Any downside to buying a hybrid?

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Comments

  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    Hello Kdhspyder:
    "some get 45 mpg and some can even get 50 mpg with the right driver and with the right driving circumstances"

    Sorry, you're providing more bad hybrid information.
    Most people report mid to upper 40's in their hybrid cars while some drivers get mid-upper 50's to upper 60's MPG.
    http://home.alltel.net/stevedez_00/gas.jpg
    66.6MPG displayed, 68MPG by calculated miles/gallons used and 932 miles to a single tank. All summer did mid-high 60's calculated.

    That was in mid 90's temperatures and around 95-100% humidity.

    That was with an HCH CVT. MT can do better.

    Prius can do a little better than that, and Insight is good well past 100MPG tanks, with the right driver under normal conditions.
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    they don't have any prius in stock but plenty of camrys. No sale today, no commission this month, it's pretty simple
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    while people who are baggering the prius getting lower mpg in the winter, doesn't that happen to ALL cars? My corolla gets mid to high 30's in the summer and drop to mid 20's in the winter, and I've got long, cold winters in NE. :confuse:
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    "...the CRV is much more refined. Is yours a 5sp or auto?"

    Auto, though I think the MT is a 4 speed; the 2005 and later CR-V is a 5 speed auto.

    My wife doesn't drive a stick, and anyway there are two reasons I wouldn't have bought one.

    1. MT is rare - hard to find.
    2. MT gets worse MPG than auto.
  • stevedebistevedebi LAMember Posts: 4,098
    "while people who are baggering the prius getting lower mpg in the winter, doesn't that happen to ALL cars? My corolla gets mid to high 30's in the summer and drop to mid 20's in the winter, and I've got long, cold winters in NE"

    Here in SOCAL we get a "winter blend" gas, and the MPG goes down, but not by much for me - about .5 MPG.

    Of course, I'm only getting 22 MPG (city) to begin with...
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Getting low MPG in cold weather is not a problem with hybrid technology, per se. If it was, there would be ZERO drivers achieving EPA numbers in the winter months, and that is not the case.

    There are many reasons for cars not achieving max MPG in the colder months...

    Car engines must warm up to a certain internal operating temperature before they most efficiently use the fuel. Winter months and colder temps make that transition from cold start to most efficient take a little longer.

    Also: new cars go through what is called a "break-in period" where the metal engine parts are still grinding against each other more rigidly, creating more friction, which also reduces efficiency. Over time, the "extra metal" shaves off and gets lubricated better (expecially if you use Synthetic Oil) and the friction is reduced, which affect MPG numbers.

    Winter formula fuels used in most states hold less energy and this also hurts MPG.

    Generally speaking, colder weather in many areas means "rain, snow, or slush or ice" on the roads - these things add additional resistance which the tires must push out of the way to contact the road, so they hurt MPG in that way. As someone pointed out to me, "Actually driving in snow kills your mpg. You're crawling and losing traction because the wheels have to spin more."

    Tire pressures also are lowered by the cold weather too. Most people fail to properly inflate their tires all year, but ESPECIALLY in the winter when it is cold and you might have dirty tires and you just dont want to deal with spending time in the cold airing up a dirty tire. Low tire inflation can cause blowouts and adds quite a bit of rolling resistance, which forces the engine to work harder to "push" the car forward, thus using more fuel.

    Additional idling uses more fuel and hurts overall MPG, and many people in cold climes by habit or necessity are warming their cars up in the morning. That is good practice to stay warm, but BAD for MPG numbers. While idling in your garage or driveway or carport, it is getting 0 miles to the gallon !! :D

    People who use the defroster in a Hybrid are many times using the A/C compressor to help reduce the humidity in the car and clear the fog. That is a MPG killer too. The compressor can be turned off, but usually by default it comes on.

    See this science page for more explanation:

    http://tinyurl.com/3s7lo
  • nwngnwng Member Posts: 663
    that's socal, I always wonder how you folks there get good mileage. When I visit my cousin who lives in socal, we're either crawling at 5-7 mph on the freeway or doing 95 mph and yet plenty of people passed us

    Actually driving in snow kills your mpg. You're crawling and loosing traction(wheels have to spin more)
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    They hardly make any MTs that are not 5 or 6 speed now.

