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MazdaSpeed3: Styling Impressions
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It's good to know that out of the initial allocation, they're getting 4 cars. Although I'm not surprised considering they're (from what I understand) one of the oldest/largest Mazda dealers in Texas. Interesting that they're getting what (IMO) is a good selection of the most popular configuration (GTs w/o nav).
Did they give you any WAG on when they may hit the lot? I've been hearing guesstimates of anywhere from mid Sept. to early Nov.
As far as arrival, they were being cautious, but the inventory manager speculated that August production would mean late Sept, early Oct arrival. Also, for purposes of matching actual VINs with deposits, they should get those in August. Until they get the VINs, they won't know for sure what they're actually getting. Therefore deposits don't count for all that much right now. More like being on the list to put down a deposit.
And remember, folks, the MPS is rated at 248 hp. Looks like we will see 260 plus.
"the 3 MPS's tune (and therefore claimed power and torque) is identical to the 6 MPS. Peak power is 190kW at 5500rpm and top torque an impressive 380Nm at 3000rpm."
Now, I've no idea what 190kW translates to in the latest version of SAE net Hp as we use it in the U.S., but I found it interesting that in at least one market, a reviewer stated that both the Speed3 and the Speed6 were rated at the same output.
If the state of tune is identical between the Speed6 and the Speed3 (at least in Australia), I wonder if the U.S. market Speed3 would be rated at the same 274hp as the Speed6?
(The Axela release didn't have US measurements either.)
Weight = 1390 kg (3,064 lbs.)
Output = 194 kW (264 HP) - note diff. value
Torque = 380 Nm (280 Lb-Ft)
...hoping the numbers stay the same for the U.S.
But I'm trying to find a dealership around Atlanta that can handle some re-tuning to get it to 274 or better without voiding any warranties.
I think what may be happening is that there is NO difference whatsoever between the engines in the Speed3 and Speed6, but differences in exhaust design (as you noted) would result in different ratings. Without knowing how power is measured under Australian rules, it's difficult to say.
Given some of Mazda's past history (initial RX-8 and Miata hp ratings vs. the later revised ratings), they are probably a bit leary about releasing inflated numbers. I wouldn't be surprised if those folks who've already received Speed3's (overseas) are getting them on the dyno to try to confirm the numbers.
but explain why the sight below isn't be hailed as the gospel instead? I know that I posted it once (7/10) and autonomous did as well (again on 7/12)
http://www.mazda.com/publicity/release/200606/0606.html
However, I'm confused (yeah, I know, real surprising
The Mazda release (for Japan) indicates the MS3 will make 194kW. The Aussie review states 190kW. So? Is THIS what you are saying we should treat as "gospel". Are you assuming that EVERYONE has the exact same test procedure and that somehow the Aussie motors are "detuned" to make 4 less kW?
Any differences between the ratings could just be due to different test methods used by Japan and Australia. Just as the revised SAE test methods resulted in different hp ratings for several cars last year - the engines didn't change but the test methods did resulting in different hp numbers.
I read the Aussie review for it's review of the driving dynamics of the MS3. I just thought that it was interesting that, IN AUSTRALIA, the MS3 has the exact same power/torque ratings as the MS6. This indicates (to me) that there may be NO difference whatsoever in the 'tune' of the MS3 compared to the MS6 for the U.S. market and that any differences in the ratings would be due to external factors (ie. the exhaust system).
This press release lists the MS Atenza's power rating as 200 kw (268 hp). Seems like a 10 kw / 14 hp difference would be the result of something other than different methods of measurement.
Oh well; I think I'll stop flogging this dead horse. It's all conjecture anyway until Mazda releases the official specs. Perhaps they're a bit gun-shy after the release of other models with what turn out to be inflated hp numbers.
I don't know what type of fuel they use in outback land, but I do know that a higher/lower quality fuels have been known for power spec differences (again, as seen in the world of racing).
Then there is air quality such as altitude, air temp., humidity, etc., that will change a vehicle's characteristics from day to day or sometimes in the same day.
Seems too trivial especially without knowing at least some of the above.
