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Comments
If CR didn't report above average reliability for Subaru, would you Subie loyalists have such faith in their ratings? For an excellent analysis and critique of CR's statistical problems, check out this website, True Delta.
And yes, Juice, you are absolutely biased towards Subaru. That's fine, I have my car biases as well. But if you mouth off about another make/model, don't be surprsed if someone calls you out on it.
Please note that an Audi S4 is not an A6. I test drove a 2001 S4 and thought it was crap. The 2003 A6 I ended up buying was night and day better. I would also like to see how you quantify the statement "Don't forget, a lot of S4 owners traded them in for a WRX after tiring of problems, including a friend here at work." So your friend at work somehow morphs into "a lot"? Funny. So aside from your co-worker who had a late '90s B5 S4, your opinion about the A6 is based on dubious ratings from CR. I think that's a weak basis for your opinion.
From my experience dealing with S4 (2.7T owners IIRC) my samples size is about 200, and I'd say 90% of them considered the turbos to be wear and tear items that went at 40-60k miles along with numerous electrical gremlins (very common on VW products IIRC).
-mike
I never made that claim, and now you're just being childish. I've treated you respectfully, is it too much for me to expect the same in return?
A friend at work was not the only one. It was a common occurence on the WRX boards right here on Edmunds and on Nabisco, read through the archived threads if you don't believe me.
don't be surprsed if someone calls you out on it.
Be my guest. I listed my source and stand by it.
CR has flaws but it's the best data we have available. The A6 shares the S4's powertrain. The A6 2.7T is specifically listed as a "used car to avoid" for model years 2000, 2001, and 2003.
I'll say it again, the 2.7T engine has a reputation for poor reliability, both from second-hand information from friends and Edmunds members as well as by CR. Those are enough for me to rule it out as a used car purchase.
I stand behind what I said before, and still do.
Cheers. :shades:
Audi scored badly under the old system, too. LOL
"It sounds like a tall order, and we got our first chance to drive the Tribeca recently to confirm whether Subaru was blowing sunshine up our bums. What we found is a very well-balanced, stable, and confidence-inspiring ute—just like its predecessor—only faster.
The larger motor is quite prolific, with increased torque all through the rev range, making squirting through the mountains south of Palm Springs, California, a brisk affair. The manumatic transmission makes it easy to keep revs high, where most of the fun is, though we wished for steering-wheel-mounted paddles in addition to the floor-mounted deal. That said, it’s rare that a sport-ute drives well enough to prompt us to shift ourselves, so we’ll consider ourselves fortunate.
Turning the steering wheel is met with predictable response and nice feedback, requiring just enough effort to feel engaging without being exhausting. On the highway, we appreciated the excellent on-center feel. Body motions are beautifully managed thanks in no small part to the low mounting of the lightened H-6. So enjoyable is the ’08 Tribeca to fling about, that if you had your eyes closed, you might swear you were driving the previous-gen BMW X5 3.0i, provided your ears weren’t expecting the whirr of Bimmer’s distinct I-6."
Sounds pretty good, performance-wise. They still didn't really like the exterior styling and thought the 3rd row was cramped (duh! It's not a full-size SUV or minivan!). They also screwed up and, just like last time, said the second row has less legroom in the 7-pass models (they just didn't slide the seat all the way back past the safety stop, which is what you'd do when you weren't using the 3rd row).
You can read the entire first-drive, plus photos, here. (Hopefully the mods will forgive me for posting that link - it's probably better than trying to post the entire review here, and the original story isn't online to link to anymore.)
And a couple personal experiences from "insiders" on another forum who were able to do brief drives:
"The big news is definatly the Engine! Its a great engine!!! We romped on it up and down the street just to see how the transmission and engine were doing... OMG, to me, its a completely different beast. Its MUCH stonger than before, throws you back in your seat like a Forester XT Auto does but with more low-end off-the line power. I'd say its a high 14 second car, definatly faster than my 2.5 manual Impreza.
Also, the engine sounds different...
It doesnt sound like the 3.0's that kind of sound high-strung, it sounds beefy like a boxer motor should.
The transmission shifts very nicely, it was predictable and worked great with the meaty power of the engine."
"the new engine is much smoother than the old. I only got to drive it a short distance but the new motor feels as if it has more "grunt" down low and doesn't feel strained when accelerating. Also felt a tad quicker than the 3.0L."
Wards Auto also has a detailed breakdown of the new engine:
http://wardsauto.com/ar/subaru_develops_boxer/
I have 3 so far on the 2008 Tribeca but 2 were black holed.