    The CR-V is 5-speed Manual http://www.edmunds.com/new/2006/honda/crv/100650235/researchlanding.html
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    they don't have any prius in stock but plenty of camrys. No sale today, no commission this month, it's pretty simple

    This is precisely the position of most sales people since they have to pay bills next month so they are looking for an immediate sale this month..not in 3-4 months. In addition sales people are not different than many here as well. The technology is threatening to some and its more complicated to explain than a normal ICE vehicle. It's one reason why I emphasize Prius sales to the point where others even give me their prospects.. I'm not as concerned with immediate compensation as I am the long term results. In addition the hybrids appeal to me for the technology and the benefits to the environment.
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Easy brother,
    That wasnt my info... that was a quote from 'rroyce' that's why I highlighted it.
    Previously I had taken exception to several off handed comments he shot out.

    My statement to him was that hybrid drivers are the most authoritative source on real world mileage numbers. Most of my customers report consistently in the 48-51 mpg range combined. Yours are very good to be sure.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    Why on earth would you even waste a saleman's time if you have no intention of buying?

    You have never test driven a car just for the fun of it? In Hawaii I was checking to see if they would rent one while I was there. I wanted to see for myself if they are a nice car. I would never buy a vehicle I had not test driven.
  • katzjamrkatzjamr Member Posts: 146
    That navigator tax credit is only if the truck is used 100% for business use.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I've never test driven a car without the express interest in buying it. Maybe you should go into the Ferarri showroom and ask them if you can take a test drive. A little more exciting than a Prius.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    go into the Ferarri showroom and ask them if you can take a test drive

    As a matter of fact I test drove both a 911S and a Carrera several years ago. At the time I could not afford either one. Just wanted one. Now when it would be nothing to buy one I am not interested. So what is your point? If I test drive a car and someone asks my opinion, I have a basis for that opinion. If you remember earlier posts I test drove the Prius Classic twice and would have bought it for my now ex-wife if she had liked it. She liked her 10 year old Camry better. You should go test drive a few more cars, maybe the HAH or HCH. You may like them better than the Prius. There is no obligation to take a test drive. Both GM & Mercedes have meets for people to test drive all their vehicles. I have gone to a couple. Lines were long on the high powered stuff.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Saw a Prius rear ended last night. Well, I mean I saw the result still there on roadside. A** end was accordioned up pretty good, front end undamaged. Obviously was hit in the rear pretty hard. Happened on hwy 17 in Los Gatos, Ca. Twisty, turny, hilly road. 2 lanes of fast moving traffic with no or almost no breakdown lane. Looked like it happened on a blind curve.

    Now, I wonder why? Could this Prius have stalled and the driver was unable to keep going fast enuf to get out of the way? Or perhaps has the bad brakelight switch?

    I know, I'm a troll here, but these are serious questions. I can tell you, if your engine dies on this road, you could be in deep doodoo.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I just happened to be driving home last week and I saw a navigator turned over. No one even bothered to stop.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    No interest in those cars. You must have a lot of spare time on your hands. If I want to drive a Porsche, I'll just ask my cousin for his keys. Everyone one of my friends have expensive cars except me. Not my thing.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,400
    Time to drop the feud and stick to the topics folks.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Jewel:

    First you said SAW A PRIUS REAR ENDED....Then it was you saw the result...The car has plenty of pop so it wasn't that it couldn't go fast enough...

    Perhaps a German car had another mechanical failure and it's breaks didn't work...Based on all the Reliability evidence that would be the MOST LIKELY way the accident happened.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    I know what you mean Falcone ...I see them all the time...laying on the side of road like a big fat turtle on it's back....

    SAD...and they cost so much money...
  • shiposhipo Member Posts: 9,148
    Hmmm, I think I'll take that as my queue to jump in here and maybe even help get this discussion back on topic. ;-)

    My current situation finds me with a new contract that requires me to average well over 100 miles per day (99% of which is with the Cruise Control set north of 75 mph). I recently turned in my beloved 530i at lease end, and I've since been driving our spare car (a 1998 Dodge Grand Caravan 3.8). That means that I'm faced with something of a dilemma, 1) do I buy a new car to replace the 530i and pile on an easy 100,000 miles in less than four years, or 2) do I just keep the GC and milk it for as long as it will run.

