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Subaru B9 Tribeca (B9X)

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Comments

  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    this Subaru will have some very nice surprises.

    Subaru knows what they're up against. We're only seeing little glimpses here and there, and doing a ton of speculating. I bet Patti's right in that we will be pleasantly surprised.

    Bob
  • dcm61dcm61 Posts: 1,564
    What's up with the normal size moonroof????

    It better be Suba-sized on the production version. :-)

    DaveM
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    "Before we get to far with deciding if it will be a let down, let's see what is in store! I sincerely hope you are pleasantly surprised."

    Yes Patti you are correct! At this stage everything is speculative! I hope I will be pleasantly surprised.

    Derek
  • Moonroof needs to be regular size for DVD option, of which I heard will be a 9 inch screen. Biggest in the idustry..like the Odyssey. Also as far as the Nav working, it's being bought from someone else I'm sure, so there should be no problems.
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    reminds me a lot of Alfa Romeo, the 164, perhaps... I just dont remember a lot about those vehicles.

    I think someone already pointed out the Alfa connection... I definitely agree!

    Very nice; I think it will be a point of differentiation.

    ~alpha
  • hypovhypov Posts: 3,068
    moonroof will be standard on all models

    That would be a bummer :(

    So, will there be non-moonroof option?

    -Dave
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Don't know Dave. Everything is still all rumors.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I hope the moonroof and leather are standard for the $33k expected price.

    That's because they could later come out with the Sport model and delete those to get the price to $29,999. Maybe I'm too optimistic.

    Can a hybrid tow? Well, I think current ones are setup for light duty to get peak efficiency, so not a Prius.

    But already we see the Accord hybrid tuned for performance, it's 1/2 second quicker to 60mph than the V6 model.

    So I'm sure they could tune a hybrid to tow, if that's the goal.

    2.5T in the base Sport model? I don't think so. If you look now, the Outback LL Bean actually sells for less than the Outback XT Limited. So the H6 is actually cheaper.

    Although they did set the MSRP lower for the 2.5T. I wonder if it's cheaper to build, though.

    I'd be more than happy with a 2.5T Sport model with cloth and no moonroof as long as the price was right.

    RX has cloth standard, eh? Guess I've never seen one. And doesn't the ML come with leatherette, or is it really cloth?

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Can a hybrid tow?

    That could be a problem... The Escape hybrid can only tow 1000, while the regular Escape can tow up to 3500.

    If the B9X does come in a hybrid version, I hope that it can match or better the non-hybrid versions, and not follow the Ford Escape hybrid, by down-rating the the towing. That would be a BIG mistake IMO.

    Anyone know what the Highlander/RX400h are rated to tow? That, I think, would be a good guide as to what a B9Xh might be able to tow.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    found over at nabisco.

    ok,I have to be very carefull with this but I feel its my duty to calm everyone down about about the pricing on this car.I have it from very good sources that this cars price will range from $32-38k denpding on trim level.There are going to be some very surprising things different between the cars that are 32k and the ones that are 38k though.......wish I could say more but some of you may remember all the trouble I had with giving out too much info about the new Legacy and Outback,so I am walking on eggshells a bit with what I know...

    Bob
  • bsvollerbsvoller Posts: 528
    Hmmm. Well, I'm probably overstepping my knowledge base (again), but it seems to me that hybrids have some very fundamental problems with extended high output as required for towing heavy loads. I don't think that the hybrid Escape was down-rated "just because" - I think it's fundamentally not as capable.

    I'm just looking at this from a "first principle" analysis point of view. Roughly half of the output is delivered by the electric motor and half from a down-sized gasoline engine, give or take.

    What do you do when you're towing a heavy load across the country after you've run the battery down ? I don't see how the down-sized gasoline engine can possibly handle a heavy load by itself, certainly not in a comparable manner to the non-hybrid version with its much larger displacement.

    Am I missing something here ? I don't think it's just "tuning". I think that the output available from the gasoline engine places some upper limit on the towing capacity, practically speaking, even if the electric side is available to help with "surge" demands.

    -brianV
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    more from deep throat:

    ok,I can tell you that only engine available will the 250hp 3 liter and all models will come with VDC std.......

    and...

    lets put it this way,don't "assume" that every version will have 7 passenger seating....

    Could there be a B9X Wagonaire/XUV in the works?

