Any downside to buying a hybrid?

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Comments

  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Of course 1 vehicles is representative of the entire population. :surprise:
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,359
    ...... Yep, they're kinda like CRV's -- they get stupid money ... huge market and limited production ... the big difference is, percentage wise you see more Prius's's's's traded .......

    Terry ;)
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Do you thinks its the 'trade up' factor as people want into the new model rather than the more basic Gen1? Are many Gen2's going through the lanes?
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,359
    ............ Just like you read all of these posts on how nice and groovy they are ... you also have a large percentage of folks that traded-in their 5 series Bimmer or their Chevy Malibu or maybe the family Avalon to save gas - which is fine .... but what happens is, they drive the Prius (or hybrids like it) for 6/15 months and the light goes on and they think: .. "hey, I'm only saving $300/$600 a year and I gave up my trunk and interior space or my seat comfort, and the performance on the freeways - or maybe all of it.."

    Me personally, I'm not knocking hybrids .... because with the right folks in the right situation, with the right miles per year and keeping it for an *extended term* - they'll work ... for folks that drive a van or maybe a "non" business truck with a 4.11 rear end, drive 25k a year and get 10/12 mpg - it gets very attractive .... but for folks that usually trade every 28/36 months and drive 10k/15k a year and were getting pretty good gas mileage before, then the "comfort zone" usually gets them back into the trading mood .. thats why "many" Gen 2's get traded ....

    Ya gotta remember, the car market is very much like the golf market ..... do you think the average golfer (the majority) plays any better with a new set of Callaways or the new Nike Sasquatch driver ...? .. heeeck no.! .. but Annika, Mickelson and Tiger use them .. so therefore they will spend that $300/$1,800 more because they must have them to play better - in this case, save money in gas .... in the meantime, a new set of grips and maybe a different shaft to the tune of $30/$50 bucks would have achieved the same thing ........... ;)



    Terry.
  • pjyoungpjyoung Member Posts: 885
    in the winter they're lucky to see the mid/tall 30's .. down here in the south with the tempatures being 85+ for 9 months of the year it's the same thing ....

    Oddly enough, here in Kansas City, where wintertime temps are not "temperate", mine never delivered less than 45. In the summer, which saw a whole lot of days with temps near 100, I still saw high 40's, low 50's. And the only way I can figure that the summertime mileage can suffer from AC use is if the battery level drops, since the AC unit is electric and not engine driven. And my battery was showing one bar below green all summer long.

    you must have the patience of a Saint trying to convince them with any facts ..l..o..l....

    How long have you driven a Prius rroyce? My guess is never. So how can you use "facts" to dispute what "real world" results are reported by owners of a Prius?
  • hraohrao Member Posts: 78
    "Is Toyota a wolf in sheep's clothing?"

    That's what a stinging national ad campaign against Toyota Motor Corp., launched today by a San Francisco-based environmental group, suggests. The ad is to run in Mother Jones online today and be printed soon in full-page ads in the New York Times and other publications.

    Created by the Bluewater Network, a nonprofit organization that fights for clean air and water, the ads against Toyota are thought to be the first ever to attack a Japanese automaker on its environmental record in the United States.

    Hybrid Hype
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Terry:

    It is obvious you have never even sat in a Prius....Based on you comment about trunk space....It is a hatchBack and has a huge cargo area....far more then a full sized sedan would have it it's trunk...

    There are legit questions you may ask about Hyrbids...but just flat out making up stuff when you have never even looked inside one is rather silly and obvious to all owned or have driven one.
  • pjyoungpjyoung Member Posts: 885
    The ads also note that the average fuel mileage of Toyota vehicles is worse today than it was 20 years ago, according to the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency's 2005 Fuel Economy Trends report. In 2005, Toyota's fleet averaged 27.5 miles per gallon, the highest among manufacturers. But the company performed better in 1985, with its fleet averaging 30.0 miles per gallon, the EPA report shows.

