The regulators have to play by the rules set down by congress or the states.
I thought it was the other way around. Congress set up the EPA to make regulations. CARB was set up by CA legislature to make regulations. The head of CARB for years had a real vendetta against diesel engines. It was apparent in his writing. It was directed at diesel automobiles and to a much lesser degree Trucks, trains, planes & ships.
Both Toyota and GM are not that keen on diesel cars
They sell them everywhere in the world except here and Japan. Toyota would be a non player in the EU without diesel vehicles. Honda could not sell a car in the EU until they started using someone else's diesel engines. That is when they got on the ball and built their very fine diesel engines. I believe and will believe that CARB especially as they control the auto market for the whole country, have kept the regulations just far enough out there to beat the Euro emissions standards and block the sale of diesels in the USA. It may have been the oil lobby that was behind it also. Knowing they have a surplus of gas and shortage of diesel.
Gosh, arrogance and self-rightiousness, what a delightful combination. :P
FWIW, shortly after I bought my last car my wife and I took a little trip in it. Given that the requirements were to keep speeds below 105 mph for the first 1,200 miles, I usually kept the cruise control somewhere south of 100. After we'd gone past the "break-in" point, I usually kept the CC set to around 125 mph, in spite of the fact that some cars were passing us somewhere north of 160. And guess what? It was all very legal and all quite safe, so please, no blathering about arrests, license suspensions and child endagerment.
..."Some people think regulators have unlimited powers."...
By my post you can see that I am not one of them, so whom that has just fallen off turnip trucks do you think that do?
It is easier for me to operate a gasser gross polluter than to get a legal NEW diesel fresh off the boat from Europe.
What is locked is a structural 20-40% greater usage of fuel.
While I respect the expression of your opinion/s, the operative realities do NOTsupport them. The operative reality: why use less, when you can use more. Fool the majority into thinking it is cheaper (corollary doing the math will ....)
I am ok with that, I just like using less while you chose to use more.
Corner store prices for RUG PUG D2.
VW Jetta 2.0, $4.05 RUG/29 mpg= .1397 per mile driven
VW Jetta 1.8T $4.25 PUG/29 mpg= .1466 per mile driven
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI $4.99 D2/49 mpg=.10184= per mile driven
What do (you and) the overwhelming majority of gasser drivers actually chose? Which is actually cheaper?
The oil companies thank YOU for taking this survey. Probably more importantly the 98% "BETTER" choice.
The real scary point is that those attitudes really mask the facts that: 1. the OVERWHELMING majority of DEATHS and accidents happen at UNDER 45 mph!!! 2. They also mask the real scourge of upwards of 40% fatalities and accidents being DUI related. Needless to say driving DUI is unsafe at ANY speed. The government entities dont advertise this for hopefully obvious reasons. But for hopefully obvious reasons they really should advertise this. Lower speed limits have the operative effect of giving the illusion of being safe. When you combine that with the hypnotic and narcotizing effects of ACTUAL lower speeds, such as distracted driving tricks, you really have a receipt for daily disaster. Incidently 75% of accidents are caused by "distracted driving"
What you still fail to grasp is the structurally 20-40 % better diesel & the lack of (like model comparisons ) Prius diesel comparison!! So as a Prius gets 45 mpg (good by any standard), you still miss the point that is Toyota could potentially do with a diesel Prius say @ 75 mpg (40% just like the VW comparison). To VW's credit they are at least up front about it. But that is ok!! Hard for the turnip truck to miss you, as you really dont see that you are getting hit by it. Out of sight out of mind seems to work for you!? It will have to work for me, that it works for you.
Yamaha C3- same thing.20-40 % diesel is still better Too bad no diesel. Your numbers past .0346153 are made up. Just as the dialing out of diesel products is made up. But you knew that!
So now you understand fully why America fights for European oil in the middle east, when it really doesn't have to! :lemon:
That was exceptionally funny! I just hope the gasses from my decaying body can be converted to some useful motive purpose - like public transportation :P
Lots of nice people in Texas, especially around San Antonio. But, lest there be any "Diesels In The News" type distortion or confusion about speed limits anywhere in the US, including "Texas"; 90% of that state is popsted 75MPH. See the link. People are know to take alternate routes to avoid The Republic of Texas, (and all of those brown shirts), at any cost. Other people when renting cars in the adjoining states have a standing order with the rental agencies of "No Texas Plates", so as to avoid being shot at in the other Lower 47.
"The speed limit on the Texas interstate is 80 mph." ============================================================ The above statement is a false. At most 10% of the Texas Interstates have an allowable speed of 80MPH half of the time - the other half of the time it is 75MPH, or less, as it is on 90% of the rest of the Texas Interstates, (and all of the rest of the US Interstates) 100% of the time. The 80MPH % of Texas interstates comes out to more than the equivalent diesel passenger vehicle use in the US - which has nothing to do with anything, but at this point why break the prevailing theme?
The interstate I I went 80 mph was stated at 80 mph. NO claim was made as to ALL the interstates being 80 mph was made. so YOUR statement is false. All interstates are posted as to what they are. But you know that, just as anyone else should know that. The" false ness" is in your mind. It would be no different than if I said 65 mph is the limit on the interstate. There are some places where 70 mph is the speed limit on the interstate- adjust accordingly, but you know that.
The new GLK series from MB will be available with the same BluTec V6 offered in their other vehicles. Plus they are adding a 4 cylinder diesel for those like me that are more interested in economy that racing. It looks to be slightly smaller than the GL320 CDI. It may replace the ML320 CDI. Will be built in Germany so should be available for European delivery. Sounds like a winner..
