Buick Lucerne

evandro

Yet, JD Power only considers the date of purchase, not the miles. Therefore, I've always wondered if Buick floated to the top ahead of similar GM models made in the same plants because its typical customers put very few miles on them.

johnclineii

Then something is wrong. Same engine, same car, an 00 Impala LS, I regularly got 15-17 in town and more than 30 mpg on the highway the entire 173,000+ miles I owned that car.

If I were getting such low mileage from a 3800 engine, I'd have it checked out.

Even the 98 Pontiac Grand Prix GTP with the supercharged 3800 I had got 14-16 in town and about 26-28 on the road...

batista

Your ex-Impala gets the same fuel economy as mine. You state 15-17 in town and I wrote 15 in the city during the winter months and 17 mpg during the summer months. My car is driven only in the city so I don't know what my highway fuel efficiency may be. I don't believe the EPA figures are very accurate. I have read that highway figures are more likely to be accurate than city.

johnclineii

I see. I wrongly interpreted that as being city/highway mileage!

Thanks for the clarification!

johnclineii

GM hears you. A six speed is on the way. But the car couldn't wait til the tranny was ready...

evandro

And it's not unheard of, as in the case of our beloved Intrigue, which only got its exclusive 3.5 V6 in the 2nd model-year, phasing the 3.8 V6 out in a year.

Happy New Year, y'all.

kcwolfpack59

Impressive. It is quiet and has a good quality feel, just like everyone says. Had the 18" wheels and the ride was not as smooth as the Lesabre with the 16s, but that was the only downside, if you want to call it that. Interior was roomier than the Lesabre, even with the front seat pushed back all the way.

1487

I assume a 6 speed with a high torque limit will be available for the DTS/Lucerne in the future, but one hasnt been announced yet. GM has quite a few FWD sedans that could use such a tranny. I think the GM/Ford 6 speed will be used in more than the Aura since Ford is planning to put it in at least two products next year.

sls002

The Aura may be an early 2007 model, so the six speed may be available on the Aura first and then other 2007 models in the Fall of 2006. They will not make the six speed standard on all 2007 models. It may be standard by 2010.

rockylee

The Lucerne will get a 6 speed automatic either 2007 or 2008 from what I'm hearing. GM has plans to produce over 3 million 6 speed autos by 2010 As far as VVT, I'm not sure why it didn't make it to the Lucerne. Perhaps this will be done in the next few years. The plan is for the Lucerne to go to RWD with a possible All Wheel Drive version according to a friend of mine. The DTS will also go to RWD with a AWD variant. Thank God, I'm sick of the 4 speed autos and FWD on premium cars.

Rocky

sls002

The RWD platform will be new. By 2010 the Lucerne/DTS platform may be replaced by the RWD platform. The VVT northstar is a RWD northstar. To what extent the VVT requires major changes to the engine is not clear to me, my guess is that it is not a simple matter of bolting something on.

rake2

I've had mine over 4 weeks and have yet to see another one on the road.

cbar34

I keep hearing about a 6-spd auto for the V-8 Lucerne. Does anyone know for sure that this tranny will be available for the 2007 model year? I really like this car but the real drawback for me is the antique 4-spd. If it's going to be on the 2007's I will buy one!!

Bob

rayainsw

Latest FWD Northstar, as used in the Lucerne, is rated at 275 \ 295 = HP \ TQ [[ Designation: LD8 ]].

The published ratings from GM for the A6 FWD (6T70) are 315 \ 280 = HP \ TQ.

Thus, based on the Torque of this V8, this version of the trans. would not appear compatible with the Lucerne.

So – the real question (I think) is whether or not GM will release a 6T80 version – for higher torque applications.

The other possibility (I suppose) is a revised (a.k.a. Torque limited) version of the Northstar – retuned to match the 6T70’s limits.

AFAIK, GM has not officially announced a 6T80 . .

It seems to me that unless Buick does decide to aggressively go after non-traditional Buick customers (with something like a Lucerne GS, for example – something that I might be interested in) they have little incentive to go beyond the ‘antique 4-spd.’. It appears to me that most traditional Buick customers will likely not care how many speeds the trans. has. Thus the development costs & production expense associated with bringing an A6 to market may not appear worth the $$s and the trouble.
- Ray
Curious to see what happens here . .