Yep. Not sure about 'critisms' of our gasoline however (can't necessarily directly compare Octane ratings either since Europe (and Australia) uses the RON ratings (Research Octane Number) while we use the average between the RON and the MON.) Otherwise identical gasoline is rated 4 to 5 points lower under our system than the European ratings.
From what I understand, the new MSP3 (like the MSP6) in the U.S. will 'require' 93 octane (measure under our system). Yes, it should run okay with lower octane fuel, but won't make as much same power (due to the ECM adjusting the timing).
It's quite possible that Mazda decided that there is adequate availability of 93 octane fuel in the U.S. to tune the MSP6 for 274hp. The flip side is that the equivalent fuel may not be AS available in Australia so Mazda tuned the engine for more of a midgrade blend. I haven't seen the fuel requirements for the AU market MSP3 or MSP6, so I don't really know.
Yes, atmospheric effects will certainly change the power output. And yes, this is all pretty trivial. I guess we're all just passing the time until we get some more real news (or driving impressions) regarding the Speed3.
Yep.
FYI: 248 hp is incorrect. It came from http://www.autoexpress.co.uk/news/motoringpreviews/200846/mazda_3_mps.html. But Oz Mazda says the spec is 190 kw or 254 hp, so maybe the 248 hp is just for the euro-spec MPS.
Looks to be a fairly positive review. What I'd REALLY like to see (at some point) would be a comparison test between the Speed3 and the other current hot hatches in the segment (VW GTI, Civic Si, Cooper S).
Also, I noticed mention that the engine torque is 'managed' in the first THREE gears, rather than just 1st and 2nd. That's WAY too much 'management' IMO.
Does anyone know if the DSC system can be turned off (completely or to some degree)? Also, I wonder if the torque management through the first few gears can be similarly turned off?
Were you ever able to get a good feel for if there is any appreciable difference between 93 and a lower octane fuel?
Also (revisiting the whole hp issue and the reviews of the AU market Speed3), I've determined that the AU Speed3 requires 95 RON octane fuel (roughly equal to 90 octane in our rating system).
Perhaps this is one reason why the AU Speed6 (and Speed3) are rated at 'only' 190kW in AU? With a lower octane requirement (roughly 90), they may be rated at 'only' 254hp? Yet with 93 octane fuel, the M6 could be rated (in the U.S.) at 274hp.
Now, I'm beginning to think that the only real differences between the various markets and the Speed3/Speed6 is the fuel used for the hp rating (and any market specific fuel calibrations that would go with that rating).
IF that is the case (and it's a big "IF"), I'm wondering just how close the Speed3 will be rated to 274hp if run with 93 octane fuel?
dammit, I sure wish Mazda would release more info.....this is driving me nuts.....
I think you are right about the differences in markets. Crossbow (1st to post US hp @ 267/260 corrected) speculated there will actually be next to no difference in hp b/t the US MS6/3 and that they just want to differentiate the MS6 on paper. We know how upset some MS6 drivers get when you even suggest that the MS3 will be equivalent of better in any way.
Since reading Edmunds 1st Drive where the head Mazda engineer is quoted as saying one reason the MS3 didn't get AWD was they wanted to differentiate the MS6, I am now convinced the stated hp differences are just to create a perceived spread between the two cars.
I'm also wondering that if Mazda intends to differentiate the MS3 from the 6 by having a paper hp difference, might the fuel requirement for the MS3 be 91 octane (similar to the AU market MS3) instead of 93?
Not that it makes a huge difference to me. I've put nothing but 93 octane into my Celica GTS for the last 6 years; I would have no problem doing the same for a MS3.