I have recently purchased a 2008 F-250 diesel and travel quite a bit to Baja Mexico, I was told when I purchased the truck that I cannot or shouldn't use the Mexican diesel. Fortunately I haven't had the need to fill up down there can anybody tell me what can happen if anything if I use Mexican diesel...
Kind of reminds me of the old Three Dog Night group's song "Heaven Is In Your Mind". "Three Dog Night" being a an Alaskan Inuit term, where the speed limit is 65MPH on the Interstates, 24/7, unless posted otherwise, and never on surface streets; "surface" meaning not Interstates, which are of course in reality on a surface but not to be confused with "surface streets", where the speed limits can vary according to the whim of local municipalities - and the weather; which is not to be confused with the Weather Underground, which is a whole other story.
Most of time the cars are doing Zero, notwithstanding the rotational speed of the Earth, its speed around the sun, and the expansion speed of the universe, which seems to vary depending on the whim of local municipalities - except in Texas where it is whatever you want it to be because "false ness" is in your mind, as of course is Texas.
First off your 2008 was probably designed to run on ULSD @ 15 ppm sulfur or less. Mexican diesel is probably INXS of 500 ppm. So long term continued use can cause soot levels to be higher than normal. I ran the majority of miles on a 03 Jetta TDI designed for ULSD that was LSD @ 500 ppm or less (CA USD @140 ppm) At 98,000 miles I had a good look at the EGR and intake areas. While blackened it was not caked up. It was pronouced good to go for a min of another 100,000 miles. I have seen other vehicles and many were caked beyond recognition. So I do not think a few tank fulls will cause harm, but the best is to use LSD as little as possible. Also as you are probably aware H20 in the fuel can be a huge issue, whether in or out of country, so a caution to make sure you visit a place that sells and pumps fresh D2.
I do not think anyone is NOT appreciative of your warning about speed limits in Texas. (least of all me) I had wanted to take some "non" interstates on my last trip through Texas. Believe you me, it seemed that over EVERY other rise or at the bottom of the trough before THAT next rise or municipality or even county, there was a gaggle of radar guns going off. So basically I set the cruise control 5 mph over the applicable speed limits, and the spin-off benefit; I caught up on my 56-60 mpg metrics. :lemon: :shades:
bossco, i think that the ~500 ppm Mexi-diesel could damage or constantly-trigger the "regenerate" software & hardware for/in your vehicles exhaust system. i heard reports of flame-jets being possible early-on with these vehicles when they were run on the old/dirty diesel. i think a software change has fixed the flaming-exhaust issue but not sure if regen-hardware in the exhaust will be damaged by longterm use of non-ULSD.
seems like diesel pickup trucks are available for great deals now - included in the GM incentive programs for thousands under invoice. probably some great deals on used ones too, from the white-collar dudes trading their never-seen-dirt commuter-diesel-pickups for small gasoline-powered commuter-cars! ?
"What you still fail to grasp is the structurally 20-40 % better diesel & the lack of (like model comparisons)"
Like model comparisons (same manufacturer) are not important since I will be shopping among several manufacturers. The Jetta gasser (22/29) is rather poor when it comes to mpg. Even with the 6spd trans it doesn't match the 09 Sonata which gets 22/32 on regular. The Jetta also needs premium.
Diesel fuel has only 12% more BTUs. The new Ford eco-boost engines are 15% better. That will reduce any 20 - 40% advantage to 5 - 25%. Add in the cost advantage of RUG and a gasser will be a better deal.
"Your numbers past .0346153 are made up."
No, I just pasted what the calculator listed. I figured it would generate a comment from you and it did.
"Hard for the turnip truck to miss you, as you really dont see that you are getting hit by it."
Well let's see, AAA is reporting this AM that diesel in Calif. is at $5.094 while RUG is at $4.106. The diesel owners are paying 98.8 cents more for diesel or about 25% higher prices. Who is being hit by the turnip truck?
And to get back to the question: Is anyone think they made a mistake buying a diesel powered vehicle? I've talked to one person that is not happy about diesel prices and is using the gasser car for long trips. Others are glad they did not buy a diesel pickup.
Where will diesel prices go from here? Hard to say. If refineries can expand production we would certainly see a drop in diesel prices. On the other hand, if the economy starts moving a bit faster we will see a large diesel demand from construction related activities and additional transportation of goods. Add in a few thousand more diesel car sales and we will see even more demand.
Diesel demand in Europe might be cooling now that diesel prices over there are higher than RUG (at least that is what I am hearing).
The wild card in all this is the new massive refineries that are set to come online in 2010 - 2013 in the Middle East. What will their Diesel VS. UG mix be for export?
Is anyone think they made a mistake buying a diesel powered vehicle? I've talked to one person that is not happy about diesel prices and is using the gasser car for long trips.
This is silly. The only persons who might consider their purchase a "mistake" would be the few who recently purchased diesel vehicles during the current spike in prices as they knew the facts and made their purchases anyway. For most of us, the purchase was made long before the current situation. I purchased my Beetle TDI in February 1999 when diesel prices were lower than RUG. At 165,000 miles strong, I've more than made up the $1200 cost of the TDI option and the ONLY reason I'm considering selling now is that I want a more comfortable long-range cruiser. I get an average of 45MPG; taking into consideration the difference in fuel prices I would have to buy a gas-powered vehicle that gets no less than 38MPG average and I could list those probably on one hand: Prius, Corolla, Civic, maybe a couple of Korean crackerjack boxes. The Camry Hybrid comes close but my Beetle has more soul than a Camry! So, what am I doing? Biding my time until the new Jetta TDI is here and if for some reason it doesn't appeal to me I may just wait for the new Honda Clarity-based hybrid.
