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Daimler's abuse of the Dodge Charger legacy.

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Comments

  • stickguystickguy Posts: 32,616
    But, it is kinda hard to shroud a straight 6!

     

    I don't like them, because it makes it difficult to do a quick visual check fro problems (leaks, loose wire, whatever).

     

    Of course, these days I don't even know what most of the stuff is, but I can still tell if it is leaking!

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,206
    Any thoughts on the infamous ADM (Adjusted Dealer Mark-up)? Do any of you feel the Dodge dealers are going to do the same thing the Chrysler guys did when the PT came out? And mimic the Pontiac dealers with the new-gto, with their $5 - $8K markups.

     

    I remember seeing one dealer advertise base PTs going for $27K while they had two 1 yr.-old demo 300Ms going for $22 - $24K! The higher level PTs where going for mid-$30K.

     

    Just wondering how much the gouge is going to be and if there will be some dealers that will not.

     

    As a side note, those who bought the new-gto 6spd dodged the $1000 gas-guzzler tax that was tacked on for the automatic. But I believe they had to pay $695 to get the Tremec 6spd as it was optional, may be wrong though.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,496
    with the Charger. The PT Cruiser was a hot little number when it first came out, so it was only natural that the dealers would tack on a bunch of fees.

     

    IIRC, the Chrysler 300 was going for sticker price for awhile too, and some of them were selling with markups when they first came out.

     

    It's hard to say with the Charger, though. Back in September, I got enticed down to the dealer, where they were giving away barbeque tool kits free with a Magnum test drive.

     

    I drove a mid-level SXT that had a sticker price of around $26,500. Salesman right off the bat said I could probably get it for about $24K. They also had an SXT in the color I really love, Magnesium, with leather. It was a bit over $27K, but had a few thousand miles on it. He said I could get that one even cheaper.

     

    So evidently, they're willing to deal on a lot of these cars now. The Charger will probably get marked up, at first, but it'll come back down to Earth before too long!
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    on many of these situations, but I was raised dirt poor, so I've never had to have the latest and greatest.

     

    Some dealer groups use ADM stickers on all their vehicles, others just on hot sellers. The more comical ones, in recent memory, were the Lincoln Blackwood, which sold at $10k over sticker, then sold at invoice minus a $10k rebate 6 months later; another is the Thunderbird, same deal, same money over sticker, now they're invoice minus a $4k rebate...

     

    People absolutely FLOCKED to these things, especially the T-bird, and now have lost their collective butts when comparing a nearly $20k difference in what you paid for a T-bird when they first came out versus what you could pay now...

     
    Comical, I tell you, but that's the price you pay for having to have the neatest, fastest, coolest new thing...

     

    I bought my 2003 PT GT new in January 2003, paying invoice minus a $3500 rebate. Of course, when I traded it, they hit me at $3k back of book because they aren;t hot anymore - I really didn't get hurt in it, buying it for $18,500, putting on 59,000 miles, and getting $10,500 in trade just under 2 years later.

     

      
    To think that my braggart brother, older than I, paid $600 in 1979 money ($2500 now?) for a HUGE Panasonic Beta VCR. Only one on his block at the time, along with his new microwave oven, but now you can get a DVD/VCR combo for less than $60. Same for a decent microwave.

     

    Ironic, poetic justice.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,496
    did very many people...actually pay all that money for the Blackwoods and T-birds? Or were they more like the GTO where they just sat on the lot until the dealers begged you to take them off their hands?

     

    There's a dealer around here that will occasionally put ADMU stickers of $995, $1000, and occasionally, when they're feeling really ballsy, $1995 on every car on the lot. Even if it was a Cavalier, Malibu, or base Impala!

     

    They also offered these Cavalier and Impala "SS"es, which amounted to little more than a graphics package and a $2995 or so dealer markup. The Cav coupe "SS" actually looked pretty sharp in blue and silver, but the Impala was a sham. Aftermarket leather and ribs and wings, and a few SS badges. And often, not even an alloy wheel...usually they'd just have the base plastic hubcap!
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    needs a car guy calling the shots and not a beancounter.

     

    I had a guy trade in a 1992 Suburban 1500 4x4 "SS" back in 1994. He swore up and down it was Chevy package - I explained that it didn't exist and was just stickers and stuff, and he got mad that he paid $4995 over MSRP, plus paying MSRP, for a 4x4 in Wyoming...4x4s are needed there, so they're not rare. He was $12k upside down, still traded it, used a bunch of cash and a rebate, and swallowed his pride. We took off the silly stickers that any GM fan would know don't belong.

