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  • jmarounjmaroun Posts: 151
    Unfortunately, due to the convincing arguments shed here, some for SMG and some for Manual, the decision has not been made easier. I'm confident that there is a reason, some experience or argument yet to be made, that will tip the balance. I look forward to the moment that this truth is revealed. Maybe different people will require different reasons that will do the trick for them. I hope to find my reason/s. I have some time before the end of my lease to ponder and learn from other perspectives. Ultimately, the decision will be a personal one.

    So far here's the Summary:

    2007/8 M3 with SMG III
    - silky smooth, telepathic, and super-human fast shifts
    - promotes an average driver's capability to take the car closer to it's limits
    - reduces chance of damaging transmission
    - can revert to automatic mode while in traffic
    - Less control of engine power transfer with no clutch
    - Less fun than Manual??

    2008 M3 with Manual
    - Infinite flexibility of engine power transfer due to clutch and direct control of gears
    - More Fun than SMG??
    - Alot of physical activity.. seems tiring to me
    - Must practice to get good at shifting fast but will never be as fast as SMG
    - Easier to burn transmission with 400+hp V8, than with SMG

    I may have missed and distorted some points here.
    To me, the Fun factor advantage of the Manual, if it is true, has alot of weight in the consideration. The utility of SMG, by simplifying the driving activity while providing supreme performance, is attractive as well. How to choose?? I have no clue.

    in San Diego
  • acbrbmwacbrbmw Posts: 19
    i don't know what to say to make it easyer for you.

    bottom line, you are not a "purist". i think that because of that you will have fun with either set up. the safe choice is smg, because you will never get tired of it like you would with the stick.

    for ultimatedriver he could never go without the stick, but he finds the control and shifting fun. he's not wrong, you're not right....its two different people with different perspectives.

    why do yout think there are some 250 plus cars for sale in north america......people have different needs and tastes.
  • jim2727jim2727 Posts: 7
    I have a 98 M3 with stick and had a Subaru WRX with stick. Because of the torque available on the M3, it did not have to be shifted very often in traffic (unlike the Subaru).

    I test drove an M3 with the lastest SMG offered in that model and while it was impressive, it did not shift very smoothly at all when driving around town.

    Just my 2 cents. I hope this is helpful.

    BTW: I got an email from Audi saying the US RS4 is over 3,900 pounds. I doubt BMW will be that silly and make the next M3 such a pig.
  • I agree with acbr. Go with the SMG and have a blast. Make sure you chose the right shift program regardless of what mode you're in. Any of the 4 available extremes may be too much too soon for you, just as it was for me. After you acclimate yourself to the car's power and torque characteristics, play around and see what it'll do.

    As far as that RS4 is concerned Jim2727, I don't think any of us at the BMW camp need worry. I haven't seen any weight figures of the new M3 but I doubt it'll register higher than 3600 on the scales, giving the weight to horsepower advantage to the M3. Besides, the M6 is about 3700 and change, so there's no way the M3 is gonna be that heavy.

    Let's cross our fingers for some scaled down M6 engineering weight saving tricks like a CFP roof and bumpers, along with fiberglass-reinforced plastic side panels and rear decklid. Along with the inevitable aluminum suspension pieces and lighter engine, I feel we have very little to worry about as far as the weight of the M3 is concerned.

    What does concern me is the direction the M3 program is headed in general. As I stated previously, I fear that we are losing the lithe, agile sports car hidden away in every M3. We're getting further and further into supercar territory with this horsepower war.

    I am also a bit dismayed over the loss of the straight 6, though I do look forward to the V8. I've been an automotive technician for most of my life, both free lance and professional, and have come to adore the way that engine makes it's power in it's multiple guises. I'll admit I didn't like the iron block at first, but I grew to appreciate it's strength.

    Call me selfish, but I was sort of hoping for a final evolution of the inline six cylinder engine. This last one was a 3.2 liter, 343 horsepower powerhouse that had very similar figures to the 3.2 liter powerplant in one of the "special" versions of the mid-seventies 3.0 CSL. One of the final evolutions of that engine displaced 3.5 liters. It made approximately 430 horsepower and made the car fly like a "bat" out of hell on the racing circuit. A modern successor to that engine would've been a nice curtain call for the straight six.