Diesel fuel has only 12% more BTUs. The new Ford eco-boost engines are 15% better. That will reduce any 20 - 40% advantage to 5 - 25%. Add in the cost advantage of RUG and a gasser will be a better deal.
Which vehicles is Ford putting this eco boost engine in? I cannot find it listed here on any new vehicle. I did read some blurb where it is fast and clean. Nothing about economy. Let my know when Ford comes out with an Explorer sized SUV that gets 30 MPG on the highway and I will check it out. So far you have not posted anything on a gas vehicle that compares to its diesel counterpart. Even taking into consideration the 20% higher priced diesel fuel. I can get 50 MPG on gas in an old Honda CRX and have fun driving it. Nothing built today can compare to that.
I am thinking I could downsize to the GLK 220 CDI if it will get 35 MPG. VW will be offering their Touareg with a smaller TDI this year and that is another possibility. No gassers come close to diesel in anything I would buy on todays market.
For those folks that do most of their driving in town a small gas engine may be ok. They just do not get it out on the Interstates in the West.
When I filled up yesterday at Shell I paid. $4.15 for RUG. The Chevron across the street was $4.19 for RUG and $4.79 for diesel.
When we are talking about cost, talking in "cost per gallon" is almost irrelevant... we need to talk in terms of "cost per mile" so the comparison is equivalant.
I have a spreadsheet of EVERY drop of diesel pumped into my 2003 TDI.... over ~90,000 miles, the overall cost-per-mile for fuel is $0.05 USD.
The important thing to remember about the above number is that it represents OVERALL... not a "best-tankful" where I happened to get 60MPG. (yes-it happens!)
I dont beleive there is any gasoline-powered automobile that can beat that. (or even match it). am not even sure any of my motorcycles can beat that.
Does anyone have a "cost per mile" (real world numbers) for an efficent gasoline-powered automobile?
..."And to get back to the question: Is anyone think they made a mistake buying a diesel powered vehicle? I've talked to one person that is not happy about diesel prices and is using the gasser car for long trips. Others are glad they did not buy a diesel pickup. "...
..."Who is being hit by the turnip truck? "...
Per mile driven? Actually ALL of us are. But more so gassers. So yes there is ONE gasser that has real good per mile driven cost. But you totally ignore that there is no comparative 230-40% better diesel Prius. So you can't even acknowledge one of the real points of diesel. Even the 09 Sonata at the real world mpg is worse than the TDI. It would certainly be eclipsed by a 09 Sonata TDI. But like I said which you deny and the %'s back me up; the real diesel sippers are being excluded from the USA markets. For some reason you are pressing an almost indefensible position. Even most turnip trucks use diesel. :shades: (the one that is hitting you)
As for the new Ford product of which you speak? It is not even on the market yet. I hope for Ford's sake it is a hit. They actually could use a STRING of hits. But it has not even been in the real world to even measure what it is supposed to do. Right now there is one Ford product that I would even remotely think about buying and that is a Focus TDI. However as I have said and you deny, which again the numbers back me up, the Focus is excluded from the US markets.
"Diesel fuel has only 12% more BTUs. The new Ford eco-boost engines are 15% better. That will reduce any 20 - 40% advantage to 5 - 25%. Add in the cost advantage of RUG and a gasser will be a better deal."
Hmmm, my numbers show that diesel contains more like 13.4% more BTUs than RUG, regardless, that's only part of the story. Even the most efficient gasoline engines built today run on the rich side of stoichiometric, while even the most inefficient diesel engines ever built run on the lean side. So, while the BTU content of diesel isn't enough to negate the extra cost we're having to pay at the pumps these days, the extra efficiencies of how the fuel is converted into power should. Consider the following (SFC = gallons per kW-hour):
Hmmm, that looks like even if the new Ford mill is capable of achieving the 15% gains, it's still well shy of the 50% gains that diesel engines deliver.
"Does anyone have a "cost per mile" (real world numbers) for an efficent gasoline-powered automobile? "
No, but the variables that make it up have been posted in a number of threads for the Civic. It is easy to snap shot at any point. In the same commute the Civic gets 38-42 mpg. According to a 790 person Civic survey this figure (mine in particular) is better than 95% to 98% of Civic owners. Even at todays prices, the diesel being 450#'s heavier beats the per mile driven numbers @ 48-52 mpg. . This is despite the fact the Honda is app 450#'s lighter. If I were to "even out" the readings I should run the Civic with 450#'s more, but almost all of us would acknowledge it would drop the already good mileage. Of course those that advocate burning more is better than burning less would beg to differ. You and I would probably not be among those.
As good as the Civic is, and I understand that only 2-5% of owners get better than what we get, I would get a diesel Civic if it were available on the US market! This is an absolute no brainer for us. Needless to say Honda produces them, but they are excluded from the US market.
..."And to get back to the question: Is anyone think they made a mistake buying a diesel powered vehicle? I've talked to one person that is not happy about diesel prices and is using the gasser car for long trips"...
Have that (ONE) person get in touch with me. I'd love to pick up a good running diesel at a % drop like a rock SUV prices. :shades:
"This is silly. The only persons who might consider their purchase a "mistake" would be the few who recently purchased diesel vehicles during the current spike in prices as they knew the facts and made their purchases anyway."