     

    I've already seen a few 300Cs done up with bling-bling wheels and roadster tops, so I'm sure a few Chargers will end up that way, but maybe not so bad. The dolled up 300C looks like a Cadillac or similar car, whereas the Charger won't exude "luxury" and should draw the drug dealer crowd.

     

    I'm looking forward to see some tuned versions of the Charger, though - should be interesting with 18 or 20" tuner wheels and coil-over suspension...
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,496
    has a 300 Touring, and he blinged it up a bit. It's still not TOO bad, though. He put a spoiler on the trunk, and those window guards that let you roll down the windows a bit in the rain.

     

    Inside though, the greatest travesty he did was buying a wood kit for it. When I saw it I made a comment along the lines of him setting the premium American sedan back 25 years. Or "suddenly its 1979", or something like that!

     

    Although to be fair, his 300 is Cool Vanilla with a light colored interior, and he picked a light wood color, so it's really not too far off from the "cashmere/driftwood" interior of my '79 NYer, and I think it wears it pretty well.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 9,090
    I may turn out to be favorably impressed with the Charger, but as the Inside Line story says, time will tell!

     

    Danger Lurks for Dodge Charger's Comeback as a Sedan

     

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  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    ...I always thought those cashmere/driftwood interiors on the 1979 R-body New Yorker weren't bad looking. That color combination would be a nice change from the mouse-fur gray that 90 percent of today's vehicles feature!

     

    As for the Thunderbird and Blackwood - I don't know about the Blackwood (didn't Lincoln sell fewer than 5,000 overall?), but I do believe that more than a few people did pay well over sticker for the Thunderbird.
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,206
    Same here. Out of all the vehicles I've owned, only one was bought brand new, and I waited and waited and went around until I got the best deal. I laughed myself at the Blackwood, T-Bird, Marauder, and now laughing at the GTO. Really laughed when that person put one on Ebay looking for a suck...I mean "enthusiast" to pay $50K for it. I know of some people (from posting) that paid the $5k - $8K+ mark-ups on those things, already over-priced @ $35K, bragging about being the "first". Now you can pick up an '04 for roughly $20 - $20K if you factor in rebates, incentives and other things. And I've still only seen four on the street since it came out last year.
  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,496
    is going to do much better than limited-production cars like the GTO, T-bird, and Blackwood. For one thing, those other cars were trying to build cachet and exlusivity, but in the end they ended up being about the modern day equivalent of the 1981 Imperial. That was another car that, when announced, was going to have limited production to boost snob appeal. They were going to build "just" 25,000 in the first year. Well, in the end they built about 7225 that year, maybe 3-4K the next, and about 2-3K in '83.

     

    In contrast, I look at the Charger as more of a 2006 Intrepid with a different name, than any kind of resurgence of a great name from the past. It's the kind of car that, when I'm in the market for something to replace my Intrepid, I'll go check it out. If I like it I'll buy it. If not, I'll buy something else or hold onto the Intrepid. But still, it's just a mass-marketed car with a cool name.
  • stickguystickguy Posts: 32,616
    Besides, the majority of the Chargers are going to roll out with the 3.5 V6 anyway.

     

    Not a bad looking car. I'll be interested in seeing one in person. WHen are these actually going to be available? Hopefully I can see one at the Phila auto show in a few weeks.

     

    ON another thread, someone posted some drawings of what is supposed to be the next Neon. Looks like a Charger nose, but very sharp from the side. Really sharp.

    2019 Acura TLX A-spec 4 cyl. (mine), and 2013 Acura RDX AWD (wife's)

  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,496
    if the Charger might still move a good percentage of Hemi models? I think with the 300, about 40-50% of them are the Hemi C, leaving the lower base, Touring, and Limited models to scrap for the remaining 50-60%.

     

    And, at least they're not sticking the 2.7 in the Charger! Although I think ther might be a fleet special that might be getting 2.7's.

     

    Even though I have a 2.7 in my Intrepid, and it's been a great motor for me, I really wish they would retire it. At least, it doesn't belong in a car this size. These engines are very expensive to replace when they go bad, much more than a bigger 3.5, and probably more than the Hemi as well, which is supposed to be a dirt-cheap engine to build. They've also developed a bit of a reputation for sludging, although I have a feeling that it's probably in the same league as the Toyota 3.0. Meaning driver neglect more than anything else.
  • andyman73andyman73 Posts: 368
    Since you are in that business, can you recall when you noticed engine shrouds being used? My 85 325e w/2.7 I6 didn't have one. My 99 Contour and wifes 04 Sable don't have them either. None of my Honda's had them either. I see so many pictures in car rags that show the hood up and a nicely shrouded engine. Oooh that really looks like a nice......hmmm can't tell, can't see the engine. Know what I mean?