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Could there be a B9X Wagonaire/XUV in the works?

    I just got a big "Nope...." on that. Soooooo, I guess I guess that means a 5-passenger version, sans 3rd-row seating, is probably in the works too. Most likely the $32K model, I bet.

    If that's true, that's good. I think there are a lot of people who would be interested in this vehicle, who don't want or need 7 passenger seating; my next door neighbor for one—and me for another.

    Bob
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    a 5-passenger model will indeed be the base model.

    Bob
  • that this is going to be the ideal platform for the next gen Baja.

    John
  • Hey Crew!
        Ive been offline for several months to deal with some projects at work and, along the way, put several thousand miles on my 04 FXT..what a great car..for me. As for other people:
         Recent election results notwithstanding, nobody who makes AWD vehicles is confused about the waiting lists to get a small-to-mid-sized Ford, Lexus or Toyota SUV hybrid..the demand is tremendous! Nissan and Daimler Chrysler went the opposite direction with big vehicles and bigger powerplants ....and there are an awful lot of FX's, Muranos, Liberty's and Pacifica's marked way down and gathering dust on dealers lots. I drove past DC's staging lot along I-75 in the north end of Toledo, OH a few weeks ago...there were new Liberty's and Grand Cherokees as far as the eye could see. Even here in Subaru heaven (Asheville, NC), I am one of only three FXT drivers I am aware of, compared to the hundreds of NA Foresters I see every week. Likewise, 05 NA OB's are selling like hotcakes here...but Ive yet to see an OB FXT or Legacy GT on the road. There is limited attraction, for most folks, to a car that gets poorer MPG using gas that cost 10% more than the exact same car that lacks only the inability to blow past 99% of the other cars on the road...a feature my wife has yet to find useful even though she sneaks off with the FXT every chance she gets. The attraction is the amazing utility and drivability of the Forester at a great price, features that have us thinking of another Forester if the new seven seater is less than amazing.
       If they are smart, and, with exception of the proposed name(B9X? not even on a dare!)I believe they have been smart thus far, Subaru will not compete with the bigger-is-better 7 seaters, and will, instead, offer a 5 or 7 seat vehicle that competes , in terms of utility, directly with the Highlander but leverages Subaru's cache as a sportier AWD marque than the bland Camry-cousin.
       I look for the new 7 seater to offer added-value safety features like stability control as a standard feature on all trim levels in addition to side curtain airbags that already have caught the attention of buyers who never thought they would consider a Subaru. Look for a truly comfortable cabin with room for 3 "American" adults in the second row, maybe a quad-bucket option, and disappearing third row seats designed mostly for small people...for families who want the flexibility of taking an extra child or two to the beach or the ballgame on occasion, roomy cargo area the rest of the time. Let's be serious: families with 6 or 7 people in the car most of the time get a mini-van or a Brute-Ute like a Suburban.
       I hope the sketches are misleading and that the rear end will be boxier and have more of a greenhouse than the sketches thus far, thereby retaining the great visibility and true cargo-carrying ability of the Forester. Only a die hard Pacifica, Murano or FX devotee won't admit the visibility problems and cargo limitations in those designs. I expect a larger grille opening than the sketches.
       I look for a 3.0 boxer with , with VVT and tuned specifically for this vehicle, which I hope will come in just under 4000 lbs. A 6 speed auto , no manual option: 3500 pound towing capacity....a pop up camper or a bass boat. The market-driven engine option for this segment is a hybrid powerplant, not a 375HP 3.0 turbo. Those folks can buy a WRX STi if they want to go really fast or a Nissan Titan if they want to tow a 6-horse trailer.
       I look for Nav, moonroof, premium audio and leather as option-only, probably in combo packages like the current Subaru vehicles.
        As alluded to above, "B9X" is the only name that could possibly be worse than "Tribeca". I would bet the farm that name is a "rabbit" for speculators to chase while SoA does secret market research on other possibilities as they get closer to a "final" production prototype..i.e., a name to match the car. I expect a different name in Detroit, one that has a definite sport-outdoors connotation, and I wouldn't exclude a not-so-subtle L.L. Bean tie-in.