No, the person (s) bought the vehicle sometime ago. The issue there is that they liked it when diesel was less than RUG. Kind of made them feel better. Now with prices the opposite.... :mad: or :sick:
One of the guys that retired right after I did, lives near Brookings SD. He was always bragging how cheap he got B20 for his F250. Do you get any biodiesel mixes in your area?
And of course I'd expect you to talk that diesel product way down. Of course you will probably tell him you have a buyer that is just about to fall off a diesel turnip truck. :P You need to really scare the living ... D2 out of him! :shades:
I did not think that my question would stir up such controversy.
Frankly, I feel that I made the right choice in 2005 when I purchased my Jeep Liberty CRD and if I had to do it again I would. My Liberty will be paid off next May. My wife and I will be looking at a new car next year. No hybrid for sure, good chance for diesel or a small Honda or Nissan. No Toyota as they are living on their reputation at this point.
As to the fuel cost situation, I live in the metro D.C. area in Maryland. I purchased fuel today for 4.549 (Shell). RUG was 4.059, PUG 4.269. Doing the math, I still have a rather distinct advantage in cost/mile over the V-6 version of the Liberty (14¢/mile @ 32 MPG highway with my CRD versus 22.5¢/mile @18 MPG with the V-6 gas Liberty).
Frankly, I feel that I made the right choice in 2005 when I purchased my Jeep Liberty CRD
I'm glad to hear you are still happy with your CRD. I was always hoping they would put that engine in the Wrangler. It would be a good combo in my opinion. I don't think many folks are unhappy with the diesels they have bought. Unless they bought a big honkin diesel PU truck and don't need it for towing. I think the Big 3 are missing the boat by not putting a smaller diesel in a 1/2 ton for out market.
I'd like to see the CRD in a minivan as well. They sell them that way over in Europe and I'm thinking that mid thirties from a minivan would be a big seller.
..."I think the Big 3 are missing the boat by not putting a smaller diesel in a 1/2 ton for out market. "...
Yes I scratch my head on this one also. SUV and PU truck sales have not been good at all for at least all of 2008. While I realize diesel sales are limited by regulators, those three oems have the lobbying horse power and torque to clear the way. To me the correct diesels engines will almost single handedly revolutionize the segment. 30-35 mpg in an SUV/Pick UP truck?? A lot of (gasser) so called compact economy cars dont even get that!!!
The engine you and others speak of is being put in the Wrangler and the Chrysler minivans as we speak. The issue as I understand it is the unwillingness of Chrysler to invest in the appropriate emissions controls for this application.
As I see it, I must agree with your statement. The big three are whining about the investment it would take to dieselize many domestically built cars and trucks. Horse Hockey!!!!! The engines are already being made in Europe and elsewhere. Just apply the appropriate emissions system and bingo, you are done.
I am becoming more convinced that the big three and big oil do not want to see diesels take off in the U.S. especially when they are shipping domestic diesel overseas so they, big oil, can turn a bigger profit on it. In the meantime, our illustrious Congress is wasting energy and time yelling at big oil, pointing fingers at everyone, but as usual they are doing nothing. I say throw all of them out!!!
Time for my defer buying a car post,again!! We need to defer purchase of a new car as long as possible, so as to get a diesel, or whatever, that will get significantly better mpg.
The other weird thing is it is not that the big three do not already have US market diesel V8's, as they have been selling the 2/3 series (250,2500,350,3500) for literaly decades.
The policy of burning more when you can burn less and howling all the time that less should be burnt is clearly continuing to be the mainstream.
Well number three, Chrysler, does not need a V-8 diesel as they have a better solution and in-line six cylinder from Cummins that works as well as the others but uses less fuel and is cleaner to boot.
The diesel used in the Ford F-250/350 series trucks is a throw away engine, in other words junk!!!! The last decent diesel in the Ford F-250/350 was the 7.3 L. For GM, their V-8 is built under license from Isuzu who makes very good diesels.
What is so frustrating is that no one has the balls to propose anything controversial that would make the U.S. less dependent on other countries. :mad:
Let me respond to a several comments with this one post
The Ford eco-boost was an example of how gasser engines are improving and may close the gap with diesels.
As far as the BTU content goes, gasoline is 124,000 BTU and diesel is 139,000 BTU. ww.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/science/energy_calculator.html Using the following formula I calculated the increase in BTUs from gasoline to diesel.
(139,000 – 124,000)/124,000 x 100 = 12.0967742 %
Here is a list of some of the main users of diesel fuel or middle distillates: Farmers – tractors and trucks. As more and more CRP land goes under the blade we can expect more diesel demand. The high food prices worldwide and the increasing ethanol production will increase the demand for diesel. Airlines – Once the economy rebounds the demand for middle distillates will increase of which diesel is a part. Construction – Increased economic activity will spur additional diesel demand. Trains – as the nations demand for coal increases we can expect more diesel trains. There is a lot of coal in WY that is far from markets. Trains will be used to transport the coal to far off power plants. Electric generators – There are a number of countries that use diesel to generate electricity. Alaska had to switch to diesel when their power line went down near Juneau and Japan is sucking up a fair amount of diesel since their Nuke plant went down. Heating oil – People in the NE use a lot of heating oil, a middle distillate. Anyone want to guess what the price of heating oil and diesel will do if they have a few cold winters? RV owners – As the baby boomer generation retires, many will want to try the RV lifestyle. The high price will deter some, but the question is, how many are well off enough that they will do it anyway.
In the event of a shortage, who will get diesel fuel first?
Do I really want to compete will all those users for diesel fuel? My answer to that is no, at least for the present.
As I write this diesel in California is at $5.11. Not only did it pass $5 it is zooming to who knows where!!!
