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MazdaSpeed3: Styling Impressions

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  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Yeah, it's at central. They're getting 4 GTs (no nav), one in each color. My "deposit" (an unrun credit card authorization) is on the Cosmic Blue.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Thanks for the reply.

    It's good to know that out of the initial allocation, they're getting 4 cars. Although I'm not surprised considering they're (from what I understand) one of the oldest/largest Mazda dealers in Texas. Interesting that they're getting what (IMO) is a good selection of the most popular configuration (GTs w/o nav).

    Did they give you any WAG on when they may hit the lot? I've been hearing guesstimates of anywhere from mid Sept. to early Nov.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Yeah, a Mazda South salesguy told me that it (South alone) is one of the largest volume dealer nationwide. So, I reckon that putting them all together, they've got some pull.

    As far as arrival, they were being cautious, but the inventory manager speculated that August production would mean late Sept, early Oct arrival. Also, for purposes of matching actual VINs with deposits, they should get those in August. Until they get the VINs, they won't know for sure what they're actually getting. Therefore deposits don't count for all that much right now. More like being on the list to put down a deposit.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    http://editorial.carsales.com.au/car-review/1893377.aspx

    And remember, folks, the MPS is rated at 248 hp. Looks like we will see 260 plus.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    This was interesting from that review:

    "the 3 MPS's tune (and therefore claimed power and torque) is identical to the 6 MPS. Peak power is 190kW at 5500rpm and top torque an impressive 380Nm at 3000rpm."

    Now, I've no idea what 190kW translates to in the latest version of SAE net Hp as we use it in the U.S., but I found it interesting that in at least one market, a reviewer stated that both the Speed3 and the Speed6 were rated at the same output.

    If the state of tune is identical between the Speed6 and the Speed3 (at least in Australia), I wonder if the U.S. market Speed3 would be rated at the same 274hp as the Speed6?
  • daniel99daniel99 Member Posts: 13
    I just search for conversion sites...
    (The Axela release didn't have US measurements either.)
    Weight = 1390 kg (3,064 lbs.)
    Output = 194 kW (264 HP) - note diff. value
    Torque = 380 Nm (280 Lb-Ft)

    ...hoping the numbers stay the same for the U.S.
    But I'm trying to find a dealership around Atlanta that can handle some re-tuning to get it to 274 or better without voiding any warranties.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    http://www.americanmachinist.com/Calculators/HorseToKilo.aspx has a hp/kw conversion. For some reason I was thinking the Aussie MPS's were 248 but the conversion is 254 per the above site. It may well be that the MS3 will be the same as the MS6, but another site has a scan of an official Mazda US spec sheet which says 260 SAE corrected. The reason for the lower hp according to one article quoting Mazda people (I forget where) was tight routing of the exhaust due to the smaller engine bay.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Well, I'm aware of the hp/kW conversions. The problem is that the WAY that hp is measured (SAE rules) has changed recently (and I've no idea how frequently or recently the rules change for measuring output in kW), so I've no idea of how accurate those conversions still are.

    I think what may be happening is that there is NO difference whatsoever between the engines in the Speed3 and Speed6, but differences in exhaust design (as you noted) would result in different ratings. Without knowing how power is measured under Australian rules, it's difficult to say.

    Given some of Mazda's past history (initial RX-8 and Miata hp ratings vs. the later revised ratings), they are probably a bit leary about releasing inflated numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if those folks who've already received Speed3's (overseas) are getting them on the dyno to try to confirm the numbers.
  • chacobleuchacobleu Member Posts: 228
    yeah, great aussie review.

    but explain why the sight below isn't be hailed as the gospel instead? I know that I posted it once (7/10) and autonomous did as well (again on 7/12)

    http://www.mazda.com/publicity/release/200606/0606.html
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Actually, autonomous posted the link to that site on 6/7 (the day after it was issued by Mazda). And it was discussed a fair amount.

    However, I'm confused (yeah, I know, real surprising :blush: ): what does that press release by Mazda have to do with the aussie review?

