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Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans

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Comments

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They just tested the 3 series against the IS350.

    I think they picked the wrong models to test, though. They kept whining about the auto in the IS350, then why not test the IS250, which is a V6 as well and comes with the manual? It's closer to the 325 than the IS350 is to the 330i.

    I've also noticed that when they pick a 3 series with iDrive, it tends to lose, and the ones without iDrive tend to win. Pretty interesting.

    Another disparity - the IS350 had NAV, yet the Bimmer didn't. Pretty significant difference.

    -juice
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    "ith respect to quality, BMW has declined in reliability and overall quality over the past two years. This is reflected in Consumer Reports reliability records. Audi on the other hand has made significant improvements and has achieved "recommended" status. "

    I don't think this is an accurate statement. Some of the audis are recommended, and some are not. I didn't see anything(maybe it's new) saying that the a4 is more reliable than a 3.

    dave
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    "The reason it's "news" is because basically all magazines are biased. "

    Eg, they didnt' pick my car first, so they have to be biased.

    I think the refs in the game last night were biased as well. :)

    dave
  • raln48raln48 Posts: 32
    "I don't think this is an accurate statement. Some of the audis are recommended, and some are not. I didn't see anything(maybe it's new) saying that the a4 is more reliable than a 3."

    I am specifically commenting on the A4 as is reflected in the title of the message.
    Perhaps there is another authority that publishes reliability ratings. My reference is specific to Consumer Reports. If you check it out, you'll be able to confirm that the A4 is recommended, and the 3-series BMW is not.
    The 3-series was recommended in the past, but lost that status based on reliability issues.
    This is an accurate statement which I'm certain with little trouble you'll be able to verify.
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    Last i saw was "too new to rate" but that was a few months ago.

    Next time i'm in the bookstore, i'll try to get the newest info.

    dave
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    "Eg, they didnt' pick my car first, so they have to be biased."

    I don't own an A4. The 3 Series is a marvelous sedan, the sportiest in its class.

    You really didn't quote enough of my post to make fun of me- I backed up that statement in the paragraphs after that.

    Almost all magazines comparing the 3 Series to others walk in with the notion that the 3 will be better. The fact that the A4 beat it is a surprise for journalists to do.
  • raln48raln48 Posts: 32
    I need to correct what I posted previously about the 3-series. The winter issue of the CR new car guide, the 2006 3-series (E90) is recommended.
  • . . .of us are biased. When there are statistics, at least it is possible to say "the Rolls Kinhardly" has a zero to 60 time of a fortnight and if that metric is key (to you) use it in your evaluation of your purchase.

    I do NOT think, for certain, that the car magazines are biased so overwhelmingly to one versus the other make or model.

    But I also do not think they are bias free, not at all.

    The test wherein the Audi A4 SLine quattro 2.0T aced out a Subaru and a BMW 325xi appears as if it could've gone Subaru, Audi and BMW. But otherwise it seems like the BMW was destined to be in third place based on the numeric scores AND the bias (which, theoretically should or could have been in favor of the BMW.)

    Remember the BMW was a 325xi, not the 330, remember that BMW doesn't have the AWD experience Audi has.

    Remember the scores despite the third place showing for BMW were close, it is just that the Subaru and Audi were closer to each other than the BMW was to both of them.

    Next time, next year, next version, whatever, the BMW or the Subaru or some other brand will win. This in no way means that the BMW is not, in the US anyway, very highly regarded or that it has slipped.

    If anything this may mean that the Audi is improving, maybe it means that Audi has actually elected to bring a sporting model to the US while BMW, in their X drive cars, has not elected to make them sporting.

    SLine includes a sport suspension set up.

    BMW's sport package option on the X drive has nothing to do with performance insofar as I can tell by using the configurator on BMWUSA.COM.

    Would the test have been more fair, if a non SLine Audi would have been selected?

    Was this rigged?

    A: I don't know and I seriously doubt it.

    Were I BMW, though, I would pause a moment to reconsider a sport tuning option for my US bound BMW X drive equipped cars.

    But, as usual, BMW (nor Audi) didn't consult with me.

    Wonder what the results would be with an Audi A4 3.2 vs a BMW 330xi? One thing, it would probably make for great discussions. :surprise:
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    I saw the road & track in question (as well as consumer reports, but reciting that is noe unnecessary).

    BMW, it seems, has made a conscious decision to not "sport up" its AWD cars, apparently assuming that the owners are already not placing a priority on sporty driving, as RWD is already available at a lower price. Additionally, they don't seem to have the steering feel worked out in the case of AWD either.

    This may be a "profitable" decision but the relatively poor placing in tests may translate to a poorer impression of its non-awd cars, their bread & butter.