FWIW, I never complained about the old 3.0l H6, in fact I always defended it. I welcome more torque, sure, but I would have been fine with the old mill. This is a people mover, not a sports car.
One thing that could be reasonably deduced from the piece is what anyone who has taken a first year course in stats. knows: A basic statistical axiom is (in english, not Latin) "What is true of the individual is not neccessarily true of the group. What is true of the group is not neccessarily true of the individual".
People in barrels going over Niagara comes to mind; occasionally one would live to tell the story. Still not a good idea to go against the evidence.
It also reminds me of some old junkies that liked to think that because someone somewhere knew about some junkie somewhere that lived to be 80 that the stuff they were taking was not really a problem and that information to the contrary was just a plot hatched up somewhere by someone.
Cheers!
Oh come-now! I usually pop the back of the truck to line it up
-mike
You may view the Tribeca as just a people mover, but I think Subaru needs to position it as more fun to drive in order to differentiate it from competitors like the Pacifica, Murano, Pilot, RDX, CX-9, Acadia, Highlander, Edge, Veracruz, et al.
The discussion about my A6 reliablity and CR ratings may have been off-topic, but it brings up a salient point - cars in general are more reliable than ever. Subaru can not hang its hat on only being reliable, safe and offering AWD. Those have become the starting line of cross-over SUV consumer expectations. So how does Subaru exceed those expectations? That is the multi-million dollar question.
Considering the sucess Subaru has had with sporty models like the Forester XT, Legacy GT and WRX, it would make sense to extend this unique brand quality to its flagship model.
I agree about competitors offering more room. I test drove an Outlook and a CX9, and both have a LOT more room. I sat in a Veracruz but haven't driven one yet.
The ones I drove were a lot less sporty, and a bit cumbersome to park (I hopped a curb in the Outlook), but I see your point and agree there.
I also agree that the *difference* in reliability nowadays is much smaller than it was a decade ago. Plus brands that were formerly dismissed as also-rans are producing solidly competitive, reliable cars (think Hyundai). Subaru can't rely on reliability alone to sell their cars, in fact Hyundai beat them in this year's CR ratings for manufacturers.
A flagship Tribeca makes sense. It's not the model I'd choose, but it could be a nice halo for them.
Car & Driver said the new H6 felt like a BMW X5 3.0, so maybe they need an upper model to go chasing the V8 model. :shades:
With gas approaching $4 per gallon and kids loaded up safely in the back seats, that's not exactly what I'm looking for, but still, having the STI helps sell a lot of base model Imprezas and WRXs, sure.
I'd rather see the tribecca get feature-packed items rather than making it any more sporty than it already is. Or build it to tow more etc. That would help it out more than making it more "sporty" in my opinion.
-mike
Plus, it's not like the Tribeca doesn't have a sporting bent already - 18" wheels and 60 series tires, independent, fairly taunt suspension, decent brakes. And I'm not talking about a WRC conversion - more like applying Mazda's approach of emphasizing handling, braking and acceleration.
For the future, the Forester is likely to move to a 104" or so wheelbase (at least as long as the Impreza's), so we can expect the next Tribeca to grow bigger.
Some people already think it's too close in size to the Outback. The cargo floor is roughly the same size, trading off an inch here or there.
Actually Juice, C&D said it drove alot like the last generation X-5 if you closed your eyes and didn't listen to the engine. The "New-Gen has more power and re-designed suspension geometry with 19" wheels for the Sport Package.
I'm actually attending the Drive for A Cure event at my local BMW dealer today and have scheduled a test drive of the "New-Gen" X-5. It is the 3.0si with Sport Package. Alot of people don't realize how much difference the Sport Package makes in a BMW. The handling is night and day difference between the with and without Sport Package. The "Old-Gen" X-5 was a seven year old design, so I would hope the '08 Tribeca could at least equal it's handling. I will post my opinions after today's test drive.
I really, really want the Tribeca to succeed. We have had good luck with our Tribeca and the wife loves driving it. I'm glad to see a modest power gain but am disappointed with the Front End design now.
Maybe it will grow on me.
I agree. They sell a lot of non-Sport automatics to the yuppies that just lease a new one every 2 years no matter what. :P
Bob
I'd like to see it tow at least 5000-5500lbs which would put it firmly in competition with the Honda Pilot. It would also allow me to tow a Subaru Race car with one
-mike
My understanding (from someone in the know) is that the tow limitation is pretty much based on engine cooling, or lack there of. The rest of the vehicle is pretty strong and should be able to handle more towing.
Bob
Unless things have changed, Sport Packages all come with Summer Performance tires. I have an '07 335i with SP and it has summer performance tires.