    In favor of the new car, are several points:
    1) I'd get one that gets significantly better fuel economy than the 3.8 liter GC, so there could be some significant fuel cost savings
    2) Theoretical better reliability on a new car versus a car with 100K on the clock (I say theoretical because this thing has only cost me $83 in unscheduled maintenance since new)
    3) I want one
    4) There is nothing so decidedly uncool as commuting in a GC (maybe that's the same as #3)

    In favor of just driving the GC into the dirt:
    1) I can buy LOTS of gas for the price difference between selling the GC and any decent new car
    2) Would a new car really be as reliable as my current ride? Statistically, probably yes. So far at least, not a chance.

    So, with that said, assuming I ultimately decide to trade the old girl in on a newer model, what should I get? I know that posting that rhetorical question around here will yield one primary response: Prius.

    That brings me to the point of this post. It is my understanding that the Prius is not what one would consider a sporting car (neither is a GC for that matter), and only offers mediocre acceleration, braking and handling capabilities at best. So, the next question that I must grapple with is, "Would I be willing to sacrifice performance to save $1,000 per year in fuel related expenses (over something like an Audi A3)?" To me at least, performance issue is enough of a "downside" to make me think long and hard before I opt for a Prius.

    Best Regards,
    Shipo
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Good post and good questions. I sell Prius' and I still drive my 2000 Camry for the same reason you do the GC. However I will likely step up and get one this year coming ( or a Hybrid Camry ) for a lot of reasons:
    A) Threat of $3/gal X 45000 m/yr ( even with my Camry at 31 mpg every day )
    B) The Prius' ARE cool and you will be noticed.
    C) There is no cleaner vehicle for the environment on the road at the moment
    D) Prius toys ;)
    E) It has better accleration than my 2000 Camry
    F) I choose to use as little fuel as possible and send as little money to the MidEast as I possibly can.
    G) Tax credit :D
    H) VSC/TRAC, ABS w/BA, S+C A/B

    To answer your concerns: It's quick but no rocket by any means; it's a midsized family sedan meant for a normal amount of comfort ( like your GC ) not especially for high performance handling; I've never noticed the braking to be questionable it's just different ( existing owners can reply better on this over a longer time frame ).
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    No one buys a Prius for its "sporting characteristics". The A3 is an interesting comparison as I really like that car. A decked out A3 with similar equipment as in the Prius will cost a nice penny. One other thing, the Prius did BETTER than the A3 in crash tests conducted in Europe. That's important to me. Lastly, reliability. I've owned a couple of Audis and one VW. Fun to drive/NOT reliable.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Nice post but (B) is not a good selling point (at least for me).
  • aaron_taaron_t Member Posts: 301
    How much is your GC worth to sell/trade? It may be worth keeping for insurance discounts, backup vehicle, or to take some of the miles for bad weather (2 day/wk?). I'd look into a Miata, or other pure fun car that gets good fuel mileage, a joy to drive (not sure about highway manors especially compared to a minivan) and keep the GC. Less depreciation on the new car if you keep the mileage closer to 15k/yr. Dunno your budget, but maybe a used C5 6-speed that gets 28mpg @ 80mph.

    My wife had our first child and I get to commute in the minivan 70-85miles a day depending on school. I've had sporty cars in the past (SVT Contour, IS300), but love the smooth ride on Detroit's crappy roads of the minivan, and the seats rock! My wife said "never' to a minivan before this kid, but now she realizes its conveniences and purpose. My goal is to have a minivan for family/3rd vehicle an fun car for daily nice weather driving.
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Member Posts: 17,916
    The technology is threatening to some