    If i was focused on AWD, i probably wouldn't consider a 3-series. My interest in AWD extends to cars that are very nice but would otherwise be "saddled" with FWD. For example, the s60R wouldn't make it as a FWD.

    Well, this is threatening to get off-topic. ;)
  • First, thanks to all who responed to my earlier question (re: advice). The info was quite helpful.

    I was curious if anyone had advance word on what Audi might be doing for next year's model, which I assume arrives late summer this year. With the redesigned 3-series and Lexus IS already on the streets, and with the A4 full redesign still years away, I was thinking Audi might try sweetening the pot with their 07 A4 to maintain competitiveness. The others seem to offer quite a bit for the money.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    "Additionally, they don't seem to have the steering feel worked out in the case of AWD either."

    Actually, this isn't a direct quote, but the article blatantly stated that the 3 had, "spot-on steering," as usual.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    And yet, the 325 beat the IS250.

    Granted, it's not that big a catastrophe that the Lexus had more options.

    There's nothing to grudge against if you're a BMW fan in this article.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Have they compared those two? It was 330i vs. IS350 in this case.

    Any comparison should use the same transmission, so the 330i should have been an automatic.

    If they wanted to test manuals, it should have been 325i vs. IS250.

    Apples to apples. Otherwise we can simply conclude that Autoweek prefers manual transmissions (not necessarily the car).

    -juice
  • potemkinpotemkin Posts: 196
    "Any comparison should use the same transmission, so the 330i should have been an automatic."

    Why should BMW be punished for Toyota's failure to properly equip their car? Really, who's fault is that? The folks in Munich didn't do anything to prevent Toyota from dropping a manual in the IS350. This isn't bowling. Handicapping BMW isn't going to make the IS any better a car.

    "Apples to apples."

    So if one apple has a worm in it, you have to put a worm in the other apple?

    Heck, even M-B offers a manual in their C-Class even though they sell very few of them.

    P.S.: M-B's manual is better than both Toyota's and BMW's.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    If that was so important, then test the IS250 and 325i, which I already suggested.

    Most people buy automatics, 93% in this market, even though I'm not in that group, I still think they'd be doing a bigger service to the public to test models that are similarly equipped.

    They basically handicapped Lexus by not choosing similar models that offer manual transmissions. More comparable, basically. You say Lexus handicapped themselves, OK, fair enough, but...

    Your worm analogy is flawed.

    The Lexus was quicker and lot more fuel efficient, a massive difference of +6mpg. If anything the BMW apple had the worm.

    Or maybe the Lexus apple was candy-coated. :shades:

    -juice
  • potemkinpotemkin Posts: 196
    "Your worm analogy is flawed... If anything the BMW apple had the worm."

    Where did I say which one had the worm?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It sure seemed implied.

    You said they'd have to handicap the BMW, as if an auto transmission were a disease. :D

    Don't get me wrong, I'm a fan of manuals, all 3 of the cars in our fleet are equipped as such.

    -juice
  • potemkinpotemkin Posts: 196
    Implied? Pretty sure it's not. *re-reads post.* Nope, not implied.

    For the record, I happen to like the IS, but I do consider their decision to produce the IS350 without an available manual to be a blunder on their part. I probably would be driving an IS300 right now had the Lexus dealer not questioned my sanity when I inquired as to the availability of a stick shift.

    I wouldn't call it a disease, just a defect. And the sloptronic is a handicap.
  • agree with Juice but you definatly implied that the Lexus had the worm. In your last post you switched from worm, to handicaped. Now both of you got me screwed up cause here I am defending Lexus.
    I see your point about not handicaping the bimmer because Lexus can't make the proper tranny. The problem is, that tranny is seemingly a figment of the average consumers imagination.
    The issue in my mind however is, why would Edmunds refuse to do a comparo against an auto Audi 3.2, but will gladly do it with Lexus?
    PS Honda's manual is better than them all.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I thought I was crazy there for a second. :P

    the sloptronic is a handicap

    Tell that to the test measuring equipment, which in fact observed the Lexus kicking some BMW tail big-time.

    -juice
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    Try the Audi S4's automatic- or better yet, the new Jag XK one.

    Best on the market.
  • jpr18jpr18 Posts: 5
    The Jaguar XK has a MUCH better tranny than the S4. Ugh! I'd take an Aveo over the S4 anyday. The new Aveo looks SOOO cool, No? I wish they offer a 4.3 V8 and AWD soon. If they did it would blow away a ML63 AMG!! I would keep the standard cloth seats, though. I think they look cool.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    "The Jaguar XK has a MUCH better tranny than the S4. Ugh! I'd take an Aveo over the S4 anyday."

    Excuse me?

    In Motor Trend November 2004, there was an article with the S4 sedan. The author stated that, "The S4 has one of the most smooth transmissions ever tested." Is this proof that the S4 has a darn good transmission? I believe it's a ZF 6-Speed.