62vetteefp

The other possibility (I suppose) is a revised (a.k.a. Torque limited) version of the Northstar – retuned to match the 6T70’s limits.

Did this with the supercharged Regal GS thru the powertrain computer-easy to do.

evandro

Easy, but then power may suffer...

sls002

Usually, but not always, GM does not make changes after a vehicle goes into production. The CTS is an example of one that got a new engine after introduction, however, that change was expected.

I would be very surprised to see any changes to the Lucerne before the 2009 model year. I expect the 3800 to remain the base engine along with the rest of the powertrain (engines/transmissions).

vanman1

I would not be surprised to see the 3800 gone after this year. Production is almost done, the engine will be retired. I can see the 3900 or the Caddy 3.6 replacing it with a 6 speed auto. 3800/4 speed seems to be one of the only complaints I see in reviews.

bunky36

Somebody enlighten me, please. What would an A6 add to the Northstar Lucerne driving experience that the A4 doesn't have other than the obvious price and two extra gears? I drive a Northstar Bonneville GXP with an A4 that I find entirely satisfactory for my driving style. If my GXP had an A6 in it, what would I be experiencing that I'm not experiencing now? I would hope there would be more benefits to the driving experience than just bragging rights.

fin

A 5 speed would add several things, bunky36...
First, it would fulfill the "expectation" that a car in this sedan category today has 5 forward gears (even if 5th is overdrive).
Second, the 0 to 70 times (approx) would improve slightly and be closer to the competition. This is meaningful to some potential buyers.
Third, the gas mileage would probably go up a little.
Fourth, the transmission would probably last longer if it were properly designed. Even with the extra shift and gears the load distribution would probably be make a longer life cycle.
To the average Lucerne shopper, #1 is probably the most important. And that is the same possible buyer who will accept the outdated V6 as a standard engine and be content.

sls002

The 4 speed automatic you have gives you 4 basic gears: a low gear to start off in; a passing gear; and two driving gears, 3rd gear is good for up to say 50 MPH, while overdrive is better for highway cruising. These gears are all spaced far apart. A six speed transmission will add a lower first gear, and a higher overdrive and will space the gears closer together. A 4 speed automatic can be engineered with two planetary gear sets. A six speed will require one additional planetary set. A 5 speed also requires 3 planetary gearsets, so six speeds makes far more sense.

imidazol97

Are 6-speed with more parts more prone to failure? Do they have the same long life of the 4T65E with 4 speeds in most people's driving?

rayainsw

Very generally, a good A6 vs an A4 will provide (potentially) an opportunity to deliver:

1 - a wider ratio spread between first and sixth (as SLS002 said above)

2 – a lower first gear \ higher torque multiplication can provide better take-off & associated feel.

3 – a higher (lower RPM) top / sixth gear can provide lower noise and wear and better MPG, if all other things remain roughly equal.

4 – the steps between gears can also be closed somewhat – such that gear to gear RPM drop is less – and transitions more nearly ‘seamless’.

The A6 would typically (ironically) help the lower displacement and ‘torque challenged’ motors more than one with a relatively broad, flat torque curve. The supercharged 3800, for example, has a relatively flat TQ curve, and generates good torque from low rpm. The A4s (4T65E as in the GPs and 4T80 as in the Lucerne) have a reasonably wide ratio spread already – and the torque generated (similarly with my 5.3L V8) tends to largely offset having only 4 gears to choose from.

Additionally, the newer 5 and 6 speed automatic trans. design features ** should ** allow for smoother and quicker (more efficient) shifts. And (one hopes) that they will have been engineered to be more reliable.

“3rd gear is good for up to say 50” – SLS002

Well – I am not exactly certain what you mean here by ‘good for’.

First, in my current GM V8 Sedan w/A4 (GP GXP), second gear is ‘good for’ up to just over 100 mph. Meaning that it will achieve that road speed before requiring an upshift to third. Since you can force it to start in second gear, the speed range for second is (ahem) pretty wide: 0 – 100. So, in that sense, I’d say that second gear is good for 0 mph to 100 mph. [ And in fact, first gear in my GXP is good for over 50 mph. ]

Third gear can be (manually) engaged in my GXP at speeds as low as 10 mph. And it will pull quite happily – though certainly not as quickly as if the trans. were in second – or even first gear. And the actual (drag limited) top speed would typically (I have not tried it) be achieved in third gear, not fourth – as the deep OD ratio in fourth will kill acceleration. In third gear, at 6,000 rpm, the GXP would be at over 150 mph.