    While some may be threaten by the technology I think that the technology has its downsides that turn many people off of hybrids. First off the technology is relatively new and is very much unproven in long term real world experience (how many hybrids are out there with 100k+ miles?). Secondly the technology makes things more complicated and as you do that it makes things more susceptible to breakdowns and higher repair bills. Those are real world concerns that many have.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Member Posts: 17,916
    Actually the most likely way the accident happened was that the one that hit the Prius was tailgating and didn't have time to stop when the Prius hit the breaks. No mechanical failures just lousy driving.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Member Posts: 17,916
    I will presume that the GC is paid off, if so you are driving the best kind of car to drive - one that runs and is paid for. If thats the case my advice would be to continue to drive the CG and take at least a portion of what you would be making in car payments into some type of safe investment (presuming you finance the car), or put the cash into a CD (if you would pay cash). Then drive the GC until it starts giving you trouble.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The technology has been proven in testing, otherwise the product would not be brought to market. Every car today is road tested to simulate over 100,000 miles of driving. With a Toyota product and a 94% satisfaction rating, along with a generous warranty, I am not the least bit concerned. Apparently many people aren't as there is a 3 month backlog WITH gas prices going down. Gotta love it!!

    9 weeks to go!!!
  • pjyoungpjyoung Member Posts: 885
    Now, I wonder why? Could this Prius have stalled and the driver was unable to keep going fast enuf to get out of the way? Or perhaps has the bad brakelight switch? On the other hand, he might have had to slow down for a normally aspirated vehicle that had stalled. Or perhaps the driver could have been a bonehead and slowed down to show somebody a sight. Or maybe there was an SUV on two wheels getting ready to roll over on the curve and he had to slow down for it. Grand assumptions, but what happens if your Lincoln burps and stalls on the road...you're in as much doo doo it would seem.
  • pjyoungpjyoung Member Posts: 885
    Actually the most likely way the accident happened was that the one that hit the Prius was tailgating and didn't have time to stop when the Prius hit the breaks. No mechanical failures just lousy driving.

    Good point. The brakes in the Prius are way better than the other cars I've driven. I have to be careful driving different cars because the brakes don't seem to grab near as well as they do in my Prius. Side note though...it accordianed up pretty good, according to our navigator pilot...that's pretty much what it was designed to to. Also..passenger compartment wasn't compromised....again, just as it was supposed to do. Shoot....those sound like selling points.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I've actually seen pictures of Prius crash tests conducted by NON US agencies. The car does incredibly well. I would venture to say the Navigator pilot would hope he had a Prius if he encountered a situation like that. Tailgating causes most accidents I see on my way to work everyday.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Actually, I'm more curious about the battery integrity in the rear-end collision witnessed than any grand theorizing about the cause of the accident. Any indication of battery leakage and/or response crews having to take any additional precautions?
  • pjyoungpjyoung Member Posts: 885
    Actually, I'm more curious about the battery integrity in the rear-end collision witnessed than any grand theorizing about the cause of the accident. Any indication of battery leakage and/or response crews having to take any additional precautions?

    Considering the batteries are under the rear seat in the passenger compartment, I would imagine that there was no leakage. Had it done that, given the propensity in most anti-hybrid articles these days, I am sure it would have been a front page story.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The battery is almost placed in the center of the car. I'd be more concerned with a gasoline explosion than battery issues.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Bladder-type gas tanks like the Prius has are FAR less susceptible to puncture explosions like a metal tank. So it would be highly unlikely a Prius would have a gas tank explosion in a rear impact crash.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Actually, it's very rear that you hear of gas tanks exploding these days. Last I heard were the Corwn Vics, but there is a retro fit for them.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Thanks. I don't know why I thought the batteries where under the floor in the cargo area; apparently that's where the fuel tank resides instead. Actually, it makes sense to locate the batteries under the rear-seat; helps to keep the CG low and a bit further forward. Better handling that way.....:P
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Yup...that's where they are. It weighs about 100 lbs. I am not sure where they're placed in the other hybrids. If someone has that information, please post it. And yes Rorr.... it does help the CG.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    I went by too fast to see anything like that. Again, all I saw was the accordioned rear end and that the front end had not hit anything. I doubt this was caused by tailgating because then vehicle speeds would have been matched and the trailing vehicle would have been too close to cause this much damage without pushing the Prius into another vehicle and that obviously did not happen. No, it looked like the Prius got hit by something travelling much faster than it. I'm familiar with this type of hit cause I had the same thing happen to me on the same road 3 months ago. No, sorry to disappoint but my Lincoln did not stall or flip, rather I was stopped in traffic and this idiot came flying up behind and apparently thought he could levitate or something - he hit his BRAKES about 20 feet behind me and was probably still going 30mph when he hit me. My Lincoln LS suffered almost $4000 in damage. His Jeep Liberty looked in better shape mostly cause his bumper hit my trunk.
    This could be exactly what happened to the Prius. I dunno. I just immediately thought of the stalling issue cause I've been reading so much about it lately. I read this entire board plus most of the software problems board in the last few days. Anyone considering a Prius should do the same.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Just to report my experiences: I have NEVER seen a Navigator on it's side, back or anything but it's wheels.

