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Ultimate AWD Sports Sedans



  • mdidmdid Posts: 13
    "The new A4 is already out, the 3.2, and it has the same price if not like $100 more than the old one. BTW, the 2.0t is in the T5's class, not the V6. The 3.2 A4 is much faster than an S40. "

    Audi is claiming 6.5 seconds 0-60 for the new A4 3.2. This is comparable to the S40 T5 AWD, except that the Audi outweighs my S40 by a full 500 pounds. Seems to me they are in the same class and it wouldn't surprise me if the S40 outhandled the Audi in the curves. Have any of the mags road tested the new Audi?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    They are hurting, April and year-to-date sales have thus far been a disaster. I don't think people are taking to the new face.

    Gimme a left over previous generation S4 over the new one.

  • nwalbertnwalbert Posts: 49

    I just happened to stumble into this forum looking for info/opinions on when the 32xi might be available, and I ran across this thread and had to comment.

    No offense, but you don't seem very realistic. You seem awfully bent on proving that Volvo's are something they are not.

    To be the ultimte sports car, requires a lot of differant things. Performance, Style, Desirability, etc.

    No one ever grew up saying "I want to own a Volvo when I grow up". They are just not in the same class as BMW and Audi. Are the others overpriced for what you get, damn right. Same as the best restaurants in the world, and designer clothes.

    Volvo's are fine cars, but they compete in the bracket with Subaru's, and Honda's, not in the upper echilon. Not to mention they are not very nice to look at.

    In fact I would put Subaru in this bracket WAY ahead of Volvo. The WRX Sti is a mean machine, and the Legacy GT Limited is a pretty nice car too. If they bring the Spec-B to North America, I think it would have to be close to the top of the list.

    Anyway, didnt mean to ramble, but be realistsic, a Volvo doesnt leave you grinning from ear to ear after driving it, a 330i will!!!

    Your comparing Louis Vuitton to Ralph Lauren. Nothing wrong with Ralph Lauren, but its pretty average without much desirabilty.

  • tiger10tiger10 Posts: 46
    i dont see much talking about subarus
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    That's because the STi was nominated and noone dared to challenge it. :P

    Basically it qualified with little/no contention, while the Audi and Volvo folks battled it out over each other's offerings.

  • dhanleydhanley Posts: 1,531
    I think the skyline and lancer evo fans might challenge the STI.
  • krzysskrzyss Posts: 848
    Bentley as most ultimate AWD sedan.

  • they are all great cars, but you could argue until the new models come about the pros/cons. talk about nuts and bolts already.
  • nodecafnodecaf Posts: 2
    While only few people may have grown up wanting to own a Volvo (I was far more into Porsche and Austin in my younger days), things do change. Mercedes brand lost a lot of luster in the past few years, as has Cadillac. It's all relative after all, and you're entitled to your opinion, no matter how uninformed it may be :) If driving S60R doesn't leave you grinning from ear to ear, then you definitely need to have your adrenaline and dopamine production checked.
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    Of COURSE an A8 can't run with an S60R! But an S4 is very much quicker than an S60R. That was a very brave quote, saying that not even RS models can compete with that. I mean, the RS4 has a 'modest' 420hp 4.2 litre FSI V8, carbon fiber and alluminum body panels, a very cool bodykit, and amazing ten-spoke tinted wheels. And it's only $30K more than an S60R! LOL!
  • esfesf Posts: 1,020
    Everyone is right. You are definitely trying to prove something of Volvo that it's not. Volvo was not meant for performance; Volvo is a family sedan with a bit of fun thrown in. Audi is a luxury sports saloon meant for the big boys, BMW is a true athlete for someone who knows how to drive, Mercedes is the fat cat executive's ultimate luxury sedan. Volvo, although nice, is not any of this. I love Volvo as a rental car (not to be rude- they're very easy to have on a vacation), but I would be completely emotionally deprived if I stepped out of my S4 into an S60R or S40 T5. And of course an S40 T5 can out-drag an A6 3.2, the A6 3.2 is practically twice as big. But the A6 is FASTER, there's a difference there.

    That's completely off-topic. The S40 T5 does 0-60 in about 7.2 secs, the A4 3.2 does it in 6.3.

    And the A4 2.0T is not comparable to the S40 T5, the S40 is slightly more powerful and is smaller. Also, the 3.2 is the flagship A4 as the T5 is to the S40.
  • I have 04 ML 350 and I am getting rid of it(hunka-junk) should I buy an S60 R To replace it? Also, Had a Lincoln Avaitor(2WD) and it was totalled this past weekend. I am thinking I am going to go completely Volvo. XC90- V8 and an S60 R, any incites?
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I would research reliability and quality ratings for the new cars you buy. Volvo ain't bad, but they're certainly not near the top either. That's if reliability is a priority for you (since you're coming out of a hunka-junk).