    Based on my election selections, at most one of my predictions is correct! ;_)

    Mark
  • subaru_teamsubaru_team Posts: 1,676
    While I'm not saying that the post is incorrect or anything - I do know that firm numbers are no where close to being locked in. Here's why - FHI tells us what we should sell it for, SOA says what we can sell it for, FHI tells us that we must sell it for such and such and we say we can only sell it for so and so. Clear as mud, right? Anyway, we're still at the FHI says point (the first go-round), so it's all still conjecture. Glad I could clear that up!

    Patti
  • alpha01alpha01 Posts: 4,747
    "If they are smart, and, with exception of the proposed name(B9X? not even on a dare!)"

    Ha! Thats great.

    Except... the Infiniti really isnt having hard time selling the FX (sales up 12% this year), nor is the Murano doing poorly (up 5%) this year.

    (Side note: It seems anything coming out of Nissan's Canton, MS plant however, has bombed in the latest round of Consumer Reports surveys- the Armada and Quest have both posted Much Worse than Average rankings).

    ~alpha
  • The 3.0L Will be the BASE powerplant for this Vehicle... however SoA already has H-6 Turbo powerplant prototype already in the testing stages.... It maybe end up being a 3.6L But there will be another powerplant available remember this just isn't the new Subaru SUV it's the new SAAB SUV and they will need a Model Capable of Going against the AMG ML55, X5, Porsche and so and so on... I dont think subaru is going to play it super safe this time around.. I think they are going for it.. I mean this Generation Legacy and Outback are a Quantum Leap for Subaru... So I dont see them dabbing their toe in the water with B9X. I also agree that this probably will not be the name for the Subaru.. but I could see the new SAAB Being Called the B9X or something to that degree...

    Well I hope this gave some people pause

    Thanks
    LVJ II
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    5 pax? Wow, we had no idea!

    If so the lineup could look like this:

    $32k for base 5 seater
    $33k for base 7 seater
    $35k for 5 seater Ltd (leather/moonroof)
    $36k for 7 seater Ltd (leather/moonroof)
    $38k for 7 seater Ltd with Nav

    That would mesh well with the current lineup. The VDC costs $33,495, but it has the Ltd equipment, so the B9X equivalent would cost about $1500 more.

    Sounds reasonable.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I'm thinking more about this, and if the middle row is wide enough and truly comfortable for even the middle passenger, then it could become very popular.

    That might mean the 3rd row is more like the Highlander and less like the Pilot, though, i.e. only for little kids.

    I hope the center console is wide enough for two elbows to rest there, and maybe to rest a portable DVD or laptop there, for those of us that can't afford the $38k model.

    -juice
  • 4WD did not arrive until 1974 as 1975 model. SW only sedan and coupe not avail with 4wd until 1984 model year.
  • luvrofsubie wrote:
    4WD did not arrive until 1974 as 1975 model.
    You are describing when SOA's Harvey Lamm finally got around to importing the Leone 4WD wagon into the US. I was describing when the Leone wagon (introduced with with FHI's first 4WD system) was first sold (in Japan).
  • jeffmcjeffmc Posts: 1,742
    Doh! The Subaru press release clearly says "available" 7-passenger seating, so I think we can confirm that 5-passenger will be standard on the base model.
    I wonder what Subaru will do with the extra space in the 5-passenger model's cargo area where the rear seats would fold down (supposedly folding flat into the floor).
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Good catch! :)

    Yes, that word "available" pretty much confirms that 7-passenger seating will not be for all models.

    Bob
  • I stand corrected.. I guess it should have been obvious considering the fact that everyone else gets the new model a year before the US market does. Thanks for the lesson! :)
  • eps105eps105 Posts: 216
    I was at my local dealer today getting some work done and I started chatting about the B9X with the salesperson I've been dealing with for a few years.

    While he hasn't seen it himself, he seemed to be pretty well versed on many details through discussions with the owner of the dealership, who supposedly knows more about it.

    He stated the certainty that there will be 5 and 7 passenger versions. (Note, a previous poster theorized that if the 3rd row is optional, it will likely be for kids only like to Highlander, however we should all note that the Volvo XC-90's third row is optional yet has a decent sized third row when the 2nd row seats are moved a few notches forward.)

    He said that all versions will have at least 6, maybe 8 airbags standard, including side curtains.

    He didn't have too many other details to dispel (at least that he told me), but he exuded an extremely high level of confidence that Subaru had a winner and had done their homework. He said this in response to my rhetorical question as to how well Subaru will compete with the Pilot and XC90 in terms of price, performance, and content.