    While Toyota has a stable of fuel-efficient cars, including the hybrid Prius, it also makes the Land Cruiser SUV (17 m.p.g. on the highway); Sequoia SUV (18 m.p.g.); 4Runner SUV (21 m.p.g.), and Tundra Double Cab (18 m.p.g.). Those vehicles have helped lower Toyota's overall fuel economy.


    While I hate SUV's and full size "personal" trucks, why does this group fault Toyota for providing what customers demand? What has made up the biggest selling share of most every automaker over the past 10-15 years? SUV's. They've even got a Porsche SUV for goodness sakes.

    I drive a Prius, and the only way I get mileage as low as they report is to take the vehicle on a 2 or 3 mile trip...before it has a chance to warm up. But in 1985, the "SUV boom" hadn't begun...Suburban's were driven by mostly farmers/ranchers and a small group of Texas "soccer moms". When the passing of a couple of decades included SUV's as the biggest sellers, just how many automakers saw overall fleet-wide improvements in mileage?

    I'm not a "greenie", but what do these people expect....for Toyota (or Ford for that matter) to cease making one of the few vehicles people wanted to buy...however misguided their logic is for buying one?
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    They should look at GM too. Maybe they own stock in GM, hence their fear? Who knows.... At least they are committed to making hybrid versions of most of their cars. Can't say that for GM or DC. Now they're all crying.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    They use a known "anti-hybrid" reporter for their pathetic MPG test, and then compare the "much smaller cars" 1985 line versus 2005 car line which has huge trucks now, a business requirement in order to compete.

    This can be nothing but bad for the environment if it drives even one person away from buying a Toyota hybrid vehicle. :mad:
  • mirthmirth Member Posts: 1,212
    Terry - an excellent, balanced post. Of course, balanced posts don't usually get a great reception on this forum, lol.

    The Bluewater thing makes me laugh. It just goes to show you that automakers just cannot make the extreme environmental groups happy. Ever. They won't be happy until all cars are eliminated and everyone has to walk or bike to work. So there's not a lot of percentage in trying to make them happy - cause they won't be.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I think many missed the thinking behind the ad campaign. First this is hardly a group that "like" GM and the SUVs they build. They are disappointed by the fact that Toyota is acting like they are environmentally conscious, then fighting the EPA and CARB on new rules and regulations. They praise the Prius and are disappointed in the other attempts at building hybrid vehicles. They are not alone. I will repeat a question I have asked many times. If they are really interested in building fuel efficient cars, why haven't they kicked up production on the Prius? It is selling far better than the two SUVs they build. If it is a shortage of batteries, concentrate on the car that sells best. Or has the Prius reached saturation and they don't want a bunch of hybrids on the lots? There were plenty available until Katrina drove the price of gas over 3 bucks.

    "Toyota has a lot of explaining to do," Bluewater's ads say. "We thought Toyota cared about the environment. ... Is this the same company that brought us the hybrid Prius, claiming to be an environmental leader?"

    The ads provide Toyota's telephone number and encourage consumers to call and ask Toyota to "build more fuel-efficient cars and end Toyota's opposition to critical U.S. environmental policies."
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    There are still waits for the car even as gas has settled down to 2.25- 2.75 around the country. Batteries and components are the issues. It takes a while to ramp up production. Meanwhile, once they release the Camry, it will take more capacity away from creating more Prius. Prius inventory is expressed in hours. I would love to see the day when you can buy one for a few hundred over dealer cost. It ain't gonna happen for a LONG time. Hybrids are here to stay for quite some time.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Quote gagrice-"then fighting the EPA and CARB on new rules and regulations."-end quote

    If you READ the entire article, a Toyota spokesperson explains Toyota's opposition completely reasonably:

    "Hubbell said Toyota is lobbying for regulations that are "rational and national," to avoid a patchwork system of standards "that would be a nightmare" for manufacturers to comply with."

    That's not unreasonable at all - they are not fighting it with the INTENT TO POLLUTE MORE, but only to make the regulations reasonable and rational and across the board" so that following the regulations is not a nightmare.