Bob
The X-5 4.8 the dealer had on the lot when I bought my car had 20" factory rims with summer performance run flats. These are an upgrade from the standard 19" Sport Package wheels/tires. They were Continental's. I will confirm again today on test drive.
If you have a different trailer nearly every time (or tow quite rarely), it can be a pain in the rear....
I have foudn that backing up the nearly 40' boat trailer is much easier than the 5' jetski one!
-mike
Same here. Those dinky trailers can be a real pain to back up and to hitch. I usually just hitch them by hand unless they are prohibitively heavy.
5th wheel trailers are my favorite. Those things are so wonderfully well behaved that one can get spoiled towing them too often.
-mike
Speaking of trailers...
Yesterday afternoon, around 4:30, there was one of the worst accidents that the Maryland Chesapeake Bay Bridge has ever seen. Someone in a Navigator towing a trailer (not sure what size or kind) had the trailer break loose from the SUV on the downward slope of the bridge. The result was a 5-vehicle pile up (2 pickups, a large flatbed truck, a tanker tractor-trailer and a car) with 3 fatalities and 5 injuries. The bridge was closed almost until midnight cleaning up the wreckage. It was an absolute mess.
Bob
Saw that on the news, I'm glad I wasn't heading to the beach condo, 'cause that's the path we take. Rt. 50 eastbound was closed for HOURS.
Bob
Sorry that happened, Bob. I have seen a few travel trailers break loose up here on the Seward Highway. One, I actually saw happen in front of us. Each time everyone was extremely fortunate and the trailer managed to drift from the right lane off onto the shoulder before being pulverized off the roadway. Only a couple weeks ago, there was a restored 1965 Mustang that came off its trailer on the Parks Highway and was destroyed when it rolled down an embankment.
Securing one's trailer and cargo is no joke.
-Karen in :shades: AZ -
The Tribeca has incredible "wow" factor both inside and out. Just awesome! The ride is comparable in our opinion but the Edge definitely has better power and performance. In reading many of the posts here some seem to think the Tribeca is underpowered and many call it adequate. Is this an accurate statement? My opinion would be adequate power at best. We seldom haul more than the two of us and live in flat country. What is the real world reliability of the 3.0? We have never owned Subaru but know that that engine must be working awfully hard to move this heavy vehicle?
I know the 08 will have a larger engine and different transmission but in my opinion it looks like everything else. I guess we have to weigh WOW vs. power considering 07 or 08. I would appreciate any opinions and info. Thanks for the help.
I like the Ford, and hope the reliability works out well, but there is no track record yet. Consumers Reports shows the Beca with better than average two year reliability numbers.
As for green, they get poor mileage, when compared with the competition and relatively sluggish performance for the family type vehicles. Some bigger heavier true 4WDs get better mileage.
I notice JD Powers 3 year-45k reliability rating has Subaru at substantially lower than average. Ford, and of course Toyota and Honda fare much better. CR's review seems to be an anomaly.
Styling is subjective. Those of us who bought the 'beca did so because we liked it. I preferred it almost just because it was a bit different. I guess I like owning a vehicle that people ask...'what kinda' car is that?' (I usually say Alfa Romeo)
As far as accelleration- what the 'beca lacks isn't power, but torque. Sport mode helps quite a bit, as it keeps the RPMs up there in the range where there is power. Also, the transmission is adaptive, so if you've got a heavy foot, it learns to expect that from you. Also, it does cool things like hold a lower gear if it senses that you're accellerating through a turn. The 'Beca has the ability to really make the most out of its 245hp, but yes, there are faster CUVs out there (the V6 Rav4 being a good choice for raw 0-60 time)
If I were shopping now, I'd be seriously looking at the 08's, unless you can get an '07 for a steal...which you probably can. Think $3K below invoice territory.
The other AWD systems, like Haldex in Ford, can provide good emergency out-of-the-snow traction and because of their primarily front drive nature give better fuel economy.
However, The Subaru will be more pleasant to drive with a more sporty feel. I have neighbors who are getting ready to replace their ancient Legacy wagon with a Honda CRV instead of a Forester because of MPG.
If you think the problems you have are bad how about needing a totally new transmission on a Ford at less than 40k, 5 years later the same model does the same thing (ok so I'm crazy to buy the same car again but then Ford had given us 4500 towards a new one so we wouldn't join the class action lawsuit against them for the junk engine they also have which they had to extend the warranty to 100k for, plus it was 0.9% financing then).