    When I complained that it was only a 3 liter engine, he said something about there being several versions being planned, but he wouldn't tell me anything further. He defended that the performance of the 3 liter should be competitive based on the HP and torque ratings. I hope he's right.

    Granted, he is a salesperson, but I sensed a genuine honesty that he is excited for Subaru to get this product and that they are going to sell like hotcakes.

    Usually, you hear about dealerships being mad at the manufacturers for not launching competitive models consumers want, so to hear a dealer say that it is going to be awesome gives me more confidence in Subaru. At this point, I think we need to wait and see the real specs rather than sit here for weeks on end guessing if Subaru is going to deliver. Although it sure is fun to speculate!

    We shall see.... my $.02.

    Elliot
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I agree, Bob, I certainly don't recognize that hatch from any current model.

    Good to hear the dealers are enthusiastic, they really know what sells.

    -juice
  • ozman62ozman62 Posts: 229
    mean that no manual transmission version will be offered? I don't think there's any other VDC/Manual model.
    Owen
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The manual can come later, along with a price $1200 lower hopefully!

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    or at least what we think we know...

    • 3.0 H-6. Not sure about anything else pertaining this engine. Turbo? Hybrid-assist? Re-tuned for more torque? Something else?

    • VDC on all models is rumored. Does that mean only automatics, or has Subaru incorporated a VDC with a manual too? Most likely it also means VDT and a 45/55 front-to-rear power split, which is good.

    • Moonroof on all models is rumored, which is good IMO.

    • 5 and 7 passenger seating. I think having this choice is good.

    • NAV and rear DVD is a given, at least on some models, if even only as an option. One image of the test mule showed the right front passenger door open with something covering the center stack of th dash, which suggests to me that a NAV unit was on that model, and that they were trying to hide it from the spy camera.

    • No word on on transmissions whatsoever. Does this mean no surprises here, or really big surprises here?

    • Towing? One image showed what appears to be a small Class II hitch receiver. I hope that's standard, and that a full Class III option will be available. I think a lot will depend on the engine choice(s) available.

    • 18" wheels are rumored, and the images of the test mule seem to confirm that.

    • Pricing from $32K – $38K.

    • Styling, from what we can see, appears to combine elements from both the R1E and B9SC.

    • The B9SC hybrid also had a height-adjustable suspension. Will that make it into the the B9X?

    Did I miss anything?

    Bob
  • with this vehicle
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Only if it's priced right. :)

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It's Variable Torque Distribution, VTD.

    Add to your list 250hp, I think that was mentioned specifically for the 3.0l H6. My guess is it won't be retuned at all, at least not from the get-go. This engine was making 212hp back in March of this year.

    I definitely think it'll be auto-only for now at least.

    And yes, it's basically everything I want in a vehicle, very "complete", if you will. Think back to a few years back and the only wish it might not meet is the 20 mpg city.

    And before Colin beats me over the head with his oil barrel, I think I can live it if it's near best-in-class for fuel efficiency. :P

    Price is key, though. I paid $11k for my first new car, $19k for my 2nd, and now...$32k? Without DVD or Nav or leather?

    Plus we are indeed house poor. That 2nd mortgage payment is felt, trust me. What I might do is re-finance the house in a year or two and combine the two loans into one.

    That would free us up for a B9X.

    Finally, I don't necessarily want a v1.0, for lots of reasons, not just the early bugs but also the fact that discounts only set in later, at least a year after launch.

    2005 Legacys are now selling for $400 under invoice, right? Already that's a grand or two less then people paid in March. So it doesn't take long for discounts to set in even on a nice vehicle, the market is just that competitive.

    So if $32k is the starting price, invoice is usually 10% less, or about $28,800, $400 under would put it at $28,400.

    I think I could talk the boss into that. Maybe even a grand more with a DVD.

    -juice
  • to a Chevy Equinox this morning, first time I had seen one. It is about 4" bigger than my Forester all the way around. AWD, independent rear suspension, etc. The first thing that came to my mind was: that is how the B9X is going to be. Anyone know if the Equinox will be a direct competitor?