    On your second question:

    quote Gagrice-"If they are really interested in building fuel efficient cars, why haven't they kicked up production on the Prius?" - end quote

    Have you not followed the news? Toyota is readying a plant in Tokyo City which will produce ONE PRIUS PER MINUTE. They are planning on selling 400,000 hybrids worldwide in 2006, ONE MILLION BY 2010. They are ramping up Prius production as fast as they can.

    See this article for a breakdown of Toyota's hybrid current and future plans:

    http://car-reviews.automobile.com/news/industry-report-toyota-plans-for-hybrid-alternative- -in-100-percent-of-models-in-future/1454/
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    It just goes to show you that automakers just cannot make the extreme environmental groups happy. Ever.

    I agree with that analysis. I want clean air and water as much as the rest of us. I just think we have gone to the extreme. The hybrids are a direct result of that extreme. Some get a taste and want more. A simple clean burning diesel such as the Smart Twofor would be great for running around town. It gets an HONEST 70 MPG even on short trips. If we are serious about saving oil & cutting GHG that is an alternate direction to go. The Canadians consider them clean cars.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    The Canadians think they are clean cars...Or just clean enough? They are not as clean as Toyota Cars...Almost any toyota car hybrid or not....

    Canadians think they are clean...they also think national health care is good then come down to the states by the millions when they need medical attention...
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"A simple clean burning diesel such as the Smart Twofor would be great for running around town. It gets an HONEST 70 MPG even on short trips."-end quote

    Gary, you wanna finance a SMART CAR dealership in CA to sell all those little two seater diesels? How many you think you could sell in a year?

    OH NO I FORGOT !! Those are illegal to sell in CA.

    Gary, Hybrids are a REAL and REASONABLE car to sell to reduce pollution and GHG emissions. They are not perfect, as is NO car. But they are the best we have right now.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I don't think those cars would sell well, but I may be wrong. In Europe I'd buy one, but here in the States, I wouldn't stand a chance on the highway. I am going to go to the European site where crash tests are posted. I am curious. IF it is safe, then perhaps we should urge them to sell them here.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    so that following the regulations is not a nightmare.

    It is a nightmare and has been for many years. A car built for AZ may not be legal in CA. Even today you cannot buy a new gas vehicle in AZ and easily license it in CA.

    They are planning on selling 400,000 hybrids worldwide in 2006

    They were planning to sell 120k Prii in the US this year. If the average time on the lot is 20 hours I would say every car they sent over is sold. They only sold 80k through September. Do you think they will ship enough to fulfill their promise by the end of December? If they are making a decent profit on the Prius it would be available on every dealers lot by now.

    I don't understand that kind of blind faith shown in an automaker. I trust the automakers about as much as I trust the oil companies. Their only reason for existence is to make money. If they have to look green doing it, so be it. Toyota stole a page from the British Petroleum ad agency.

    Blue whatever they call themselves, are just trying to hold Toyota's feet to the fire. No different than the goofy ad Toyota came out with. It is extreme environmentalists going after the extreme profiteers.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    quote Gagrice-"It is a nightmare and has been for many years. A car built for AZ may not be legal in CA. Even today you cannot buy a new gas vehicle in AZ and easily license it in CA."-end quote

    So them suing them to try and make it BETTER is a GOOD IDEA, is it not?

    The article you read explains Toyota's production issues very well. It's not completely their fault that they cannot get the parts they need in a timely manner to produce all the Priuses that would sell.
  • rroyce10rroyce10 Member Posts: 9,359
    .... **How long have you driven a Prius rroyce? My guess is never. So how can you use "facts" to dispute what "real world" results are reported by owners of a Prius? ...

    **Terry: It is obvious you have never even sat in a Prius.... Based on you comment about trunk space.... It is a hatchback and has a huge cargo area.... far more then a full sized sedan would have it it's trunk...
    There are legit questions you may ask about Hyrbids...but just flat out making up stuff when you have never even looked inside one is rather silly and obvious to all owned or have driven one**
    ...
    ================================



    Aaah, I hate to break this to ya .........