    A lot of the Subaru Crew guys came out of Volvos for that very reason. Check out a 2006 Legacy GT Limited w/NAV, they're a good value. CR named Subaru the most reliable brand for MY2004.

    I really like the XC90, maybe get one of each to hedge your bets. If you get 2 Volvos and you don't like the dealer, you're sorta stuck.

  • I am going to buy a new S4 this week. Can't decide between the avant and sedan. Don't need a wagon (already have an SUV) but think the avant might look better and hold its resale. I am currently driving a BMW 540i sedan so going the extra door is a big step!
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    It looks just as good, and is more practical. Sure you have an SUV, but if there are two drivers that means one of you will always have less practical space in a sedan.

  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
    I replied to you over in the S4 thread in coupes, David. [edit: I just realized they're linked! D'oh!]

    Avant. It's the way I'm going if I decide on the S4. No two ways it looks better, has more utility, and is a better balanced package than its sedan counterpart. Most wagons are closer to the vaunted 50/50, thanks to the extra structural pounds in the butt. You'll give up a hair of 0-60 (hardly noticeable with a 4.2), but gain in the handling department.

    Honestly, there are good reasons why estates outsell saloons (I believe) so well in Europe...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I got to take a road trip from DC to Philly and back in an S4 Cabrio, that V8 really pulls nicely at any rpm. Sweet motor.

    MMI is awful, though, easily the weak spot in that car. The NAV is so cumbersome to use that I think I'd actually buy a 2nd portable unit and use that instead. Took us 15 minutes at times to find certain addresses.

    If you have a choice, consider passing on MMI.

  • Rather than incur the expense of a nav system, a paper map and cellphone get me anywhere I need to be. Think I have the N/S/E/W thing in hand, so the nav systems in most of these cars are little more than expensive annoyances... IMO, of course :)
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
    I'd have agreed fully with that sentiment three years ago when I first bought a car with a NAV. I have found it truly useful maybe twice on the road. A big part of that, however, is operational. Mine is a built-in operated by a joystick, and in order to enter an address, a "keyboard" screen is used, and that's an annoyance. Also, for good reason, no data can be entered while the car is in motion. Not much use if you're en route on a crowded freeway in unfamiliar surroundings and are looking for something in particular.

    As the things have become voice-operated now, for the most part, they finally make sense. More like actually having a navigator to help out. I find them useful only in unexpected situations, though. Generally, if I know where I need to get to before I leave, I can always Google Map it ahead of time. And locally, a recent Thomas Bros. guide is a whole lot less expensive...
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    I used to feel the same way, so I can totally relate to what you're saying.

    But check the NAV thread, there's a lot more to it than that. It estimates time of arrival down to the minute, so you know when you'll get there.

    There are millioins of points-of-interest loaded in the database, so we could not only find food (2 Dennys in Annapolis MD) but also find out how far they are from the highway to save time, and you could even call in advance to see if a restaraunt is open, has a wait, or needs reservations, because it stores the phone numbers.

    Another situation where it came in handy - we went to OC SunFest, and the parking lot at the board walk was closed. Most people were driving 30 blocks to the convention center and then taking a bus back. I found all the parking lots sorted by distance, called a few, found a spot, and saved both time and money. You could not have driven around to find all those parking lots, either.

    There's more to it than you think, it's not just directions, not by a long shot.

  • I bought the sedan - black with RS6 wheels and adaptive lights - fantastic. Still has a huge boot if I need to carry anything, and looks and feels great
  • I am currently a S60R owner and it is a lot of fun to drive. I never enjoyed driving in the rain or bad conditions so much. The fact that is a Volvo makes me feel much secure in case of a "problem". The only problem I have with it is that it is not a convertible, and living in Texas the weather almost demands a covertible. Mine S60R is not for sell so I can get the convertible:). If your are interested in a great black 04 S60R, let me know.
  • wale_bate1wale_bate1 Posts: 1,986
  • Hey, where did u go to school in maine? i have dealt a lot with audi quattros and i have a A4 quattro, and my mom has a S6, (including the locking differentials) and they seem to me to be the best quattro awd system i have ever encountered, as you said they are a lot lower to the ground, and will grip to slippery conditions even without snow tires a lot better than any subaru i have ever driven. no disrespect i was just making my point
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    A torsen is better for track/dry conditions, but no way is it better on ice and snow.

