back to the ground clearance issue. Unless your 4 wheeling in a back 40 somewhere it's a total non issue on most maintained roads. Can you spin out from slick roads? Sure. That's more a tire issue than a clearance issue. I will say the Michelins my Honda came with are not good snow tire. I'm looking forward to upgrading when they finally wear out.
I disagree 100% - if your suspension had an inch or two lift, you'd have an extra inch or two of clearance in the wheel wells. That would definitely improve things.
If you get ice sticking to your wheels try cleaning and even waxing them so it doesn't stick and throw the wheels off balance.
Clearance helps, of course it does!
I find it funny that when it comes to handling and a low center of gravity, the lower suspension on the Ody is cited as a significant advantage. Yet when we're talking about driving over snow, or ice, or even a tall speed bump, the advantage of the Sienna is dismissed as insignificant.
It is a trade-off, you can't have both, so pick which matters more to you.
More ground clearance helps you in the snow, period.
I can't believe people are debating this.
Is there room for those on the Odyssey, though? I'm not sure, which is why I'm asking.
Subaru recommends against those. You can mount low-profile Z-chains, but not the regular ones meant for large 4WDs. I wonder if the Ody really has room and if Honda allows that (again, I'm asking, I don't know).
how often are you going to see that much snow
Valid point. That's why I've said it depends on your needs. The funny thing is we have a Subaru, so I got the FWD Sienna. Never mind that our Forester has twice the traction, it also sits 2" higher, with more clearance underneath, as well as more space in the wheel wells. We did not feel the need for 2 AWD vehicles here in the Mid-Atlantic, since my wife works from home, so I'm the only one who really needs to get around.
it's a total non issue on most maintained roads
Agreed - and I acknowledged that earlier. Back roads are not plowed as early or as often as main roads, so we'd be stranded.
Our last blizzard was several years ago, but it took a good 7 days or so before they got to our street. I was buying milk for neighbors with Audis simply because I could get around and they could not.
Ground clearance absolutely does matter in that situation. It's absurd to argue otherwise.
Even though they worked, note their conclusion:
I felt like I was abusing it a bit. Maybe next time we'll rent an AWD or 4WD vehicle for the trip and avoid the chains issue altogether.
http://techinfo.honda.com/rjanisis/pubs/om/HH0707/HH0707O00385A.pdf
They say it's OK, and to put them on the front axle only. I guess that means you'd also have to turn off your stability control, since wheel circumference would be affected.
And note that even Honda mentions "your vehicle has limited tire clearance" on page 3 of the 6.
The SC1042 retails for $36 and Edmunds said they found someone to install them for $40 (but they had to remove them on their own).
So it's an option, ableit not a very elegant one. I'd suggest a set of snow tires instead.
Or just get one AWD vehicle for your fleet. :shades:
Why would you have to turn of stability control?? It measures yaw, pitch and slippage AFAIK. I don't believe it measures wheel circumfrence.
Personally I use snow tires but that is because I'm mountain bound in the winter.
One could also consider Auto Socks - www.autosock.us - it's not a snow tire replacement but could work for those caught by suprise.
When two wheels are turning faster than the others (which will happen with any circumference change), I'm thinking it'll find something "unstable" about that.
Those autosocks look interesting and may not affect the circumference as much, either. I'd see if you could mount those on all 4 tires, to maintain balance and avoid having the rear end slide out on you.
They look easier to mount and probably wouldn't make the CLOMP-CLOMP-CLOMP noise when you drive, also. They say limit speeds to 50kph (about 31mph) but that's more than enough if you're driving in conditions where you'd need them. :shades:
What happens when folks put only 2 new tires on the vehicle? Wouldn't that affect it also?
Besides, I think Honda would tell people to turn of the TSC if it were the case.
The auto socks seem like a much better solution.