Third gear in the Lucerne then I’d suggest ought to be ‘good for’ 10 or 15 MPH to top speed. With the gearing and HP \ TQ specs, top speed on the Lucerne, I expect would also to be achieved in third gear – not fourth. So, again, the useful range of third gear (it is likely ‘good for’) 15 or 20 mph to somewhere well north of 100 mph. [ Assuming no limiter in the PCM. ]

- Ray
Still hoping for a Lucerne Grand Sport . . .

imidazol97

Great idea.

Now that would raise the 'buzz' factor for the Lucerne.

sls002

Perhaps we should return to the days of the powerglide with one planetary gearset. The question of failure rates depend on how well the transmission is engineered and built. I see no reason to expect it to have more problems.

The northstar automatic has a 2.96:1 first gear, and a 0.68 overdrive. The overall ratio is 2.96/.68 = 4.35:1. The gear ratio averages about 1.63 from higher to lower gears. The six speed automatics are designed with an overall ratio of 6:1 or about 1.43 per gear. So the gears are closer together. Basically this means that shifting down will speed up the engine from 2000 rpms in the 4 speed to 3200 rpms while in the six speed it will go to 2800 rpms. In reality, the gears are not spaced evenly.

sls002

What I meant by 3rd being good to 50 MPH was that my Seville in 3rd gear will cruise 50 MPH at 2000 RPMs, which is a fairly reasonable speed for the engine. Above 50 MPH overdrive will be more fuel efficient. But I find that on hilly/mountinous roads with 50 MPH the speed limit, running in 3rd gear is better than letting the transmission try to use overdrive.

rayainsw

“running in 3rd gear is better than letting the transmission try to use overdrive.”

Aha.

As I recall, the previous (FWD) SLS & STS did not offer manumatic control of the A4 trans., so that does make sense.

One thing (of many) that I enjoy and utilize almost always is the ability to exercise some additional control over the automatic trans. shift \ don’t shift algorithms. It seems that many people do not understand that a true manumatic will allow much, much more control than simply placing a ‘normal’ automatic in third or second gear, which (typically) only locks out the gears above the one selected.

I will need to drive a V8 Lucerne at some point – one reason is that (though I have read the brochure) I am not sure exactly how much control they have engineered into this manumatic as they have implemented it in the Lucerne.

- Ray
(Trans.) control freak . .

sls002

I don't think that the Lucerne's 4T80 transmission has a manumatic mode. It should be the same transmission that I have on my 2002 Seville.

The Corvette's six speed automatic (same as Cadillac's STS_V automatic) has the following gears: 4.02:1, 2.36:1, 1.53:1, 1.15:1, 0.85:1 and 0.67:1. So the top three gears are close together. Third gear is also close to 4th actually. My Seville has the same top gear nearly at 0.68:1, but then 3rd is 1:1 and 2nd is 1.63:1. So, my 3rd is between the six speeds 4th and 5th gears, while my 2nd is a lower gear than the six speeds 3rd, although both of these gears are passing gears. On the six speed, with a 2.93:1 axle ratio, 2nd gear will go to about 65 MPH at an engine speed of about 6000 RPM's, making this gear a lower speed passing gear.

bunky36

Great A6 A4 discussion! Very informative. I'm convinced! I'll be in my Bonneville GXP for another couple years. A Lucerne V8 is on my radar. Hopefully by then it will have an A5 or A6. Better yet an A6 GS!

Bill

sls002

GM is going with six speed automatics in future vehicles. The current 5 speed automatics in the CTS, SRX, XLR and STS will probably not be used in other cars. I am not sure what 5 speed they plan for the Solstice/Sky. The question on what happens with the DTS/Lucerne depends on a number of things. If the FWD northstar powertrains are updated with a new transmission, it would probably be a six speed.

keith3

After no hits with dealer searches for what we want, we ordered a Lucerne this past week. The dealer was pretty vague about when we might expect it.