Mazdaspeed3 pricing effective July 24th sent to dealers:
Sport: $22,240
Grand Touring: $23,955
What's truely amazing is that those prices are cheaper than what I paid 6 years ago for my Celica GTS.... :sick:
MS3 Sport...............$22,800
MS3 Grand Touring...$24,515
Both prices include destination of $560
This is priced much lower then the GTI
On another note, in addition to the prices now being posted on the Mazda website, I noticed some changes in the the other specs. A few days ago both models had Bose audio. Now it's just GT. A few days ago GT had a special A/C unit with pollen filter, now that's disappeared. At what point should we assume it's real?
http://www.canadiandriver.com/articles/jk/060726.htm
"... even small displacement engines are putting out more horsepower per litre displacement than specifically designed race cars did just a couple decades ago. Turbocharging is one way of increasing that output per litre, yet keeping the engine small so fuel economy is good too."
Thanks.
Greg
Pic 1
Pic 2
Pic 3
From Subdriven.com
http://www.autocarmag.com/FirstDrive_Summary.asp?RT=221244
Even though it's for the UK, it's better than nothing!
Greg
DrFill
Anyone care to speculate if the same thing will happen with the Mazdaspeed3? I recall reports that the same thing happened with the Mazdaspeed Protege--after the novelty wore off, several models sat on the lot and were later sold at a discount.
I realize that Mazda sells more 3's (all models) than the 6, and perhaps there will be greater demand for the MS3 because it is more attainable, and it makes me wonder. I don't think the MS3 will have the same appeal (for lack of a better word) as the Civic Si, which apparently still sells for a premium.
If I could get a "stripped" MS3 GT in about a year for under $20k, that would be awesome!
Thanks!
Greg
DrFill
I would speculate that the Mazda6speed was a little out of the range for mazda's core customers....the Speed3 on the other hand is dead on target for their traditional customer base. Based on the response we have seen, I think this may be the best speed yet.
The Mazdaspeed3, however, is targeted to a much younger audience. Basically the GTI/Si crowd. For now, I would say the Mazdaspeed3 does stand a chance to hold value similar to how the WRX does, possibly. Now, I said POSSIBLY, I could be wrong.
I have already had numerous inquiries to the Mazdaspeed3, and 99% are under 25 years old.
Mazda seems to be applying a schizophrenic strategy in marketing Mazdaspeeds: lacking outer embellishments such as a huge front bulge, large wing, lots of chrome/bling/decals suggests an understated adult design while at the same time promoting the Mazdaspeed3 as the "wild child" morphing into a chortling dragster. Badder than an SI but not quite a WRX? Is this a plain canvas to let the PimpMyRide types to wreak havoc or is this the elegant assasin of the BMW3 / Audi / VW RSI delivering gobs of power to the masses?
Finally, what percentage of Mazda3 drivers use the stick?
I do not know the percentage, but, it is very high. I ran out of Mazda3's in stick a month ago.
People looking for this car will mainly be looking for the 5-speed, hence the younger targeted audience.
I like Mazdas idea of not having the car a visual target to theft and police. Those vehicles with massive wings, monster hood scoops just scream "I am compensating for my SHORT commings!" if you catch my drift.. The Mazdaspeed3 is more like a sleeper.
Whatever the case, Mazdaspeed's approach to both the 6 and 3 appeals to me. Rather than broadcast, "hey, doesn't my car look fast" with a hoodscoop and coffee can exhaust, the Speed models quietly demonstrate with performance. But I want a stealth car--one that looks like a dime-a-dozen Mazda3 but with better than expected acceleration and handling.
I, too, question some of Mazda's marketing. I'm still scratching my head about the Protege5 commercial (obviously from a couple of years ago) with young adults skateboarding. All of the P5's (and 3's for that matter) I see in my area seem to be driven by young families...not exactly the skateboarding type.
For what it's worth, there are at least four Mazda3's in my parking lot, and two of them have a manual transmission.
Oh well. It will be interesting to see how the MS3 is marketed and how it sells.
Greg
But then again, I am only 32, perhaps the older folk can't appreciate the "this world is my toy" mentality.
Suffice it to say, I might forego waiting for someone to honor the s-plan and just place the order now...
Although, does anyone have any guesses if MS3 will be continued for 08? I know mazda in the past did these things as a one-off, but since MS6 is renewed for a second year despite lagging sales, and the engine is not a one-off, perhaps MS3 will be available for years to come as well?
any mazda production planners here?