    I was driving, buying and selling them when you two guys still thought the word "Prius" was a Monastery in Tibet ...... it seems like the only exercise your getting here ~ is jumping to conclusions ...l.o.l.... read my profile ....



    Terry ;)
  • mistermemisterme Member Posts: 407
    In my personal case, we've been a Dodge family for decades.
    The biggest factor in my last car purchase wasn't about saving the Earth or appeasing the trees, it was saving fuel dollars.

    Given that, the second runner up was the Neon but it lost out for its poor economy and reliability reviews.
    We had waited an extra year to see if the '03 HCH's developed problems but they didn't.
    I also spent that time doing research on hybrid vehicles and while the HCH is not an Insight, the drivetrain is very similar and I believed the HCH was capable of very nice numbers. The anti-hybrid hype by the media was just about getting in full swing. My automotive friends told me that the hybrid technology "Isn't quite there yet" based on what they've read.
    I came from a 16MPG 4 cyl Dodge Spirit and figured 40-45MPG would be fantastic.

    At that time I never dreamed I'd ever break a 900 mile tank, let alone do it consistently.
    If I'd have listened to the anti-hybrid hype and my automotive friends I'd be driving that Neon pulling low 20's, not low-mid 60's.

    Tree-hugger, no.
    Fuel saver, yes!
    Who makes the efficient vehicle makes no difference to our family and doesn't matter if their other vehicle lineup might be guzzling SUV's.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    ZAP is supposed to sell a gas version. They are awaiting EPA approval. Many people in WA that have places up in British Columbia are buying them and using them in Washington. The little 3 cylinder diesel will not pass CARB regs. It would be a cool car for running my errands around town. The convertible sells for $19k Canadian. They may be on the road here very soon. Check out the crash test with a Mercedes full size car.

    http://www.zapworld.com/cars/smartCar.asp
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Good news!! I would buy one in a heartbeat!! How reliable are they? Hopefully they don't have DC quality, otherwise I may wait until it improves.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    I'd be driving that Neon pulling low 20's, not low-mid 60's.

    I know you attribute your high fuel mileage driving skills to the HCH. If people were motivated and trained in non-hybrid vehicles to use the skills available, they could see vast improvement in their FE. I know for myself I watch the MPG indicator on my Passat TDI. I think I have advanced a bit over not having that tool. Not near your level of FE. I average less than 10k miles per year total in two vehicles.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Certain manufacturers have better FE with the same displacement engines. I used to own a 2.0 ltr Subaru WRX (auto). Try as i might, I could NOT get over 24 mpg average in that car. My brother has a 04 Solara and in stop and go city drivng on short trips with his 2.4ltr 4 he sometimes gets LESS than 20. Driving back from FL to NY he averaged 28. I can get twice that much in the Prius. Gotta love that baby!!!
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Boy, if Ford or GM had said they were lobbying for regulations that are rational, I wonder how quick you would have leaped to their defense, larsb? In fact, all US automakers have been lobbying against the mommy state for decades and have been bashed left and well, left for it all along. Now some group DARES to lump Toyota in with the rest and oooh boy, doth we protest much here!

    Meanwhile the saver of the planet, the greenest of the car companies (in more ways than one) is running TV advertisements with butterflies and green grass and trees and asking if we would all be happier and breathe easier if everyone drove a Toyota. What a bunch of hogwash. How about we all drive Land Cruisers?
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    If gas was $0.79 a gallon (and plentiful) I'd be driving a something with a Hemi. AT LEAST Toyota has the insight to see the need for fuel efficient vehicles. Give it time. If they didn't build a Land Cruiser they'd lose that market share. Why should they forfeit revenue to a competitor? Their advertising is working as it has annoyed people that don't believe in Toyota's committment to a greener environment. Now ALL the manufacturers are crying and they ALL want in. Hopefully they're not too late for the party.

    GO HYBRID!!!