    And, on the Aveo quote, I hope you were joking. That says that you have serious problems.
  • jpr18jpr18 Posts: 5
    How dare You! The new Aveo is perfectly fine! Does the S4 cabriolet have an available power sliding sunroof? NO! Does it have an iPod audio jack? NO! Does the S4 have clear lens tailights? NO! does it have the gold bowtie on the grille? NO! Does it have a 103 hp 4 cylinder engine that gets 35 mpg? I don't think so. Clearly, the Aveo is a much better vehicle.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    "Does the S4 cabriolet have an available power sliding sunroof? NO! Does it have an iPod audio jack? NO! Does the S4 have clear lens taillights? NO! does it have the gold bowtie on the grille? NO! Does it have a 103 hp 4 cylinder engine that gets 35 mpg? I don't think so. Clearly, the Aveo is a much better vehicle."

    So much to fix, so much...

    The reason the S4 Cabriolet does not have a power sliding sunroof is because it is a CONVERTIBLE. The only convertibles whose tops emulate sunroofs are the Mini Cooper Convertible and the new Volkswagen Eos, which actually has one in its hard top.

    Actually, the S4 Cabriolet does have iPod capability if you have the optional NAV system in it. There is a button which flips the screen down, revealing space for an iPod connector and a DVD player.

    The S4 does not have clear lens taillights because they do not look the least elegant. The S4 is an elegant automobile, and, (besides the Lexus RX- that looks good) clear lenses make it look juvenile.

    Next, the S4 Cabriolet does not have the gold bowtie because it has the four rings. Audi's logo is much more prestigious and more associated with quality than any Chevy sign, no matter what car it is attached to.

    The S4 doesn't have a 103 hp 4-cylinder engine because that's just pathetic. The S4's engine is more than twice that size and has more than three times more horsepower! Also, 35 mpg is not impressive for that size engine. The new Toyota Yaris gets 45 mpg, and it has only 4 less horsepower.

    I have stated my case.
  • jpr18jpr18 Posts: 5
    I disagree
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    I seriously hope you're joking, and have been the whole time!

    There are many Audi enthusiasts on this forum, and they wouldn't be pleased with you to hear that you like the Aveo better than the S4. :mad:
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    Can't ya take a joke?
  • patpat Posts: 10,421
    Welllll ... it really isn't clear whether the poster is joking or not, especially since these are the only posts he/she has made. But it is a joke to put the Aveo in this category, that's for sure! ;)
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    * it's cheap
    * if it's stolen, it's cheap to replace
    * noone wants to steal it anyway, so it won't get stolen
    * noone will ask you to borrow money
    * you will look "ghetto fab" if you get fake chrome spinners

    :D
  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    And i can understand "cheap is good." I'm glad the GF decided the scion TC is adorable, and she doesn't want a monster ford truck anymore(whew!).

    I sat in the s4 at the autoshow, and was a bit taken aback that it's 57K, but it is of course a nice car. The rs4 was there as well.

    Sat in the s60R. If carsdirect is to be beleived and it can be gotten for 33-35K, it's a great deal, feature-wise, though i didn't like the cabin that much.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    I know it's a joke! JPR18 and I know each other very well and we were making cracks at each other on purpose. (The Aveo thing was masterful- I wonder if it made a stir in anyone?)
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    If you think the S4 Cabriolet is expensive (the Sedan starts at $47K, it's the convertible with the Auto that starts at $56K), look at the Benz CLK55 AMG. For anyone who says it's not, it is a direct competitor to the $58K M3 convertible and the $56K S4 Cabriolet, and it starts at... drum roll...

    $83,000. How Mercedes.
  • potemkinpotemkin Posts: 196
    "Tell that to the test measuring equipment,..."

    Okay.

    Dear measuring equipment,

    The sloptronic is a lame excuse for a transmission no matter how many silly modes BMW includes.

    "...which in fact observed the Lexus kicking some BMW tail big-time."

    Well, as long as that BMW has a sloptronic, I'm not surprised.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    :D

    Did the equipment hear you? ;)

    Found this interesting - Autoweek did a poll about that review, and readers chose the Lexus IS over the 3 series, by a pretty wide margin (57% IS, 35.3% BMW, 7.7% tossup).

    Autoweek subscribers are definitely the demographic they target (readers own an average of 5+ cars).

    -juice
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    Well, then you would be surprised to know that an IS350 with a "sloptronic" is significantly quicker than a 330i with a manual.

    I'm not a die-hard Lexus fan, but that's the truth.

    ;)
  • u2jrmwu2jrmw Posts: 14
    The first thing Audi are doing for 07 is dropping the included maintenance.
  • For the $550 premium, Audi, IMHO, should've buried it in the price of the car and not let us get in such a huff here.