I thought that a retail sold car would have a fairly high priority but the impression he gave was that this is not true for cars like the Lucerne that are in demand. I got the impression from him that the priority is getting cars to the dealers - not on pre sold cars. Anyone out there who knows how it works or has had experience in ordering a Lucerne?

sls002

I think that a sold order will have priority over dealer orders. However, your order will be in line after other orders before yours. Your dealer should be able to monitor the status of your order.

rake2

So, what did you order?

keith3

Nothing special - 5 Passenger, CXL6, Lux. Pack, Ent. Pack, Conv. Pack. Problem was the 5 Passenger - everything within reasonable range of dealers here was 6 Passenger.

62vetteefp

I thought that a retail sold car would have a fairly high priority but the impression he gave was that this is not true for cars like the Lucerne that are in demand. I got the impression from him that the priority is getting cars to the dealers - not on pre sold cars. Anyone out there who knows how it works or has had experience in ordering a Lucerne?

When a car is first introduced there is a prescribed distributin plan which is chosen by the division. It could be diferent for any model and depends on things like time of year introduced (convertibles), etc. Probably the Lucerne is the typical plan where the dealers that ordered the greatest number of the previous model (LeSabre/Park) get the first allocations. So the bigger dealers get the first 2 or 3 or 4 depending on previous sales rate. Then it starts to spread out to the smaller dealers. Your sold order should come after this initial distribution is complete. Otherwise anyone who had a sold order would jump to the front of the line and if there were a lot of sold orders the distribution system would never work. that is why they have the allocation method in the first place.

1487

The thing everyong must remember about the Lucerne V8 is that GM does not have a 6 speed for this car, and it's possible they will never get one. If they decide to replace this car in 2009 with a RWD car they may figure it's a waste of time to develop a 6 speed auto that can handle 292lb-ft of torque. No other supplier has a FWD 6 speed capable of handling GM's high powered FWD cars at this time. If GM is working on a heavy duty 6 speed I havent heard anything about it. There is a much better chance of lucerne getting a 250hp 3.6 or 240hp 3.9L coupled to the new GM/Ford six speed. The 3.6 lacks the torque to make the Lucerne very fast, but at least you would have decent mileage and more passing power than the 3800. I would assume the lacrosse and Lucerne will see a 3.6/6A combo for 2007 or 2008 MY.

BTW, the new 3.6 that will be in the Enclave will have a reported 287hp. perhaps the Lucerne V8 will be replaced by a 287hp V6 in the future.

sls002

It is not clear how GM plans to move from their current 4 speed automatic to 6 speed automatics. Certainly, as new models are put into production, the new transmissions are easily designed into the powertrains. Current production models would need redesign of the powertrains to make use of the new transmissions, so I expect current production models to get the 6 speeds later on if ever.

With the Lucerne the issue is what happens when or if, a large RWD sedan platform is developed. We do know that the 3800 V6 production is only around till the end of the 2008 model year. I expect the Lucerne to keep the 3800 till then. But it would make sense to dump both the 3800 and the 4 speed 4T65 for a 3.6 V6 with a 6 speed automatic. If the 3.6 with 250 lb-ft of torque is used with a six speed automatic, performance might be nearly as good as the V8's.

sls002

I don't know what they do now, but back in 1994 when the 1995 Riviera was going into production, my dealer wanted to put my name on a sold order. So, I ordered one like I wanted, with the understanding that I also wanted to see the new Aurora before deciding. In any case, my understanding was that my order had priority over other dealer orders. The early production rate was very slow on the Riviera's until they got the quality up to the standard they wanted. My order finally came out of the factory after what now seems like months, only to be selected as an evaluation car. So, then my order was rerun, bumping all other orders, and my car appeared at the dealers in only about a month.

evandro

Interesting thoughts. I wonder if the limited torque capability of the FWD A6 has to do with going to RWD for more powerful applications.

rake2

I see all this discussion about lack of power, but it seems that many of you may just be speculating. I've only driven the V8, and while it's true it's not a race car, who is looking for it to be one? I also understand from people who have driven the V6 that it's faster than they expected. You guys make it sound like it's a 68 Dodge Coronet w/ a 318 in it (which I know from experience is much slower off the line). I just don't see where most drivers of cars in this class are going to be looking to be able to take a Charger SRT.

jerrymcshane1

What type of price did you get?

sls002

They have only announced one FWD six speed transmission, and that was for Saturn. We do not know what other combinations may be offered. But I think that GM is thinking about how future midsize and larger cars fit in the market place. The question is what should be RWD and what should be FWD.