    The Mazda release (for Japan) indicates the MS3 will make 194kW. The Aussie review states 190kW. So? Is THIS what you are saying we should treat as "gospel". Are you assuming that EVERYONE has the exact same test procedure and that somehow the Aussie motors are "detuned" to make 4 less kW?

    Any differences between the ratings could just be due to different test methods used by Japan and Australia. Just as the revised SAE test methods resulted in different hp ratings for several cars last year - the engines didn't change but the test methods did resulting in different hp numbers.

    I read the Aussie review for it's review of the driving dynamics of the MS3. I just thought that it was interesting that, IN AUSTRALIA, the MS3 has the exact same power/torque ratings as the MS6. This indicates (to me) that there may be NO difference whatsoever in the 'tune' of the MS3 compared to the MS6 for the U.S. market and that any differences in the ratings would be due to external factors (ie. the exhaust system).
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    This is what I've read a number of times. The MS3's engine is not detuned, but power is lower b/c of a more restrictive exhaust.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Rorr, I found it once and I will find it again, but I think the Japanese MS Atenza has a substantially higher rating than the MSP 6. More than the 6 hp difference between the MS Axela and the MSP 3. If correct that signifies to me that the Oz MSP's really are detuned. I'll post as soon as I find the info which I think came from a Mazda news release.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    http://www.mazda.com/publicity/release/200506/0623b.html

    This press release lists the MS Atenza's power rating as 200 kw (268 hp). Seems like a 10 kw / 14 hp difference would be the result of something other than different methods of measurement.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Thanks sean. I think you're right; there's got to be more going on that just differences in measurement methodology.

    Oh well; I think I'll stop flogging this dead horse. It's all conjecture anyway until Mazda releases the official specs. Perhaps they're a bit gun-shy after the release of other models with what turn out to be inflated hp numbers.
  • chacobleuchacobleu Member Posts: 228
    I know there's been some criticism over the quality of USA fuel vs. Europe or even Canada. I think most of the criticism has been centered around diesel fuel, but not all.

    I don't know what type of fuel they use in outback land, but I do know that a higher/lower quality fuels have been known for power spec differences (again, as seen in the world of racing).

    Then there is air quality such as altitude, air temp., humidity, etc., that will change a vehicle's characteristics from day to day or sometimes in the same day.

    Seems too trivial especially without knowing at least some of the above.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    "I think most of the criticism has been centered around diesel fuel, but not all."

    Yep. Not sure about 'critisms' of our gasoline however (can't necessarily directly compare Octane ratings either since Europe (and Australia) uses the RON ratings (Research Octane Number) while we use the average between the RON and the MON.) Otherwise identical gasoline is rated 4 to 5 points lower under our system than the European ratings.

    From what I understand, the new MSP3 (like the MSP6) in the U.S. will 'require' 93 octane (measure under our system). Yes, it should run okay with lower octane fuel, but won't make as much same power (due to the ECM adjusting the timing).

    It's quite possible that Mazda decided that there is adequate availability of 93 octane fuel in the U.S. to tune the MSP6 for 274hp. The flip side is that the equivalent fuel may not be AS available in Australia so Mazda tuned the engine for more of a midgrade blend. I haven't seen the fuel requirements for the AU market MSP3 or MSP6, so I don't really know.

    Yes, atmospheric effects will certainly change the power output. And yes, this is all pretty trivial. I guess we're all just passing the time until we get some more real news (or driving impressions) regarding the Speed3.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "I guess we're all just passing the time until we get some more real news (or driving impressions) regarding the Speed3."

    Yep.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    "And remember, folks, the MPS is rated at 248 hp. Looks like we will see 260 plus."

    FYI: 248 hp is incorrect. It came from http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/motoringpreviews/200846/mazda_3_mps.html. But Oz Mazda says the spec is 190 kw or 254 hp, so maybe the 248 hp is just for the euro-spec MPS.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Thanks for the heads up.