I thought diesel would peak at about $4.50 or so in NY. So much for my big prediction. Since I am not able to estimate where diesel will be in the future I plan to sit tight. Maybe things will work out in the next few years and I'll be looking at a Honda or Subaru diesel. In the mean time, I plan to batten down the hatches.
Well for sure the (real) market are 4,6,8,10 cylinder engines, not unlike the gasser market. Two reasons why the V8 might be of note is the V8 has been one of the backbones for a very long time. Another, done well a V8 diesel can be one of the most durable engines. In todays high fuel prices, certainly there might be more emphasis on the 4/6 cylinder products.
Hey you are doing a good job! (just as there are good used car sales persons) Give a copy of your post to that diesel seller! Put the fear of D2 in him/her! Tell him how diesel will soon be replaced by RUG to PUG.
Related to your question, I talked to a farmer (relative) the other day form the NW part of our state. He generally farms durum and peas. I asked him if he produced canola. Canola is being used by our big biodiesel plant in Velva. It needs the entire ND canola crop each year to produce about 85 million gallons of biodiesel. The farmer told me that he doesn't plant canola because it is a fragile crop. It is not very resistant to hail or wind. He said that canola explodes when hit by even the slightest hail.
All this reinforced the idea that basing our fuel supply on crops, be it biodiesel or ethanol, may not be the greatest idea.
..."All this reinforced the idea that basing our fuel supply on crops, be it biodiesel or ethanol, may not be the greatest idea"...
As if we in other states do not know North Dakota gets weather extremes.(aka 4 seasons)
Based on the same reasoning, we should NOT get oil out of remote places, and any time when inclement weather is a factor. Another would be stopping all alcoholic beverage making due to the fact that alcohol can hardly be considered an essential food stuffs. Not even to mention it is a 24/7 generator of C02. :lemon:
However there are oil derricks in a few Mickey Dee's parking lots in some CA locations!!! I have even been to one! Get your life threatening happy meal and watch your oil being pumped.
The essential points are being missed, that biodiesel can be had from many different ongoing processes and to be researched new and innovative ways -renewable if you will. D2 as alternative fuel/s has been and will remain one logical choice, and easily for the next two generations. Ethanol? You really need to get the Brasilian experience. In the not too distant past they were an economic basket case due in part to the oil debacle. F/F to now!!! An economic young tiger/trigress and an economic miracle! Oil? Well you know the drill and litnany.
Another example of consuming more, when less will do, and complaining about consuming more in the processes and the slow but steady almost daily rise in RUG to PUG to D2 prices.
As you have pointed out, high priced diesel may affect US more than high priced gasoline. Many are facing a long cold winter if the prices remain high. Same goes for Propane in my area that does not have NG. Though our days of needing heat in the winter are few. We could bundle up and leave the heat off without fear of freezing to death in our sleep. I just do not see diesel cars and SUVs taking more than a couple percentage points in sales. I would buy a diesel SUV for the mileage and the added range. There are other advantages to diesel over gasoline. Diesel is easier and safer to transport than gas. Diesel emits less CO, HC and CO2. And maybe the biggest thing in the next 10 years is the ability for any diesel vehicle to use biodiesel, weather permitting.
Having owned both I prefer diesel. Those that I know that have owned both agree. The major complaints I hear about diesel is from people that were unfortunate enough to follow an old MB burning high sulfur diesel 5 years ago and that is their perception. Today they would not be able to tell a diesel Mercedes from a gasser if they were following.
Right now owning a diesel (and at 2% of the passenger vehicle fleet) is a tad like owning a custom vehicle. However D2 fuel is absolutely seamless to get. The only times I have to even remotely wait is at a "mixed" fuel station. If I go to truck stops, its a pull right up fuel immediately situation. If I have to wait in line with the big boys/girls, (and I have on a number of occasions) they normally give me the horn blast to fuel before them. (taking on 10 gals vs their more normal 250 gals plus) So on one level why would I want to upset THAT balance!?
Comments
I thought it was the other way around. Congress set up the EPA to make regulations. CARB was set up by CA legislature to make regulations. The head of CARB for years had a real vendetta against diesel engines. It was apparent in his writing. It was directed at diesel automobiles and to a much lesser degree Trucks, trains, planes & ships.
Both Toyota and GM are not that keen on diesel cars
They sell them everywhere in the world except here and Japan. Toyota would be a non player in the EU without diesel vehicles. Honda could not sell a car in the EU until they started using someone else's diesel engines. That is when they got on the ball and built their very fine diesel engines. I believe and will believe that CARB especially as they control the auto market for the whole country, have kept the regulations just far enough out there to beat the Euro emissions standards and block the sale of diesels in the USA. It may have been the oil lobby that was behind it also. Knowing they have a surplus of gas and shortage of diesel.
FWIW, shortly after I bought my last car my wife and I took a little trip in it. Given that the requirements were to keep speeds below 105 mph for the first 1,200 miles, I usually kept the cruise control somewhere south of 100. After we'd gone past the "break-in" point, I usually kept the CC set to around 125 mph, in spite of the fact that some cars were passing us somewhere north of 160. And guess what? It was all very legal and all quite safe, so please, no blathering about arrests, license suspensions and child endagerment.
By my post you can see that I am not one of them, so whom that has just fallen off turnip trucks do you think that do?
It is easier for me to operate a gasser gross polluter than to get a legal NEW diesel fresh off the boat from Europe.
What is locked is a structural 20-40% greater usage of fuel.
While I respect the expression of your opinion/s, the operative realities do NOTsupport them. The operative reality: why use less, when you can use more. Fool the majority into thinking it is cheaper (corollary doing the math will ....)