     

    I like the Charger, and would be happy to drive one. Upgrade the wheels and suspension, open the exhuast a little, remove the dumb engine shroud...could be a fun car.
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    have domestics started using engine shrouds - German imports started using them on may models in the late 80s/early 90s.
  • jae5jae5 Posts: 1,206
    Any thoughts as to this connection? Meaning, is one of the reasons the Charger is coming back is because of NASCAR. Am wondering this because I caught a glimpse of a Dodge making the rounds during testing this past weekend on Speedvision.

     

    Take the shape of Charger's quarter panels and rear window / deck area for instance. Re-shaped to help the car get through the wind. Using a Magnum-esque front end, again, better for track duty. Can't really see DCX using a box 300C for NASCAR.
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    http://msn.foxsports.com/story/3313702

     

    It's already done...

     

    http://www.dodge.com/autoshow/news/ (read the bottom of the page)
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    ALL the NASCAR autos look the same now. Now that old pic http://msn.foxsports.com/id/3313696 of the 43 car looks awesome! The cars all looked, let's say, stock. Ah, that is right, it is called stock car racing. The new Charger should fit right in with the rest = boring. Well I may add, the FWD Monte Carlo has some style to her. Give her a 5 on the floor, RWD, and a gas pedal with is not place low in relationship to the brake, and ya got a real car there. Even an automatic would do, I guess.

     

    Loren
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    back, he was wishing that cars had style like in the old days, when you could tell a Ford from a Chevy from a Dodge...he said now, all cars just look like used bars of soap...
  • grbeckgrbeck Posts: 2,361
    With the need for aerodynamics, it's harder to give cars distinguishing features. I'm anxious to see the Charger in real life - in the photos, it has an aggressive, distinctive look that recalls the domestic cars of the 1960s. It will be interesting to see how that translates into real life.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    " With the need for aerodynamics, it's harder to give cars distinguishing features. I'm anxious to see the Charger in real life - in the photos, it has an aggressive, distinctive look that recalls the domestic cars of the 1960s. It will be interesting to see how that translates into real life. "

    Yeap, looks like the rectangular box look of '65, but they could have had the beauty of '67 - '73 models of USA cars instead. Too bad. The 300M is aerodynamic and had distinguished features. Boxes don't really look aero to me, though some cheat air more than meets the eye. I imagine those gawd-awful high door window sills will be on new Charger too. Cars are starting to look and feel like chop top tanks. Put a gun turret on the top and ya got it.

     

    Loren
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 9,090
    I'm in the camp of wishing for the return of "style", meaning the time when you COULD tell cars apart with a quick glance. If you design cars for aerodynamic performance, they HAVE to wind up looking alike. Rather than bars of soap, I think they all tended to look like Taurus' of differing sizes!

     

    Maybe that's why I don't have as strong a reaction about the Charger. At the very least, you can tell what it is with a quick look.

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,496
    if the cars are REALLY starting to look all alike, or if it's just because we're thinking that they all look alike. I know that might not make much sense, but if you look back through various car publications and automotive history books, it seems like people have been griping about the cars all looking alike since probably the dawn of automotive history.

     

    I wonder if it's something that is just ingrained into us in childhood, which is when most boys start getting interested in cars. The first thing they do is learn to memorize all the different names and styles, both of the cars that are new at the time, but also older cars that are still somewhat common.

     

    Then, as we get older, there are more important things to think about than cars, so all the different styles and nuances of each model sort of get put on the back burner, and as a result, we start thinking that they all look alike.

     

    I have friends who aren't all that into old cars, and while they can identify just about every current model out there, when it comes to something from the 50's, 60's, 70's, or 80's, they all look alike to them.

     

    One of my buddies has a 1978 Mark V. I asked another one of my friends what he thought of it, and he said "It looks just like your car", as he was thinking of my '79 New Yorker. Now, maybe that might be a bad example, as both cars were styled by the same people. A bunch of Ford stylists jumped ship and went to Chrysler around the same time as, and even before Iacocca.

     

    The auto industry is also very reactionary and trendy. As soon as one car discovers a new trend, suddenly everybody else is jumping all over it. Often whether the trend has really caught on or not!