    Looks to be a fairly positive review. What I'd REALLY like to see (at some point) would be a comparison test between the Speed3 and the other current hot hatches in the segment (VW GTI, Civic Si, Cooper S).

    Also, I noticed mention that the engine torque is 'managed' in the first THREE gears, rather than just 1st and 2nd. That's WAY too much 'management' IMO.

    Does anyone know if the DSC system can be turned off (completely or to some degree)? Also, I wonder if the torque management through the first few gears can be similarly turned off?
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    I agree about the limiting of gears 2-3. 1st I can definitely understand limiting 1st, 'cause in my MS6 the ratios are so close 1st is over before I know it. But by 3rd you're well on your way and I don't see why it wouldn't be a noticeable annoyance. I think the DSC is off when it says it is. But I doubt they'll allow you to turn of the power management in 1-3, 'cause a big reason it's there to cut down on Mazda's warranty repair costs. At least that's the best reason I've heard for including it.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    Sean - I've been following (a bit) the whole fuel octane issue over on one of the other boards. I noted that you had tried to get a feel for the supposed hit in power you get in your Speed6 from going from 93 octane to either 91 or 89 (I forget which).

    Were you ever able to get a good feel for if there is any appreciable difference between 93 and a lower octane fuel?

    Also (revisiting the whole hp issue and the reviews of the AU market Speed3), I've determined that the AU Speed3 requires 95 RON octane fuel (roughly equal to 90 octane in our rating system).

    Perhaps this is one reason why the AU Speed6 (and Speed3) are rated at 'only' 190kW in AU? With a lower octane requirement (roughly 90), they may be rated at 'only' 254hp? Yet with 93 octane fuel, the M6 could be rated (in the U.S.) at 274hp.

    Now, I'm beginning to think that the only real differences between the various markets and the Speed3/Speed6 is the fuel used for the hp rating (and any market specific fuel calibrations that would go with that rating).

    IF that is the case (and it's a big "IF"), I'm wondering just how close the Speed3 will be rated to 274hp if run with 93 octane fuel?

    dammit, I sure wish Mazda would release more info.....this is driving me nuts.....
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Rorr, I don't think it is fair to make a final judgment until I reset the ECU and let it get used to the 91. I'll do that soon. My impression is that the 93 just sharpens performance but I can't sense a big difference.

    I think you are right about the differences in markets. Crossbow (1st to post US hp @ 267/260 corrected) speculated there will actually be next to no difference in hp b/t the US MS6/3 and that they just want to differentiate the MS6 on paper. We know how upset some MS6 drivers get when you even suggest that the MS3 will be equivalent of better in any way.

    Since reading Edmunds 1st Drive where the head Mazda engineer is quoted as saying one reason the MS3 didn't get AWD was they wanted to differentiate the MS6, I am now convinced the stated hp differences are just to create a perceived spread between the two cars.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    You could very well be right.

    I'm also wondering that if Mazda intends to differentiate the MS3 from the 6 by having a paper hp difference, might the fuel requirement for the MS3 be 91 octane (similar to the AU market MS3) instead of 93?

    Not that it makes a huge difference to me. I've put nothing but 93 octane into my Celica GTS for the last 6 years; I would have no problem doing the same for a MS3.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Yeah, it would be a good opportunity for them to avoid all the hurt feelings in CA/elsewhere. And 260 SAE is still plenty of power for FWD. Not that some of us won't opt for more via aftermarket intake/exhaust once we have a feel for the stock setup.
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    From another forum:

    Mazdaspeed3 pricing effective July 24th sent to dealers:

    Sport: $22,240
    Grand Touring: $23,955
  • helmutrothhelmutroth Member Posts: 15
    Can you provide a link to the other forum?
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    It's against the rules of the road <<<<. Just do a search of mazda3 forums and you'll find it in the Mazdaspeed section. FWIW, it was posted by some guy who just joined today with the name "mix12". It could just be a prank.
  • rorrrorr Member Posts: 3,630
    I'm going out on a limb and say that those prices are probably true (just my opinion) but don't reflect the additional delivery/destination charge.