    Call me sentimental, but cars like these are the essence of BMW Motorsport.
  • acbrbmwacbrbmw Posts: 19
    i understand your sentiment, but if bmw makes a new m3-like every new car bmw makes-it will blow away the older one and your sentiment for the 6 will turn into lust for the 8
  • I've had lust for V8 engines since childhood. Yet I've always had a preference for a good fight. I loved the fact that, at it's debut, the E46 M3 could nearly match the Corvette's horsepower and acceleration numbers with a highly tuned six. Even in my current car, which is a modified 325i, I'm untouchable by most V8 challengers out there.

    There's something to be said about light weight and an awesome top end kick. While the new M5 may not be able to take a lot of competition off of the line in the hands of the average driver, trying to keep pace with it on the highway is a different story all together. The same can be said of the E46 M3. It isn't as impressive off the line as it is a terror above 40mph. No unnecessary wheel spin or break of traction, just precisely metered acceleration all the way up to 175mph (trashed the gov'nah). All that fury was hard to keep up with for V8 sports cars/GTs. But now with most of the class achieving 60mph in the low to mid 4s, I guess the V8 is a necessary evil as well.

    About "blowing away the older one." As much as I love every evolution of the 3 series, my all time favorite is the E36. Even though the E90 is idiot proof in it's handling character, the E36 begged to be tossed around in a manner the heavier succeeding models couldn't understand. When you were done playing, it would take off the sneakers and put on the loafers and quietly take you home, whether it was an M3 or not.
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 875
    there be a traditional manual offered for the new 4 door M3?
  • I sincerely hope so, dhamilton. If there isn't, I'm not going for it. I draw the line at 500hp, unless it's up high. That's why I'm looking forward to the 6 speed M5. However, ~400hp is controlable.

    I do have a question about the V8, though. Acbr, you may be able to find an answer for me. Are the bore and stroke of the new V8 going to be identical to the ones on the M V10? BMW can really do whatever they want to make the V8 4.0 liters, not necessarily leaving the architecture alone.

    The reason I ask is because I remember the S52B32(read 3.2L inline six from E46 M3) having an unusually long stroke, not consistent with engines that operated at the speeds that engine worked at. If BMW tightens the bore a bit, and makes the stroke longer to make the claimed displacement figure, AND keeps the redline as lofty as the M5's, then we M3 fans will have something new to rejoice about other than driving the best sports sedan in the world. A compact V8 that has awesome low-end torque characteristics.
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Posts: 992
    Hey Hey Hey, lookie here at what i found...

  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 875
    2 door looks so much better than 4 door IMO.
  • autoboy16autoboy16 Posts: 992
    regardless, there may be a 4door m3 to go toe to toe with the RS4 and C55 and C65AMG :)
  • dhamiltondhamilton Posts: 875
    there is a 4 door as that would make a very intersting comparo between that an the new rs4
  • merc1merc1 Posts: 6,081
    Been reading several of your posts around, exciting reading.

    I don't think the I6 is finished at BMW just yet. As you probably know the M Roadster and M Coupe, both based on the Z4 just got the I6 from the M3.....but there is the 1-Series to think about. BMW said that they'd never build a M version of the Z4 and now here it is. In short I expect a M version of the 1-Series at some point. Not sure if they'll use the "M1" badge for obvious historic reasons, but they will have to use a I6 for that car. Maybe something like a 330hp 3.0L I6.

    BMW is slowly moving their cars upmarket with each generation. People complained about the E46 back in 1999 and some are complaining now about the E90 because of the larger size etc., this is however where the 1-Series comes in. I think we'll get a 1-Series sedan/coupe/convertible in 2008 and they'll be closer to the E36 in spirit I think.

    The next 3-Series convertible gets a folding hardtop so it appears that weight goes up, but the spy pics of the 1-Series shows a tradition fabric top. They're just moving the 3 upwards and slotting the 1 in it's place, IMO.

  • glkatzglkatz Posts: 5
    Hello everyone. First, thanks for all the info - I'm truly learning a lot. I've always wanted a BMW and finally at the point where I can "afford" (i.e., struggle but get it) one. Here's the deal I was offered on a 2006 M3 convertible:

    Money factor - .0031 (i might be missing a zero but its definately .something 31)
    MSRP - 62,500 (I've checked on Edmunds and w/the features it comes w/that's the correct MSRP)
    10,000 miles a year (all I need)

    The woman doesn't seem like she'll budge all that much re: price. From reading other BMW posts it seems you can really get it down to about 1,700 over invoice, but when I ran the M3 on edmunds it said folks are pretty much paying MSRP. Is this true? If not how much should I expect to pay over invoice. I live in NY - shopping in LI and NYC.