I have close to 450K over 15 years on 5 Subarus and the only real problems I have beyond what I would consider wear, old age issues was needing a new a/c under warranty. And that was probably my fault being in a crash which probably made the freon leak and then the compressor got damaged.And needing a new pneumatic suspension system on a 92 Legacy (now that system was a total gimmick)
Compared to some makes, especially US ones, Subarus are still way ahead on relaibility on the important mechanical stuff. Sometimes you just get a lemon, like my 86 Acura Integra which was a total piece of junk (coming from someone from a family with enough Hondas to start a used car lot)
The new engine is noticeably torquier, and simply makes its power sooner in the rev band. The transmission hunts around a lot less simply because it doesn't need to shift.
I was in the camp that considered the 3.0l H6 engine fine, but then this new engine is more than fine. It's a hoot, actually.
I really enjoyed the controlled ride and suspension, it handles 753.4 times better than any minivan I test drove. This I will miss, as you definitely make that sacrifice to get all the extra space a van offers.
Also, when you floor it, the vans have torque steer, and the Tribeca doesn't at all.
If DRIVING was the priority, I would have picked the Tribeca without a doubt. In fact I sort of regret test driving it, because it's just so nice to drive. :shades:
Bob
I'm not sure if I want to put a hitch on this, or wait to put it on the 09 Forester we intend to shop for.
I can get away without a hitch for this year, usually I buy new wood chips every other year, and do 2 loads at a time. So I'll need it again in 2008. I can always have it delivered.
Funny thing about the van - the bikes fit inside - easily!
That's cheaper than a hitch and cooler. You could rent a truck at HD or Lowe's as well for $20.
Thanks
SC
they did have to take the third row seats out and remove a lot of stuff to put them but all for what is ultimately a better working retractable cargo cover made of cheaper material (canvas as opposed to leather of the 06 bungee cord cover) and just black not matched to the interior. So the first one was better material and cheap design, and the 07 is better design but cheaper material.
with going to the beach/shore this summer and a baby on the way, i wanted to have t he convenience of the retractable cargo cover and not deal with unhooking the old thing which interfered with the cargo net and then flopping over the top of the seats etc. But as much of an improvement as it is, its not a $700 improvement. prob worth more like $100.
once they told me how much it was going to be, it would have been dumb to not go t hrough with it. i should have asked for some type of discount consideration as it was the dealership i bought the car from.
I inquired about the 08's which btw aren't bad but i still like the 07 better and the best offer with trade in on my 06 for an 07 special edition with some low mileage on it still would have cost me 8k or so so the $700 for the retractable cargo cover and panels to accomodate was cheaper then that, heh.
Considering i ony paid 1k off of msrp back when it first came out and all the accessories i've spent on it plus tintned windows, tires, wheels, bulb replacements etc, i spent way too much for an underpowered un respected vehicle/brand. oh well, i've enjoyed and still think it looks great but I dont see myself sticking with the Tribeca or Subaru.
Prob keep it another 2 yrs and then get an MDX where i'll get more for my money, not spend much if any extra and not have any of the issues or problems or the next model year coming with stuff the first one should have had and then having to pay a ton extra to get it etc.
Meanwhile the 06 cargo cover goes for pretty cheap so it sucks i can't get much for it but if anyone is interested in a beige 06 cargo cover and the 06 rear interior cargo area panels they are on sale on ebay from a store called itssoldhere.com
Maybe someone damaged their 06 interior rear cargo area panels and want to find a replacement cheaper then $120 or so for each panel, or maybe there is some 07 owners who actually might prefer the leather interior matched 06 cargo cover over the non matching black canvas 07 cover and need the 06 rear interior panels to accomodate it.
all i know is i hope i get something for them to offset what i ended up having to spend and i can't believe one of the family members that works at the dealership just laughed about it instead of offering anything. now i have to hope they take it into consideration on future service.
all they offered was to cover the cost of it, if i traded it for the 07 special edition. which was like duh of course if i was going to get the 07 i wouldn't even have got the retractable cargo cover in the 06 just to trade it into them.
I just hope when i go to resell, the retractable cargo cover adds to the value though i doubt it will add $700 to what I ultimately get for it.
as for the 08 it wasn't as bad as i thought and they did manage to keep some of the nice styling poins of the tribeca but the front end is borin gand no mesh grille option and the back end looks more standard mid size suv while the 06/07 looks way more alfa romeo and unique.
i didn'tn hate the 08 but nothing i really loved about it and they didn' tseem to have added any new features from the 07 besides the engine increase which will forever bothe rme that my tribeca experience when all said and done will have been with the slower engine but as i said i dont see myself sticking with tribeca or subaru. it was fun and i'll enjoy the vehicle awhile longer but then MDX here i come.