    What's truely amazing is that those prices are cheaper than what I paid 6 years ago for my Celica GTS.... :sick:
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    that is correct, but, don't forget to add destination of $560
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    Aviboy, are you confirming these are the base MSRPs sent to dealers or just that they seem about right?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Yes.

    MS3 Sport...............$22,800
    MS3 Grand Touring...$24,515

    Both prices include destination of $560

    This is priced much lower then the GTI
  • daniel99daniel99 Member Posts: 13
    Mazda was updating their site last night (mazdausa). The prices updated and confirmed as above.
  • jcrystaljcrystal Member Posts: 8
    What experiences have people had placing preorders and getting reliable information on production/delivery timing? I've tried working with a couple of dealers in New England, and get mixed messages, latest being they cannot take orders until late August, but can get any configuration I want, but production isn't until December. Another dealer says they have 2 specific cars already in the pipeline for delivery in Sept/Oct they "think." Anyone know more what's happening, or what it would take to get one by October?

    On another note, in addition to the prices now being posted on the Mazda website, I noticed some changes in the the other specs. A few days ago both models had Bose audio. Now it's just GT. A few days ago GT had a special A/C unit with pollen filter, now that's disappeared. At what point should we assume it's real?
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    Here's an interesting article by Jim Kerr on turbocharging:
    http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/060726.htm

    "... even small displacement engines are putting out more horsepower per litre displacement than specifically designed race cars did just a couple decades ago. Turbocharging is one way of increasing that output per litre, yet keeping the engine small so fuel economy is good too."
  • kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    Has anyone else found any other (besides the Edmunds Inside Line) reviews on the actual Speed3? I haven't been able to find any others with Google. Certainly, if the Japanese version is available, somebody else must have driven it.

    Thanks.

    Greg
  • gputzgputz Member Posts: 49
    The initial specs on the Mazdausa site include two interior dimension placeholders; with & w/o moonroof. Although a roof is not specifically shown on the option list, I'm wondering if that may yet be offered. Any news on sun/moonroof availability on the Speed3? (in the US)
  • gputzgputz Member Posts: 49
    One Speed3 gone already:

    Pic 1
    Pic 2
    Pic 3

    From Subdriven.com
  • dc_driverdc_driver Member Posts: 712
    Ouch... That's gotta hurt :)
  • kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    on the Axela MPS/Mazdaspeed3:

    http://www.autocarmag.com/FirstDrive_Summary.asp?RT=221244

    Even though it's for the UK, it's better than nothing!

    Greg
  • seanwms6seanwms6 Member Posts: 121
    A guy on another forum from NJ posted that he has a VIN on a Sport to be produced next week. He's paying MSRP. Sure I wish I could participate in the fun, but discounting of MS6s mean no trade-in for me, not that I could live with, anyway. This makes me unhappy, but I'll be back for the 2nd round. By then maybe I'll find a dealer who will sell on S-Plan and allieviate some of the trade-in pain.
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    For a MazdaSpeed 3 Sedan! :shades:

    DrFill
  • kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    I have been watching the Mazdaspeed6 forum with great interest. It's noteworthy to me that nearly one year after the MS6 being released, it is selling well below MSRP...there's an account of one going for about $22k (I'll have to read it again, but I think it's a GT).

    Anyone care to speculate if the same thing will happen with the Mazdaspeed3? I recall reports that the same thing happened with the Mazdaspeed Protege--after the novelty wore off, several models sat on the lot and were later sold at a discount.

    I realize that Mazda sells more 3's (all models) than the 6, and perhaps there will be greater demand for the MS3 because it is more attainable, and it makes me wonder. I don't think the MS3 will have the same appeal (for lack of a better word) as the Civic Si, which apparently still sells for a premium.

    If I could get a "stripped" MS3 GT in about a year for under $20k, that would be awesome!

    Thanks!