    John
  • eps105eps105 Posts: 216
    I was surprised to read that the Equinox is actually similar in length to a Honda Pilot. It is deceptively large. However, engineers chose to make the Equinox a very, very roomy 5 passenger SUV rather than try to squeeze in a 3rd row.

    Unfortunately (well, fortunately for Subaru), Chevy fell short with the Equinox, as it has been getting generally low ratings due to its terrible electric steering, poor build quality, and unrefined Chinese-made engine.

    In the end, it will be a good notch or two below the B9X and I do not see the two competing for the same type of customers. I.E., If I only cared about size and price and not performance and refinement, I might be driving, say, a Kia Sportage, instead of a Forester. They aren't even comparable! (Incidentally, the Sportage is being resurrected with a twin to the new car-based Hyundai Tuscan, so perhaps the Forester will have some increasing competition soon... but I digress.)

    Elliot
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    The steering is numb, indeed, and they gave it the antique 3.4l engine from the Aztec, instead of the more modern 3500 from the Malibu.

    But it's light duty, and shares a platform with the Vue. Space efficiency is sort of poor, so it's kind of a small mid-size. I think a CR-V has more room.

    I think it's handsome outside, but mostly my feelings for the Nox are "close but no cigar".

    I don't see it competing with the B9X at all, though. The Nox is basic and cheap, while the Subie ought to be upscale and well equipped, as well as pricier. B9X will overlap with the TrailBlazer in terms of price (but that's a truck).

    So I don't think Chevy makes anything that'll compete with the B9X, it's certainly not where Subaru wants to be. A Buick Rendezvous might, indirectly.

    -juice
  • jeffmcjeffmc Posts: 1,742
    I agree w/juice... IMHO Chev's most handsome vehicle.

    Pretty wimpy engine for such a heavy vehicle, though: 185hp for 3776lbs curb (5070lbs gross!). Only about 1200 lbs towing, if I remember correctly.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Already?!

    -juice
  • bluesubiebluesubie Posts: 3,497
    That looks like it belongs to the editor of subiesport magazine. He uses the screen name ricochet and the publishing company is Midnight Cafe.

    -Dennis
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Hey Bob - someone's trying to get invited to NAIAS.

    Sorry for the inside joke, fellas. ;-)

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    http://www.autocarmagazine.com/news_article.asp?na_id=212253

    Sliding doors?

    Two engines, one being a twin turbo?

    The Brits are great for throwing new twists on any given subject. Sometimes they're right, sometimes they're not.

    Bob
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Note: I don't really consider that report reliable, but let's have fun speculating anyway.

    new 2.5-litre unit is also planned

    For europe only? Turbo? Or an economy model for their gas prices? I'd love to see a lower-priced 2.5T slot in below the $32 grand H6 base.

    new range of flat-four diesel engines

    With help from Isuzu and Posche. Will we see these? US gets low-sulfur diesel fuels starting in 2007 I believe. Diesels options are popping up already. Touareg has a V6 diesel in Europe now, would the B9X get one to compete in that arena?

    six-speed manual gearbox as standard

    On the next Impreza? Could be a good way to boost mileage.

    -juice
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    While convenient, I think this would absolutely *kill* the B9X's chances in the US market.

    It would be labeled a minivan immediately, and it simply could not compete on price in that arena, with even the better vans starting around $25k.

    I would not mind sliding doors personally, but I think this would be a huge mistake in terms of marketing it as an SUV, which lets you charge more for it.

    -juice
  • rshollandrsholland Posts: 19,788
    Well, that engine has been rumored for the Legacy, Outback, Impreza and Forester; so that's no surprise. It may be make it into the B9X for those sold in Europe, if it's ever marketed there.

    As to sliding doors? I don't recall seeing any indication of that on the test mule photos we've seen. Now what if the test mule images were of the 5-passenger model? Could the 7-passenger model have sliding doors? I kinda doubt it.

    Bob
  • rangnerrangner Posts: 336
    Flat Diesel Engines

    I'd be the first to plunk my deposit down. But even if it's only for europe I'll just have to find someway to import it. I'll drop one in a 1990's Vanagon for the perfect family cruiser. ;)

    Eric
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I think we would have seen door tracks in the sketch and spy pics.

    Sliding doors are extremely unlikely. Though I don't think we saw a pic with the rear door open, so you never know.

    New 2.5l with AVCS and 180hp would be sweet.

    -juice
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