    Ten weeks and counting....WOO HOOOOOO!!!
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    ten more weeks, 2 1/2 months to get your dream car? In the meantime, you're polluting the air with your Bentley? :>)

    BTW, I just noticed the subtle anti-Americanism right here at Edmunds with the title line "What is this discussion about?" answer. Take a look for yourselves and see if u can figure out my point.
  • pjyoungpjyoung Member Posts: 885
    Terry...sorry, but in the course of selling cars, you have obviously never looked in the back seat of a second generation prius. If I'm giving up legroom at 6'4" (and knees do not touch the back of the front seat), then you must be Andre the Giant. And it's quite possible to only get 35 mpg around town...if the owner who was trading it was taking short (less than 10 mile) commutes. I don't doubt you've seen a number of Prius coming in on trade (although the number of second generation can't be all that high), but how do your "facts" outweigh my "factual observations" about the Prius I use as my daily driver? Wintertime mileage is mid 40's...Summertime driving is high 40's or low 50's....and I'm not pushing for max mpg...just driving the thing.

    It's interesting though that you are a dealer...my sister was interested in buying an Escape hybrid. The salesrep told her 'they don't get all that great of mileage'...and started pushing her towards a "regular" Escape. Reason? He had a lot full of regular Escapes, but nary a hybrid on the lot.

    Now...you being in the business and all...and I'm sure you are a great salesman....if you had a lot full of hybrid Escapes and no regular ones, would you push the virtues of hybrid ownership on a potential buyer, or would you encourage the 'normally aspirated' Escape, and take her order? Which one provides money to the dealership at the end of the day...the one in stock, or the one you have to wait a month or more for? When it comes to making money - a salesman is going to push hard for what he has, and spread FUD about what he doesn't carry.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Do you really think I have a Bently? LOL!!!!

    TEN MORE WEEKS!!! Gotta love it!!!!

    YAHOOO!!!!

    A new shiny Prius shall be in my garage.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Seems like more of a

    SIMPLE OMISSION

    than

    subtle anti-Americanism........
  • zodiac2004zodiac2004 Member Posts: 471
    Terry...sorry, but in the course of selling cars, you have obviously never looked in the back seat of a second generation prius.

    Stop digging yourself deeper, will ya.

    Terry probably knows more about cars than everyone else combined in this forum.
  • PF_FlyerPF_Flyer Pennsylvania Furnace, PAMember Posts: 9,400
    Reaching... the list of vehicles and subjects that are listed in the "What this discussion is about" line are generally chosen by the creator of the discussion and don't necessarily to to reflect anythng other than general subject matter to help folks find information with the search tools.

    This topic was created one year ago today as a matter of fact and it's quite possible that the Ford Escape had not yet been added to the list of vehciles that discussions could be categorized with at that time.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    I seriously doubt that.
  • pjyoungpjyoung Member Posts: 885
    Terry obviously has never sat in the back seat of a second generation Prius. Legroom in back is quite good...he made comments to the contrary. I don't doubt he knows a lot about cars, but his comments on the Prius are off the mark.
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    sometimes........ :shades:
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    The back seat room in the Prius is MORE than an E class Mercedes. How's that for comfort??????
  • yesrohyesroh Member Posts: 290
    I wish I had the back seat legroom of a Prius. It's a mid-size car which puts it in the league of the Honda Accord and Toyota Camry, more than enough for a family of four, and though the performance isn't tops, it still compares very favorably with other cars in its class. Last I checked Consumer Reports, it was just 1/10 of a second slower than a Dodge Stratus up to 60 miles an hour. They aren't slow. They'd probably beat most small cars with automatics and get dramatically better gas mileage.
    Speaking of gas mileage, I used to drive a 4-door Honda Civic and my average was 42mpg the first year. It was just a plain car with a strong engine and it was a blast to drive. My all-time best mpg was 53.4 mpg. There were cars around 20 years ago that could get mileage comparable to the Prius and the old Honda Civic VX could get 48city/55 highway. The only car that can top 55mpg highway is the Honda Insight. Hybrids do well, but they could do a lot better.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaMember Posts: 31,450
    The thread on the Ford hybrid Escape is under the directory of "hybrid vehicles". I don't think it shows up under the "hybrid" heading. It is a very active thread as you will see. Here is the first of 1213 postings. As you already know the thread ends up in whatever directory you start it in. If you ask the host or hostess very nicely they will add it to others for you. Hope this helps.