    All in all came to about $1,025/month lease for 36 months and about 5k due at signing (3k of which was taxes - fun)

    Also, I'd much prefer a hard top but does anyone know if / when these will be available on M3's?

    Again, thanks for all the help everyone in your posts. Please let me know your thoughts re: my lease offer and also anything else that I'm too new to know to ask about.

    Best of luck !

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,331
    TMV on edmunds really isn't that accurate. You can get as much better deal. The good thing about your lease is that the .00310 is the correct buy rate (money factor) for an '06 M3 Convertible with you 36 month/10K per year lease. The bad part about it is the upfront money and of course the cost. $5,000 is a lot of money to pay up front on a lease. Roll your taxes into the payment. If the car gets totalled or stolen an hour after you take delivery, good luck getting your money back from Gov. Pataki. Your only up front costs should be $625 bank fee (sometimes the dealer marks up this fee by $200, 1st month's payment, & security deposit. Given the competition and so many dealers in the NYC area, unless you're buying a Supercharged Range Rover Sport, M5, M6, Ferrari, or Mini you shouldn't be paying MSRP.

    Call around to different dealerships. Sit on her offer and let her know that you won't pay MSRP for the car. Pick a number that you're comfortable. Give her a hard number, not $1500 over MSRP or whatever.

    What dealership are you shopping at?

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Infiniti G37x Q40 AWD

  • glkatzglkatz Posts: 5
    First - thanks for taking the time to respond - I really appreciate it. A couple of questions - how does "rolling" the tax payment into the lease work? I just want to know how to "argue" for it. Being new at this I just thought my pmts to BMW are one thing and the tax is just like if I bought a t-shirt (to a much larger extreme) and the money goes to NYS - didn't know I could roll it into the pmt.

    I'm definately going to call around. I'm dealing w/a dealership in Huntington, LI. I actually work on Wall st and the dealership there is so much more helpful and friendly. They're not there on weekends so I'll discuss w/them monday. You'd think on Wall st they'd try and rip you off but I had a great feeling from them / pricing on the 330xi I orginally wanted.

    Any idea as to what would be a "reasonable" agreed sales price for a $63k M3 convertible? I dont want to get ripped off but dont want to get laughed at either.

    Also, I know this is a BMW forum, and that's the car I've fallen far, but a not so distant 2nd was the CLK convertible. Any thoughts? I'm going w/the BMW - just wondering if folks agree.

    Thanks again for your time - it is very much appreciated.

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,331
    If you tell me what options are on the M3 you're looking at then we can look up the invoice and we'll work out a selling price, then use the bmw money factor, and your tax rate (you live in Nassau or Suffolk & what is sales tax there?) to figure out what your payment should be.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Infiniti G37x Q40 AWD

  • glkatzglkatz Posts: 5
    Again, thank you for your help. The specifics as to the M3 convertible are as follows (some may not be needed but I figured I'd tell you everything I know):

    1. Metallic paint
    2. Leather interior
    3. SMG
    4. Xenon headlights
    5. Rear airbags
    6. Navigation
    7. Harmon sound system

    I've been told MSRP is approx. $63,730 (including a dest. charge of $695).

    The sales tax in NYC is 8.375%

    10,000 miles a year lease / 36 months

    .0031 Money factor (again might be messing up the number of 0's).

    Also, if you can explain to me how "rolling" the tax into the pmt works I'd appreciate it.

    Again, I can't thank you enough for your help - it's great knowing there are folks out there taking the time to help make sure those who really love and desire a BMW, but aren't as educated on the topic, obtain the best possible deal. Thanks!

  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,331
    Gabe - I worked up some numbers for you based on the options you provided for me:

    MSRP: $65,030 (Includes $695 destination & $1,300 gas guzzler tax)

    Invoice: $59,535 (Includes $695 destination & $1,300 gas guzzler tax)

    Leasing is just like buying a car. You negotiate the price of the car first. $1500 over dealer invoice is a fair deal on an M car. The number I want you to shoot for is: $61,035 (start $500 lower & work your way up). This is the capitalized cost of the lease.

    For 36 months with 15,000 miles per year the base money factor (lease rate) is .00310 (which you have been given) & residual value is set at 56% (this is set by BMW FS & cannot be marked up by the dealer).

    You will not "put money down" which means maken a capitalized cost reduction.