    Greg
  • drfilldrfill Member Posts: 2,484
    That shouldn't be a problem.

    DrFill
  • audia8qaudia8q Member Posts: 3,138
    Anyone care to speculate if the same thing will happen with the Mazdaspeed3?

    I would speculate that the Mazda6speed was a little out of the range for mazda's core customers....the Speed3 on the other hand is dead on target for their traditional customer base. Based on the response we have seen, I think this may be the best speed yet.
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Well, Greg, I do not think that the Mazdaspeed3 will not suffer the same sales drought as the Mazdaspeed6. The MS6 was targeted to a very small audience, and it was not available with an auto tranny, which most people in that demographic look for.

    The Mazdaspeed3, however, is targeted to a much younger audience. Basically the GTI/Si crowd. For now, I would say the Mazdaspeed3 does stand a chance to hold value similar to how the WRX does, possibly. Now, I said POSSIBLY, I could be wrong.

    I have already had numerous inquiries to the Mazdaspeed3, and 99% are under 25 years old.
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    The Mazdaspeed3, however, is targeted to a much younger audience.

    Mazda seems to be applying a schizophrenic strategy in marketing Mazdaspeeds: lacking outer embellishments such as a huge front bulge, large wing, lots of chrome/bling/decals suggests an understated adult design while at the same time promoting the Mazdaspeed3 as the "wild child" morphing into a chortling dragster. Badder than an SI but not quite a WRX? Is this a plain canvas to let the PimpMyRide types to wreak havoc or is this the elegant assasin of the BMW3 / Audi / VW RSI delivering gobs of power to the masses?

    Finally, what percentage of Mazda3 drivers use the stick?
  • aviboy97aviboy97 Member Posts: 3,159
    Finally, what percentage of Mazda3 drivers use the stick?

    I do not know the percentage, but, it is very high. I ran out of Mazda3's in stick a month ago.

    People looking for this car will mainly be looking for the 5-speed, hence the younger targeted audience.

    I like Mazdas idea of not having the car a visual target to theft and police. Those vehicles with massive wings, monster hood scoops just scream "I am compensating for my SHORT commings!" if you catch my drift.. The Mazdaspeed3 is more like a sleeper.
  • kronogoosekronogoose Member Posts: 116
    I seem to recall similar observations about the MS6's ambiguous and ill-defined mission. Was it an entry-lux sedan? Or a bargain-priced four-door sports car? A mix of both?

    Whatever the case, Mazdaspeed's approach to both the 6 and 3 appeals to me. Rather than broadcast, "hey, doesn't my car look fast" with a hoodscoop and coffee can exhaust, the Speed models quietly demonstrate with performance. But I want a stealth car--one that looks like a dime-a-dozen Mazda3 but with better than expected acceleration and handling.

    I, too, question some of Mazda's marketing. I'm still scratching my head about the Protege5 commercial (obviously from a couple of years ago) with young adults skateboarding. All of the P5's (and 3's for that matter) I see in my area seem to be driven by young families...not exactly the skateboarding type.

    For what it's worth, there are at least four Mazda3's in my parking lot, and two of them have a manual transmission.

    Oh well. It will be interesting to see how the MS3 is marketed and how it sells.

    Greg
  • root3root3 Member Posts: 1
    well I, for one, love the "wild child" speed3 promos -- it only serves to emphasize what it's not -- a ricer, or a dragster, while evoking a visceral reaction from the intended audience. Well, me at least. In my mind it is similar in power to the "metal band singing a slow song" -- one of the most powerful things in the universe.

    But then again, I am only 32, perhaps the older folk can't appreciate the "this world is my toy" mentality.

    Suffice it to say, I might forego waiting for someone to honor the s-plan and just place the order now...

    Although, does anyone have any guesses if MS3 will be continued for 08? I know mazda in the past did these things as a one-off, but since MS6 is renewed for a second year despite lagging sales, and the engine is not a one-off, perhaps MS3 will be available for years to come as well?

    any mazda production planners here?
This discussion has been closed.