    What I have seen probably a dozen, no exaggeration, are Toyota Previas, the model before the Sienna, either flipped or on their sides. Not making this up. YMMV.
  • Kirstie_HKirstie_H EdmundsAdministrator Posts: 11,132
    OK, but we're now not talking about hybrids - let's try to re-focus, please.

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  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    "C) There is no cleaner vehicle for the environment on the road at the moment "

    We all commend Toyota for producing a clean vehicle. However, as I said I've read 2 of these toyota boards this week and found 2 instances of folks with Priuses who needed catalytic converters replaced. The average cost of the 2 was roughly $2500 - just for the cat. At that price, both owners said they would probably NOT replace their converters.

    My point obviously is to keep the clean exhaust, you need a cat. Toyota is ripping the customer off charging $2500 for a new cat converter. I doubt anyone can argue with this...
  • pjyoungpjyoung Member Posts: 885
    I just immediately thought of the stalling issue cause I've been reading so much about it lately. I read this entire board plus most of the software problems board in the last few days. Anyone considering a Prius should do the same.

    Hmmm...I read this too (concerning the 75,000 US Prius' that are included in the recall)

    "The problem came to light in May when the National Highway Traffic Safety Administration said it had begun investigating 33 complaints of engine stalling in the Prius"

    I wonder how many defects in a Navigator they would have to have before they would initiate a recall...and if you think their aren't any computers running your lincoln....think again.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Toyota warrants their hybrid system for 150,000 miles/10 yrs (not sure if it is 8 yrs) in green states, 100,000 miles/8yrs all others. No one should worry about a catalytic converter with such a generous warranty.

    GO HYBRID!!

    9 weeks for my baby!
  • snakeweaselsnakeweasel a Certified Edmunds Poster.Member Posts: 17,916
    Controlled testing and real world experience are two different things. Many times real world experiences do not replicate test results. I will wait until the long term real world results are in. And the reason for the backlog has more to do with a limited supply than anything else.

    2011 Hyundai Sonata, 2014 BMW 428i convertible, 2015 Honda CTX700D

  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    piyoung said:
    " The brakes in the Prius are way better than the other cars I've driven."
    Go try any car with 4-wheel disc brakes.You do realize that the Prius has drums in the rear and also uses regerenative braking. While the Prius brakes are good there are many.many cars that brake better.

    Go to any BMW dealer and try any BMW and see what you think about handling and braking.

    The downside of most hybrids is that their stopping distance is more, for several reasons: (1) increased weight of batteries, (2) most have rear drums to accomodate Regenrative braking (3) handling and braking on low on the hybrid priority list.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    piyoung said: "On the other hand, he might have had to slow down for a normally aspirated vehicle that had stalled. "

    That implies the Prius is not normally aspirated also. But wait the Prius is not turbo charged or supercharged so it is also normally aspirated. That then means that the stalled car you are talking about could be another Prius. H'mm I wonder if one Prius running into another stalled Prius would bump start it ?

    As far as I know, there are no hybrids that take advantage of turbo/super charging

    Normally aspirated breathing,

    MidCow
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    C'mon, be serious. There are about that number of people on this board alone whose Prii have stalled. This is a WIDESPREAD problem, don't kid yourself.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Snake:

    1) The Technology has been tested and used in Japan for 9 years.

    2) Toyota does not rush to the market with new technology that is not fully proven

    3) Toyota would not do anything to tarnish it's reputation for reliability.

    4) This technology is not expecially complicated...I heard a local repair shop that specilizes in Japanese say they would have no problems working on Hybrid Cars but they doubt they will see any for years to come...
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