I am ok with that, I just like using less while you chose to use more.
Corner store prices for RUG PUG D2.
VW Jetta 2.0, $4.05 RUG/29 mpg= .1397 per mile driven
VW Jetta 1.8T $4.25 PUG/29 mpg= .1466 per mile driven
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI $4.99 D2/49 mpg=.10184= per mile driven
What do (you and) the overwhelming majority of gasser drivers actually chose? Which is actually cheaper?
The oil companies thank YOU for taking this survey. Probably more importantly the 98% "BETTER" choice.
VW Jetta 2.0, $4.05 RUG/29 mpg= .1397 per mile driven
VW Jetta 1.8T $4.25 PUG/29 mpg= .1466 per mile driven
VW Jetta 1.9 TDI $4.99 D2/49 mpg=.10184= per mile driven "
Yamaha C-3 $4.05 RUG/117 mpg = $0.034615384615384615384615384615385 per mile driven
Toyota Prius $4.05 RUG/45 mpg = $0.09 per mile driven
What is locked into a structural 20% greater fuel cost - diesel. Watch out for the turnip truck. :shades:
Yamaha C3- same thing.20-40 % diesel is still better Too bad no diesel. Your numbers past .0346153 are made up. Just as the dialing out of diesel products is made up. But you knew that!
So now you understand fully why America fights for European oil in the middle east, when it really doesn't have to! :lemon:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speed_limits_in_the_United_States
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The above statement is a false. At most 10% of the Texas Interstates have an allowable speed of 80MPH half of the time - the other half of the time it is 75MPH, or less, as it is on 90% of the rest of the Texas Interstates, (and all of the rest of the US Interstates) 100% of the time. The 80MPH % of Texas interstates comes out to more than the equivalent diesel passenger vehicle use in the US - which has nothing to do with anything, but at this point why break the prevailing theme?
The interstate I I went 80 mph was stated at 80 mph. NO claim was made as to ALL the interstates being 80 mph was made. so YOUR statement is false. All interstates are posted as to what they are. But you know that, just as anyone else should know that. The" false ness" is in your mind. It would be no different than if I said 65 mph is the limit on the interstate. There are some places where 70 mph is the speed limit on the interstate- adjust accordingly, but you know that.
Most of time the cars are doing Zero, notwithstanding the rotational speed of the Earth, its speed around the sun, and the expansion speed of the universe, which seems to vary depending on the whim of local municipalities - except in Texas where it is whatever you want it to be because "false ness" is in your mind, as of course is Texas.
seems like diesel pickup trucks are available for great deals now - included in the GM incentive programs for thousands under invoice. probably some great deals on used ones too, from the white-collar dudes trading their never-seen-dirt commuter-diesel-pickups for small gasoline-powered commuter-cars! ?
Like model comparisons (same manufacturer) are not important since I will be shopping among several manufacturers. The Jetta gasser (22/29) is rather poor when it comes to mpg. Even with the 6spd trans it doesn't match the 09 Sonata which gets 22/32 on regular. The Jetta also needs premium.
Diesel fuel has only 12% more BTUs. The new Ford eco-boost engines are 15% better. That will reduce any 20 - 40% advantage to 5 - 25%. Add in the cost advantage of RUG and a gasser will be a better deal.
"Your numbers past .0346153 are made up."
No, I just pasted what the calculator listed. I figured it would generate a comment from you and it did.
"Hard for the turnip truck to miss you, as you really dont see that you are getting hit by it."
Well let's see, AAA is reporting this AM that diesel in Calif. is at $5.094 while RUG is at $4.106. The diesel owners are paying 98.8 cents more for diesel or about 25% higher prices. Who is being hit by the turnip truck?
And to get back to the question: Is anyone think they made a mistake buying a diesel powered vehicle? I've talked to one person that is not happy about diesel prices and is using the gasser car for long trips. Others are glad they did not buy a diesel pickup.
Where will diesel prices go from here? Hard to say. If refineries can expand production we would certainly see a drop in diesel prices. On the other hand, if the economy starts moving a bit faster we will see a large diesel demand from construction related activities and additional transportation of goods. Add in a few thousand more diesel car sales and we will see even more demand.
Diesel demand in Europe might be cooling now that diesel prices over there are higher than RUG (at least that is what I am hearing).
The wild card in all this is the new massive refineries that are set to come online in 2010 - 2013 in the Middle East. What will their Diesel VS. UG mix be for export?
This is silly. The only persons who might consider their purchase a "mistake" would be the few who recently purchased diesel vehicles during the current spike in prices as they knew the facts and made their purchases anyway. For most of us, the purchase was made long before the current situation. I purchased my Beetle TDI in February 1999 when diesel prices were lower than RUG. At 165,000 miles strong, I've more than made up the $1200 cost of the TDI option and the ONLY reason I'm considering selling now is that I want a more comfortable long-range cruiser. I get an average of 45MPG; taking into consideration the difference in fuel prices I would have to buy a gas-powered vehicle that gets no less than 38MPG average and I could list those probably on one hand: Prius, Corolla, Civic, maybe a couple of Korean crackerjack boxes. The Camry Hybrid comes close but my Beetle has more soul than a Camry! So, what am I doing? Biding my time until the new Jetta TDI is here and if for some reason it doesn't appeal to me I may just wait for the new Honda Clarity-based hybrid.