    jefyou, "Ford Escape Hybrid" #1, 28 Aug 2002 10:11 pm
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    There is a choice to create any thread you like. You can create anything to your heart's content within reason. The EPA classifies the Prius as a mid size car. I actually WISH they classified it as a compact. In the mall I go to they have parking spots for COMPACTS only. In Europe it's actually classified as a LARGE car. I don't care HOW they classify it. That sucker got some serious leg room.

    GO HYBRID!!

    TEN WEEKS TO GO!!

    YEAH BABY!!!!
  • larsblarsb Member Posts: 8,204
    Heyjewlel, the Prius *IS INDEED* classified as a midsize car by almost everyone. Some publications and other places have it as a Compact, which is incorrect.

    The "Midsize" classification is based on interior room.

    From this story:

    http://www.dfw.com/mld/dfw/business/columnists/chambers_williams/12358958.htm

    "And increasing the interior space to make the Prius midsize has worked as Toyota planned to bring it to the attention of mainstream car buyers, rather than continuing as just a darling of “green” conscious consumers."

    And from this story:

    http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/intellichoice/sedans/369_0508_review_2005_toyota_priu- - s/

    "Toyota raised the bar, creating a midsize car with fuel efficiency greater than that of most compacts. In addition to enabling the Prius' extreme performance and cargo-toting ability, the distinctive styling made an instant political statement.
    "


    And From Motor Trend's Car Of The Year story:

    http://www.motortrend.com/roadtests/alternative/112_031120_coy/

    "After weeks of exhaustive testing, Motor Trend editors found the Toyota Prius to be a user-friendly gas/electric hybrid capable of delivering an impressive 60 miles per gallon in city driving. It is the first of such vehicles to move into the automotive mainstream, with performance, style and quality. Spacious enough to be classified as a midsize sedan, the Prius' futuristic bodywork, innovative Hybrid Synergy Drive, pleasing interior and five-door hatchback design, clearly placed it above the competition."

    Look it up.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Whatever your profile says...The fact is your comment about no trunk space is simply WRONG....

    You can talk about your profile, I am talking about the actual comment you made.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Good point...If we All drove Land Crusers...At any point in time at least 1/2 of them would be sitting in the shop...That has to be good for both fuel consumption and at least somewhat green.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Zodiak:

    He doesn't know much about Prius...Did you see his trunk space comment...It is obvious he has never been up close to a Prius.
  • michael_mattoxmichael_mattox Member Posts: 813
    Jewel

    "Real World Trade in Value....That explains Terry's lack of knowledge of the 04/05 Prius....they haven't been around long enough to have been traded in, at least not in any numbers that a "TRADE IN GUY" would know much about them....

    Consumer Reports...Apr. 05...Toyota's Second-generation Prius is unbeatable for its economy, acceleration and interior room..

    P.S. it is a mid sized car.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    More evidence

    http://tinyurl.com/8mkwf

    Hopefully this is the last we have to post to prove that it is classified as a midsize.
  • heyjewelheyjewel Member Posts: 1,046
    Well, a brief lookthru the Prius Problems and Solutions topic presents quite a number of downsides it seems to me, to wit:

    Dying on the road, paint coming off, will not track straight, brakes shake like crazy, poor gas mileage, won't start, $15000 repair bills, 2 weeks at dealer, shuddering, surging, BURSTING INTO FLAMES!!!!

    To name just a few.
  • falcononefalconone Member Posts: 1,726
    Prius has 94% satisfaction rating from CR. I would tend to think less highly of your Lincoln which is plagued with tons more issues. Talk about crap!!! GEEEEZ.....
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