    This car should cost you $1068.50 per month for 36 months including NYC sales tax of 8.375%.

    Your total amount due at signing is $625 Bank Fee (they might try to mark this up by $200), First month's payment of $1068.50, & a Security Deposit of $1100.00 (I think).

    You want to roll (include) your taxes INTO the lease payment instead of paying them upfront. Like I said previously if you pay the taxes upfront and your car gets stolen the night you pick it up or totalled driving out of the dealer's lot good luck getting that money back from Gov. Pataki. This is also the reason you don't make a cap cost reduction on a lease (just change Gov Pataki's name to BMW Financial Services). Good luck! Let me know how you do.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Infiniti G37x Q40 AWD

  • jmarounjmaroun Posts: 151
    I presume the last several posts are referring to the current M3 since the next M3 is expected to come out, according to what a sales rep told me this Saturday, some time early 08, late 07. Quite some time from now. How accurate is this prediction??

    I think it's fair to say that many 06 330i 3/yr lease goers may consider the M3 when their lease is up mid 08 time-frame. That is, I'm probably not the only one. Having never bought or leased a car like this, I'd appreciate some useful hints on how to go about getting the car I want, (08 M3 with all the options/colors), when I want it, (when my lease is up in 1.8 years), and for how much I want to pay for it, (a fair price).

    I'd really appreciate some hints on how to prepare. For example, do I really need to put 1G down to get on a waiting list as a dealer highly recommended? Do waiting lists restrict ability to get a fair price? Furthermore, should I be grateful at the dealer's "generous" and noble oath to "only" charge MSRP? Or will there be room for negotiation? I really don't like to haggle, but if I can get a better deal with little or no more stress compared to on-line vendors, such as, I'm more than willing to try. Another thing I'm concerned about is whether or not I'll have the skillz to really enjoy all that an M3 has to offer. I'm seriously considering participating in a local BMW's performance driving school.

    Lastly, I've leased this 330i because I thought I'd want, well,..more. I was right. Furthermore, I've heard that BMW's costly repair requirements, due to costly German parts and less than stellar 3 series reliability after 4 years, make leasing attractive. With an M3 however, I'm sure my sports car appetite will be satisfied. I am curious about M3 quality/reliability. What do repair costs after 4 years look like for an M3? Should I buy or lease the 60-65k beast considering this will probably be my only/last sports sedan before I get married and have kiddies. say hello to Honda Odyssey nooo!!

    Thanks for all advice in advance,

    San Diego
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,331
    We have been talking about the current e46 body style M3. Gabe, how did you do btw?

    Just to make a few points:

    The M3 isn't a "step-up car" like you say. many people "step up" from a 325i to a 330i or from a 330i to a 530i... The M3 is a different animal. It is designed to be an all out sports car. Not for the timid at heart ;)

    What you pay is up to you. I could car less about being the first on the block with the new "hot" car. I wouldn't pay $1,000 just to get my name on a waiting list. But what do I know? I'm not in the market for one of these amazing machines (I have a customer who told me today he got a good deal on an '06 Shelby GT500 Mustang because he only paid $15K over sticker). How well they sell depends on the economy. Back in '01 when the current M3 was introduced, people were paying $10K over sticker.

    Do you have a 330i now? When your lease is up, there will be a Twin Turbo (300hp/300 lb-ft) 335i Coupe/sedan available.

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Infiniti G37x Q40 AWD

  • jmarounjmaroun Posts: 151
    Thanks, but No Thanks for that load of advice.

    I'd appreciate advice from people who can at least
    respect the question and not make assumptions about
    the person asking the question.

    Firstly, I'm seriously considering an M3 when my lease is up.

    Secondly, I'd appreciate constructive advice on how to get one. Preferably from experienced buyers and not from the indifferent and especially not from a biased sales rep!

    I hope there will be better advice out there cause I'd sure appreciate it.


    San Diego, CA
  • nyccarguynyccarguy Stamford, CTPosts: 11,331
    I'm not a biased sales rep at all :confuse: I'm not in the car business at all. I thought I answered your question constructively and honestly. My customer that is buying the Shelby GT500 Mustang certainly isn't buying it from the plumbing supply house I work at. He is buying it from a Ford dealership. I do not advocate buying ANY car for one cent over MSRP (or even at MSRP).

    If you want a new M3 and have to be the first on the block to have it, then go and pay money to get on a waiting list.