Which vehicles is Ford putting this eco boost engine in? I cannot find it listed here on any new vehicle. I did read some blurb where it is fast and clean. Nothing about economy. Let my know when Ford comes out with an Explorer sized SUV that gets 30 MPG on the highway and I will check it out. So far you have not posted anything on a gas vehicle that compares to its diesel counterpart. Even taking into consideration the 20% higher priced diesel fuel. I can get 50 MPG on gas in an old Honda CRX and have fun driving it. Nothing built today can compare to that.
I am thinking I could downsize to the GLK 220 CDI if it will get 35 MPG. VW will be offering their Touareg with a smaller TDI this year and that is another possibility. No gassers come close to diesel in anything I would buy on todays market.
For those folks that do most of their driving in town a small gas engine may be ok. They just do not get it out on the Interstates in the West.
When I filled up yesterday at Shell I paid. $4.15 for RUG. The Chevron across the street was $4.19 for RUG and $4.79 for diesel.
I have a spreadsheet of EVERY drop of diesel pumped into my 2003 TDI.... over ~90,000 miles, the overall cost-per-mile for fuel is $0.05 USD.
The important thing to remember about the above number is that it represents OVERALL... not a "best-tankful" where I happened to get 60MPG. (yes-it happens!)
I dont beleive there is any gasoline-powered automobile that can beat that. (or even match it). am not even sure any of my motorcycles can beat that.
Does anyone have a "cost per mile" (real world numbers) for an efficent gasoline-powered automobile?
..."Who is being hit by the turnip truck? "...
Per mile driven? Actually ALL of us are. But more so gassers. So yes there is ONE gasser that has real good per mile driven cost. But you totally ignore that there is no comparative 230-40% better diesel Prius. So you can't even acknowledge one of the real points of diesel. Even the 09 Sonata at the real world mpg is worse than the TDI. It would certainly be eclipsed by a 09 Sonata TDI. But like I said which you deny and the %'s back me up; the real diesel sippers are being excluded from the USA markets. For some reason you are pressing an almost indefensible position. Even most turnip trucks use diesel. :shades: (the one that is hitting you)
As for the new Ford product of which you speak? It is not even on the market yet. I hope for Ford's sake it is a hit. They actually could use a STRING of hits. But it has not even been in the real world to even measure what it is supposed to do. Right now there is one Ford product that I would even remotely think about buying and that is a Focus TDI. However as I have said and you deny, which again the numbers back me up, the Focus is excluded from the US markets.
Hmmm, my numbers show that diesel contains more like 13.4% more BTUs than RUG, regardless, that's only part of the story. Even the most efficient gasoline engines built today run on the rich side of stoichiometric, while even the most inefficient diesel engines ever built run on the lean side. So, while the BTU content of diesel isn't enough to negate the extra cost we're having to pay at the pumps these days, the extra efficiencies of how the fuel is converted into power should. Consider the following (SFC = gallons per kW-hour):
Typical Otto cycle gasoline engine SFC: 300
2000's vintage VW/Audi TDI engine SFC: 198-205
Hmmm, that looks like even if the new Ford mill is capable of achieving the 15% gains, it's still well shy of the 50% gains that diesel engines deliver.
Best Regards,
Shipo
No, but the variables that make it up have been posted in a number of threads for the Civic. It is easy to snap shot at any point. In the same commute the Civic gets 38-42 mpg. According to a 790 person Civic survey this figure (mine in particular) is better than 95% to 98% of Civic owners. Even at todays prices, the diesel being 450#'s heavier beats the per mile driven numbers @ 48-52 mpg. . This is despite the fact the Honda is app 450#'s lighter. If I were to "even out" the readings I should run the Civic with 450#'s more, but almost all of us would acknowledge it would drop the already good mileage. Of course those that advocate burning more is better than burning less would beg to differ. You and I would probably not be among those.
As good as the Civic is, and I understand that only 2-5% of owners get better than what we get, I would get a diesel Civic if it were available on the US market! This is an absolute no brainer for us. Needless to say Honda produces them, but they are excluded from the US market.
Have that (ONE) person get in touch with me. I'd love to pick up a good running diesel at a % drop like a rock SUV prices. :shades:
I'd love to pick up a good running diesel at a % drop like a rock SUV prices.
Me too, I cannot find a bargain on a diesel here in CA even with the high diesel prices.
I'll let you know if they decide to sell.
No, the person (s) bought the vehicle sometime ago. The issue there is that they liked it when diesel was less than RUG. Kind of made them feel better. Now with prices the opposite.... :mad: or :sick:
And of course I'd expect you to talk that diesel product way down. Of course you will probably tell him you have a buyer that is just about to fall off a diesel turnip truck. :P You need to really scare the living ... D2 out of him!
Frankly, I feel that I made the right choice in 2005 when I purchased my Jeep Liberty CRD and if I had to do it again I would. My Liberty will be paid off next May. My wife and I will be looking at a new car next year. No hybrid for sure, good chance for diesel or a small Honda or Nissan. No Toyota as they are living on their reputation at this point.
As to the fuel cost situation, I live in the metro D.C. area in Maryland. I purchased fuel today for 4.549 (Shell). RUG was 4.059, PUG 4.269. Doing the math, I still have a rather distinct advantage in cost/mile over the V-6 version of the Liberty (14¢/mile @ 32 MPG highway with my CRD versus 22.5¢/mile @18 MPG with the V-6 gas Liberty).
I'm glad to hear you are still happy with your CRD. I was always hoping they would put that engine in the Wrangler. It would be a good combo in my opinion. I don't think many folks are unhappy with the diesels they have bought. Unless they bought a big honkin diesel PU truck and don't need it for towing. I think the Big 3 are missing the boat by not putting a smaller diesel in a 1/2 ton for out market.