     

    In the 60's though, and onward into the 70's, the cars DID start getting to be more and more alike. The biggest cars really didn't get that much bigger, but the smaller ones certainly did. For example, between 1956 and 1976, a full-sized Chevy grew by a much larger amount than a Caddy DeVille did. Same with Fords and Plymouths, versus Lincolns and Imperials/New Yorker Broughams.

     

    Another trend started catching on, big time in the late 70's: badge engineering. In the past, while a variety of different cars might have shared the same platform, window glass, and even running gear, at least the sheetmetal, bumpers, grilles, interiors, etc, were different enough to make the cars unique. But with badge engineering, the cars started using pretty much the same sheetmetal, with only easy-swap items such as grilles (or if you were lucky, the header panel), taillights, and trim being changed. And since the place where the taillight went was the same shape regardless of car, that meant that there could only be so much differentiation in taillights.

     

    I think aerodynamics did play a big role in making the cars all look alike, as there are only so many shapes you can come up with that are aerodynamic. And now that cars don't have very many things that stick out on them, such as taillights, grilles, bumpers, creases, ridges, etc, it tends to give the car a generic look.

     

    One trend that's really bugging me now is how it seems like everybody's going for the same triangular-shaped Camry/Taurus-esque taillight treatment. Buick recently started it with the LaCrosse. And now it looks like the 2006 Impala is going to do it as well!
  • driftracerdriftracer Posts: 2,692
    "Rather than bars of soap, I think they all tended to look like Taurus' of differing sizes!"

     

    It was a newly restyled 1996 Taurus that Dad was referring to...
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAPosts: 9,090
    While it's true that everyone might jump on a styling trend, (fins and chrome come to mind) it used to be a LOT easier to determine not only manufacturer, but also model year at a quick glance. A '56 Chevy was pretty distinct from a '57. But it's MUCH tougher now. I think it's easier to tell apart years on old VW Beetles than it is on cars from the last 10-15 years. For example, which of the following in the '95 and which is the '96?? (no cheating and looking at the image properties...LOL)

     

    image

    image

     

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  • andre1969andre1969 Posts: 23,496
    back then, even the changeovers from year to year, within the same design cycle of a car could often be pretty substantial. For example, in the '55-57 Chevy, not only did they change stuff like the grilles, chrome, interior, and taillights, but they even changed the sheetmetal!

     

    Then, fast forward to today. Now, I'll admit, I can usually pick out a 2000 Intrepid base model from all the others, because of some subtle differences. But I have also owned one for over 100,000 miles too. If I didn't, they'd probably all look alike!

     

    Anyway, the 1999 base Intrepids used a 15" wheel and different wheelcover. 2000 was the first year that the 16" "twisted star" wheel/hubcap was used. For 2001 they used the same wheelcover, but started calling the base model "SE". They put the "SE" label on the black plastic part of the rear door, right after the rear window. For 2002 they cheapened the interior, changed the hubcaps, and moved the "SE" to the trunk of the car.

     

    Considering how little they change these cars yet they STILL can't make money on them, it makes me wonder how they could afford to make such substantial changes every single year, back in the old days!
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,726
    I think that is so true...younger people who at least casually follow cars can differentiate modern cars, if by make and model rather than year (as cost cutting has eliminated most year changes) while thinking most old cars are all the same...while people who used to follow cars but lost the desire can tell a 59 Chevy from a 60 Chevy by the bumper, but can't tell a Taurus from a ES330. It's all relative. I've had younger people not even realize my fintail is a MB. One guy thought it was a Bentley!
  • andyman73andyman73 Posts: 368
    Couldn't tell your fintail was a fintail? Now that is just plain wrong! I mean come on, what's wrong with kids these days?
  • fintailfintail Posts: 47,726
    Here's what I got once "Are you the guy who has the old blue Bentley?"

     

    This was at college....nobody had an actual Bentley to cause confusion, for sure. Funny though, kids and older people appreciate that car most.

     

    When my grandpa started to go downhill, he was pretty sure that my 126 was a Chrysler.
  • m1miatam1miata Posts: 4,556
    Why not add a Charger badge to an Intrepid R/T ? Slick and sporty - around 250HP. The 300M looked great side and back profile, with a so-so look to the front. The new 300 is different, I must say something to get noticed. With imagination, you could transform it into a poor man's Bently, or otherwise think of it more as a Marathon, Checker Cab. Saw one in black and it was kinda rich looking. Just don't paint it yellow ;-)) The rear wheel drive was an excellent idea, the change in lines from slick and flowing, to boxy and flat sided, I could have done without. And at what point do the door window sills stop moving higher? Soon, only a slit of a window will remain. Side windows will be gun ports?

     

    Loren
This discussion has been closed.