    If you can be patient and wait (maybe extend the lease on your 330i). Maybe that sounds like your best option since you sound like you want to keep the car for a long time. I LOVE BMWs (and hope to own at least one further down the road). The M3 is a high performance sports car with a free revving engine and tightly wound suspension. The new V8 will be a derivitave of the current E60 M5's V10 and may have some teething problems. The current E46 M3s had engine problems (I can't recall exactly what) during their first year of production.

    As for buying vs. leasing, since BMW will sell every single one of these with no problem don't expect any lease support in the form of a low lease rate (money factor) or pumped up residual value. A loan payment might be the same as a lease payment. Example: A $50,XXX dollar 530i will probably have a much lower lease payment than an M3 with a similar sticker price given the mileage allotment & term of lease are the same (say 3 years 15,000 miles per year).

    2001 Prelude Type SH, 2011 Pilot EX-L 4WD, 2015 Infiniti G37x Q40 AWD

  • If I were you, I'd wait until the second model year. Those teething problems in the aforementioned post were due to the semi dry-sump oiling system which utilized one conventional, high capacity oil pump and a scavenger pump which recycled the oil back onto the internals of the engine.

    This new M3 won't have that system on it. I can't remember off hand, but I'm sure this will be a single pump/reservoir dry sump system. There were also some sealing problems with a lot of the gaskets from the 2001 models. BMW made sure to address this in the following model years, so I'm sure they've shaken down this new engine thoroughly.

    I'd wait until some idiot leases one for his wet-nosed son's birthday gift. Let others find the problems for you. I say there's no better way to shake the bugs out of a new car than to put in the hands of a teenager. ;)

    I'm going to take one on a "tour of the city," finding faults and what not. Then some acceleration and speed runs at the airport. After all that, I may sign up for a driving course. I've raced all over and halved 6 figure cars on 2 continents, but I've never been to a BMW driving school. I'm looking forward to hearing your experiences if you decide to go forward with it.
  • jmarounjmaroun Posts: 151
    Depending on the M3 debut timing relative to my lease, ending in roughly 2 years, I very well be aligned to get the second M3 year model.

    Regarding the picture #103, posted by autoboy; I'm not sure where that came from however I certainly hope the new M3 will look better than that. Silver in my opinion has been Played Out on most 3series. I'll be shooting for something a bit more stand out'ish. Maybe yellow or Sky Blue.

    nyccarguy and utlimatedriver: Your points are well taken on the BMW teething problem. I will be cautious.

    ultimate: I will Surely appreciate your feedback on the new M3. How do you get to drive these new cars anyway?? I'll be signing up to the BMW driving school soon and will post my experiences.

    For the moment, I'm enjoying my 330i. One of the most pleasing aesthetic thing about this car is the rims that came with the sports package. They fit the car well! I also enjoy aggressively taking a curve or two when i get the chance. Mostly, I'm just enjoying the feel of the ride. The low end torque is a bit disappointing. The M3 can solve that problem and emphasize on the road feel I'm sure.

    I'm hoping to get more inputs and comments. Perhaps it's too early.

    Thanks for both inputs!

    San Diego
  • sdiver68sdiver68 Posts: 123
    I've been on 2 waiting lists for high demand vehicles, the Yamaha R1 when it first came out and no one not on a waiting list could buy one for several months, and the E46 M3 SMG which was wait listed for at least 6 months, except for those dealers who sold well over MSRP. In both cases, I paid $1K down and contracted for MSRP, and for the 1st one avaialble that met me specs (options and color). Both times I changed my mind, the R1 I sold my spot to a friend for the same $1K, the second I decided I needed a sedan with my growing son so the $1K was applied towards a 330i Sport.
  • deweydewey Posts: 5,251
    There is finally a glimmer of hope for the very few rarebirds waiting for a M3 wagon ( I am among one of those rarebirds and hopefully not the only one).

    link title
  • ssoccorsossoccorso Posts: 1
    Im going to lease 2006 M3 (a.s.a.p) with silver grey metallic, cold weather pack, xenon lights, nav, harman-sound,19" rims, SMG box. *MSRP total is $67,145.00 thats paying full MSRP with out Illinois tax.I need 17,000 miles per year, I've tried 15,000 miles and I'm always over by 2,000 to 3,000 miles. I believe i can get the M3 for $65,000. **this will be my 3rd bmw lease, Ihave leased 2001 and now turning in my 2004 745i. what would be a great/good lease payment for me. I want a great deal. given this info. please help. Thank you.
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