Best Regards,
Shipo
Yes I scratch my head on this one also. SUV and PU truck sales have not been good at all for at least all of 2008. While I realize diesel sales are limited by regulators, those three oems have the lobbying horse power and torque to clear the way. To me the correct diesels engines will almost single handedly revolutionize the segment. 30-35 mpg in an SUV/Pick UP truck?? A lot of (gasser) so called compact economy cars dont even get that!!!
As I see it, I must agree with your statement. The big three are whining about the investment it would take to dieselize many domestically built cars and trucks. Horse Hockey!!!!! The engines are already being made in Europe and elsewhere. Just apply the appropriate emissions system and bingo, you are done.
I am becoming more convinced that the big three and big oil do not want to see diesels take off in the U.S. especially when they are shipping domestic diesel overseas so they, big oil, can turn a bigger profit on it. In the meantime, our illustrious Congress is wasting energy and time yelling at big oil, pointing fingers at everyone, but as usual they are doing nothing. I say throw all of them out!!!
The policy of burning more when you can burn less and howling all the time that less should be burnt is clearly continuing to be the mainstream.
The diesel used in the Ford F-250/350 series trucks is a throw away engine, in other words junk!!!! The last decent diesel in the Ford F-250/350 was the 7.3 L. For GM, their V-8 is built under license from Isuzu who makes very good diesels.
What is so frustrating is that no one has the balls to propose anything controversial that would make the U.S. less dependent on other countries. :mad:
No, I would send the person (s) to this forum so you folks could make them feel better.
The Ford eco-boost was an example of how gasser engines are improving and may close the gap with diesels.
As far as the BTU content goes, gasoline is 124,000 BTU and diesel is 139,000 BTU.
ww.eia.doe.gov/kids/energyfacts/science/energy_calculator.html
Using the following formula I calculated the increase in BTUs from gasoline to diesel.
(139,000 – 124,000)/124,000 x 100 = 12.0967742 %
Here is a list of some of the main users of diesel fuel or middle distillates:
Farmers – tractors and trucks. As more and more CRP land goes under the blade we can expect more diesel demand. The high food prices worldwide and the increasing ethanol production will increase the demand for diesel.
Airlines – Once the economy rebounds the demand for middle distillates will increase of which diesel is a part.
Construction – Increased economic activity will spur additional diesel demand.
Trains – as the nations demand for coal increases we can expect more diesel trains. There is a lot of coal in WY that is far from markets. Trains will be used to transport the coal to far off power plants.
Electric generators – There are a number of countries that use diesel to generate electricity. Alaska had to switch to diesel when their power line went down near Juneau and Japan is sucking up a fair amount of diesel since their Nuke plant went down.
Heating oil – People in the NE use a lot of heating oil, a middle distillate. Anyone want to guess what the price of heating oil and diesel will do if they have a few cold winters?
RV owners – As the baby boomer generation retires, many will want to try the RV lifestyle. The high price will deter some, but the question is, how many are well off enough that they will do it anyway.
In the event of a shortage, who will get diesel fuel first?
Do I really want to compete will all those users for diesel fuel? My answer to that is no, at least for the present.
As I write this diesel in California is at $5.11. Not only did it pass $5 it is zooming to who knows where!!!
I thought diesel would peak at about $4.50 or so in NY. So much for my big prediction. Since I am not able to estimate where diesel will be in the future I plan to sit tight. Maybe things will work out in the next few years and I'll be looking at a Honda or Subaru diesel. In the mean time, I plan to batten down the hatches.
At first I was not sure, having never purchased diesel. But the all knowing internet had the answer for me in about 10 seconds.
http://www.biodiesel.org/buyingbiodiesel/retailfuelingsites/showstate.asp?st=ND
The answer to that would be yes. At least one station has a B5 mix.
Related to your question, I talked to a farmer (relative) the other day form the NW part of our state. He generally farms durum and peas. I asked him if he produced canola. Canola is being used by our big biodiesel plant in Velva. It needs the entire ND canola crop each year to produce about 85 million gallons of biodiesel. The farmer told me that he doesn't plant canola because it is a fragile crop. It is not very resistant to hail or wind. He said that canola explodes when hit by even the slightest hail.
All this reinforced the idea that basing our fuel supply on crops, be it biodiesel or ethanol, may not be the greatest idea.
As if we in other states do not know North Dakota gets weather extremes.(aka 4 seasons)
Based on the same reasoning, we should NOT get oil out of remote places, and any time when inclement weather is a factor. Another would be stopping all alcoholic beverage making due to the fact that alcohol can hardly be considered an essential food stuffs. Not even to mention it is a 24/7 generator of C02.
However there are oil derricks in a few Mickey Dee's parking lots in some CA locations!!!
The essential points are being missed, that biodiesel can be had from many different ongoing processes and to be researched new and innovative ways -renewable if you will. D2 as alternative fuel/s has been and will remain one logical choice, and easily for the next two generations. Ethanol? You really need to get the Brasilian experience. In the not too distant past they were an economic basket case due in part to the oil debacle. F/F to now!!! An economic young tiger/trigress and an economic miracle! Oil? Well you know the drill and litnany.
Another example of consuming more, when less will do, and complaining about consuming more in the processes and the slow but steady almost daily rise in RUG to PUG to D2 prices.
Having owned both I prefer diesel. Those that I know that have owned both agree. The major complaints I hear about diesel is from people that were unfortunate enough to follow an old MB burning high sulfur diesel 5 years ago and that is their perception. Today they would not be able to tell a diesel Mercedes from a gasser if they were following.