    I think this is a blunder. And, there is no reason for it, the dollars aren't all that much in the overall scheme.

    Why not just keep it like it is and add a bit more to the MSRP. As long as Audis have the AA, there is at least a chance they will have even better and improving residuals which of course will keep them competitive.

    I am an Audi fan -- but I swear, they keep frittering away the perks -- two years too early in their turnaround.
  • potemkinpotemkin Posts: 196
    The Lexus doesn't have a "Sloptronic". If I'm not mistaken, "Sloptronic" is copyrighted by BMW. Any references I've made to "sloptronic" refer to the automatic transmission BMW foists on their customers.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    You seem to have trouble with the sense of the messages.

    They gave me the message that you were a Lexus hater, hating the IS's new Auto transmission.
  • potemkinpotemkin Posts: 196
    Steptronic is a registered trade name for BMW's automatic transmission. Sloptronic is an intentionally derogatory misspelling of "steptronic".

    I like Lexus. I liked the IS300 enough that I almost bought one. I like the IS250 and wouldn't have a problem owning one. The IS350 (like all cars without an available stick shift) is dead to me. In fact, "Cars without an available manual transmission" are at the very top of my "Dead to me" list.

    Last year these forums went 'round and 'round with the G35 aficionados insisting that 0-60 was the entire extent of performance measurement and that made the G35 the new benchmark in performance sedans. Now we're doing it all again.
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Posts: 200
    Not all G35 aficionados are that concerned with 0-60 only :surprise: I happened to like the awd of the X variety, and the bang for the buck that Infiniti offered over BMW.

    On the hilly icy roads I drive in winter, the advantages of awd trumped my/your concerns for a manual transmission.

    In 12k miles of ownership I have been mighty pleased with the Infiniti. Haven't had to visit the dealer yet. The car has been "all that" at least for me...
  • potemkinpotemkin Posts: 196
    The G35 was the other car I was looking at buying. Very pretty from the back and sides. Though, I guess I'm too old to enjoy driving a car that goes "bang".

    What? Can't get a G35 with AWD and manual transmission? Bummer. Guess that's to be expected from a car company that spell its own name.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    Actually, I realized this last year.

    The G35 really doesn't have much bang-for-the-buck over the 330. Its price only undercuts it by about $2,000, which makes it seem almost overpriced because of its poor build quality.

    I'm not saying the 330 has a nice interior, though :P.

    (;
  • mnrep2mnrep2 Posts: 200
    The G35 really doesn't have much bang-for-the-buck over the 330. Its price only undercuts it by about $2,000, which makes it seem almost overpriced because of its poor build quality.

    BMW 330xi edmunds tmv price $37,274

    G35X edmunds tmv price $33,250
    If you look at edmumds true cost to own over 5 years they show the G35x to have another $8,000.00 in saving over the 330xi.

    Your math is bad but your comments are compelling ;)
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    I didn't specify that the G35X was less, mnre. The normal G35 is only $2-$3K less than a comparably equipped 330i.

    Edmunds "True Cost To Own," and their True Market Value pricing, are not always valid. I've seen cars $2500 over invoice on TMV there, and it was only about $600 over at the dealer.

    ;)
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    Just in from a few exclusive gossip websites...

    Audi has released teaser photos of the new RS4 Avant and RS4 CABRIOLET, to be released at Geneva.

    The Cabriolet, which has the updated body, is strikingly beautiful in the one photo I saw. It has the 420hp engine, gets 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, and should be in the mid-70s, making it a steal next to the Mercedes-Benz CLK55 AMG convertible.

    I was drooling- and this is from an S4 Cabriolet owner. If I play my cards right and can afford one by 2008, it's on the top of my list!!!

    ;)
  • Ummm I seriously doubt it's going to be in the mid-70s for the cabriolet model considering the regular RS4 sedan will be in that price range. I also don't think it's going to be running 4.8 0-60 considering the additional weight gain over the sedan.
  • bdr127bdr127 Posts: 950
    Edmunds "True Cost To Own," and their True Market Value pricing, are not always valid. I've seen cars $2500 over invoice on TMV there, and it was only about $600 over at the dealer.

    I've also seen some True Cost To Own listings were it looks like the car must be really loaded up (i.e. $4-5k over MSRP), yet another car listed below MSRP.... not exact an apples-to-apples comparison.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    I just realized how odd that would be... it's actually going to be in the high-70s-- the Avant in the mid, and the sedan in the low $70,000s.

    The RS4 Sedan won't be in "that price range." It is rumored to start at around $70,000 flat.

    Also, the RS4 Cabriolet gets 0-60 in 4.8 seconds, somehow the same as the sedan (Actually, Audi is usually very modest about 0-60 times. The RS4 Sedan should be in the mid-4 second range). This is not all random information that I've thought up, it's actually from an Audi insider.
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