    Torsens have what's called a torque bias ratio. For Quattro, that ratio is 2 to 1. So it can send 67% of power to one axle, 33% to the other.

    Here's a technical explanation of a Torque Sensing differential:

    And the relevant excerpt:

    if one set of wheels loses traction completely, the Torsen differential will be unable to supply any torque to the other set of wheels. The bias ratio determines how much torque can be transferred, and five times zero is zero

    That example was assuming a torque bias ratio of 5 to 1, but with Audi's 2 to 1 the results are the same. 2 times 0 still equals zero. The Torsen is completley useless in zero friction conditions like ice.

    That's why Audi has long relied on traction control, i.e. to compensate for Quattro's shortcoming.

    On a *dry* track, a Torsen is superior.

  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    By the way, I'm not saying you didn't experience better traction, but if you did, it was likely the tires you were riding on, which is the biggest factor (not the AWD type).

  • I have read with amusement and a little disappointment the responses to which car is better, noting alot of emotion rather than appreciation for differences in opinion. Ok, enough of the "now kids, you behave" routine.

    I got to this forum precisely because the interior of the S60R grabbed my attention. And while I've always felt Audi did the best interior in the business, my opinion was more on materials than an actual sense of artistic vision. I have owned audis, mercedes, bmws and japanese cars but never a volvo. Like many of you on this forum, I always considered volvos to be on the boring side.

    After reading all the reviews on the S60R I am very interested in this vehicle. I am a performance nut, but I can't stand paying about 20k more than I think I should for it. I love german handling but much (not most) of their offerings' prices are based on buyers caring about about what others think of them owning such an expensive and trendy automobile. Hey, we're human! I guess we all care somewhat, it's just that I don't care as much as most other luxury car buyers.

    So, interior is pretty sweet. I like the flowing lines and hope the materials are nice enough to be acceptable. The exterior is not bad, nice and flowing (incredible for a volvo). Performance seems to be very good for the price. No one can disrespect it unless it's from an emotional perspective. The only things I worry about, and a test drive will decide one of them, are whether or not there appears to be too much FWD bias through the corners for my liking, and whether or not with all the toys it has it will be a service nightmare down the road.

    So to conclude: Audis, BMWs, Mercedes are all great and beautiful cars, but you simply don't get all that you pay for (I love them, I can afford them, but choose not to for my next vehicle). Japanese cars at the price point we are talking (I currently own a g35 coupe) get the job done, but feel like high performance economy cars. The new M may have changed all that, however. Finally, if the S60R is all the mags say it is, then I want it, pure and simple, and personally would love to see Volvo step away from its bland heritage and rise to the be among the top of the heap. I loved Infiniti's resurrection and would be happy if all the car brands that lacked were able to turn things around. Blind loyalty is for the ignorant. Loyalty is continuously earned. Think about that when you plan for the next ride...

    Thanks for reading.
  • ateixeiraateixeira Posts: 72,587
    Much as like them (the Haldex is IMO the best part-time AWD system on the market), those are quite a bit heavy to be a sports sedan.

  • lovemyclklovemyclk Posts: 351
    Just wondering if you apply the same reasoning to other purchases... whether home electronics, suits, shoes or anything else for that matter? It isn't just about price, as any Rolex owner will tell you. My Submariner won't keep better time than a Seiko!

    Hope you enjoy your Volvo. Whether I got what I paid for in my 2003 530SP is up to me, and I believe I am still reaping the rewards of owning this vehicle. Would be nice for the Scandinavian brands to elevate themselves in the minds of the traditional LPS buyer, as I've owned a Saab and loved it ('95 900SE Turbo Coupe). Just keep blandness away and focus on what makes the brand work, something I fear Saab has fallen victim to.

    If you are prepared to love the S60R, you'll probably never regret the decision. Most cars in this space are "ownership-worthy", IMO :)
  • amm2amm2 Posts: 12
    I currently own a 92 Acura Integra RS manual with 267,000 miles. Am looking for more snowworthy car for both New England winters. I don't necessarily need the sportiness as much as the great handling and steering. Would rather go to automatic at this point in life. Was considering small suv such as HOnda CRV or Suburu Forester, but have not been in to test drive. Would I be better off with a used Suburu Legacy sedan/wagon (will be transporting college student stuff)? I was concerned after reading about the head gasket problem with Suburu's. Will look at any car that can approach the Acura quality and still give me the good ride in snow. Do not want large SUV for economy reasons and may go to used for property tax reasons.
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