I think cars like the Impala SS would be more successful as RWD's.

nextone

OK, here are a few comments from my recent Lucerne drive. I drove my grandfather's new V-6 Lucerne about 40 miles this past Saturday night. My overall impression of the car is very positive. I like the rain sensing wipers, the driving position (I'm 6-0, 220 libs.), the easy closing doors and quiet cabin. While the car does not have HID headlights, the beam projection was very good for nighttime driving with patchy fog. Buick should offer HID lighting and a Head Up Display (which I love on my 2005 Corvette).

With five adult passnegers, I noticed too frequent gear shifts. The V-6 car needs more torque. From other published reviews, it appears that the Northstar V-8 makes a very noticeable improvement that's worth the price difference and the mileage penalty. My other minor complaint is that I was not able to locate the rear defogger button. Where is it?

For reference, I am also the current and orignal owner of a 1995 Aurora V-8 (151,000 miles). I wish GM would build a sedan that would make me want to buy a new sedan--like the Aurora did. The Lucerne is just not exciting, the STS is too expensive and not as roomy, and the Impala SS is short on some critical features. The Lucerne is a good car, just not exciting to a 40 year-old male.

keith3

I honestly don't know. I traded two cars plus some GMC credit card cash and am paying $8 after taxes title and fees. That was my objective going in. It took a lot of shopping including a couple of internet tries (which were a waste of time). I'm happy. I'll be happier when the car comes.

62vetteefp

My other minor complaint is that I was not able to locate the rear defogger button. Where is it?

In the HVAC head. I used the 360 interior photo thing to zoom in. You push the large rh knob. I see the rear defrost symbol there. At least I think that is where it is at.

imidazol97

The description you gave fits what I would expect. The full load of weight (luggage included?) affects the car with gearing for fuel efficiency at highway speeds and requires downshifting. Was it a downshift or just coming out of 4th torque convertor lockup? I'm sure you checked by pulling the shift lever down into 3 just to be sure that's what gear you were in? I have found on last several cars I tap the brake pedal to release the torque convert lockup and often the engine speeds up and handles the grade without ending up having to downshift into 3rd.

Most drivers of the V6 I picture as one or two around locally and travelling light. They probably won't demand of the car what some others will expect (rightly so).

The V8 is a strong option. I saw one parked outside the local hospital this morning. Black with chrome. Nice.

The HUD has to be fitted into the tight instrument cluster, a dealer showed me. I asked because my LeSabre has it. I like it when traveling and around town. I laughed at it when we bought the car because it was a part of the total package my wife wanted. Now I like it.

62vetteefp

The HUD has to be fitted into the tight instrument cluster, a dealer showed me. I asked because my LeSabre has it. I like it when traveling and around town. I laughed at it when we bought the car because it was a part of the total package my wife wanted. Now I like it.

HUD has not just caught on. MOst feel as you that it is a waste of money buy once they get used to it they like it. Getting them to buy it in the first place is the hard part. Have you noticed that only GM uses them? Up to recently GM had exclusive rights to the technology. A couple years ago a number of suppliers started to push the other OEM's to use them but I do not believe any have done so yet. Once Lexus or MB starts to use them then probably they will take off as "cool".

They are also tough to fit in. They look like a bump on the IP top pad. You need to worry about windshield reflection of the unit. Does not work with poloroid sunglasses. Are not cheap, etc. But they are good for those with bifocals since you can read the unit w/o looking down thru the lower glasses.

rayainsw

Currently also shown as available on the BMW 5.
Are BMWs cool these days?
A HUD was on the '97 GM car I had.
A substantially improved version is on my current GM car I drive.
It helps allow eyes on the road . .
Convenient.
- Ray
HUD believer . .

imidazol97

In our case the HUD is not a bump, it's an opening down into the level of the dash top.

62vetteefp

What car are you talking about?