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Diesels in the News

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Comments

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    Sorry am I missing something? Gasser Cruze's seem to MSRP from 16,500 to 22,222.
  • houdini1houdini1 Kansas City areaPosts: 7,909
    I'm exaggerating a bit, but they do seem to price the diesels much higher than gassers. I guess if you want to save money it's gonna cost you !

    2013 LX 570 2016 LS 460

  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited July 2011
    It is uncertain how later model (VW's in this example) diesels will fare in the used car market. But for a 03 Jetta TDI, (as I remember it) the premium was $246 to 286 or so OVER the 1.8 T gasser. FF to todays' used car price on edmunds: 6,039-7262-8829 TDI to 4034-4960-6141 1.8T, respectively. I also know that in most markets the TDI sell at premiums to this even. So by edmunds, we are talking a range of $1,995 to $2,688 more for a 246 to 286 initial premium.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    I think it is safe to say the resale of a diesel car will more than make up the initial cost difference. Diesel PU trucks are not quite as good. They do bring more money. I don't think they hold as well as the VW TDI cars do. Too many unknowns with how a diesel PU was used. That and an outrageous initial premium of as much as $7000 for a diesel PU truck.

    When I bought my 2005 Passat TDI, it was less than the V6 version. And more enjoyable driving out on the open road. If well maintained that Passat Wagon GLS TDI will bring more than the same Passat with 4Motion and a V6 in trade.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited July 2011
    I would tend to think the numbers back up your assertion. I also think that TDI pick up trucks are both far too logical and a slam dunk. There are many reasons. If they really want to ramp up selling them, either drop the premium altogether or precipituously. American oems know they are the only game in town (US markets, aka "light" ( but HEAVY) trucks).

    I also priced a (used) 09 Jetta TDI.

    Essentially a (2 going on 3 MY) used one sells for $300 more than what was paid for it, ... new. By way of 20/20 hindsight (despite the now app $4000 to 5,000 premium to gasser : aka a TDI is essentially a gasser SE) it is following in the 03's footsteps.
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... Two years ??? !!!; it might depend on how thrifty these direct injection gasoline engines are. Or how much more efficient they can be built. That seems to be an awful long time in this day of "world" sourcing.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited July 2011
    Sorry I am confused by your post?

    Why is resale values @ 2 years too long? Or too short? I also gave examples of cost per mile driven, both for those gasoline and diesel engines. (located in What Would It Take For You To Drive A Diesel Car?) Why is two years an awfully long time and for what?
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... Two years for Chevy to put a compression ignition, oil burner, in the showroom. I probably should have replied to another post.
  • vchiuvchiu PARIS, FRANCEPosts: 564
    with anticipation.

    Last year, the VW TDI model was very clearly distanced by the Prius, whereas previous year result showed a much less thirsty Jetta.
    Naturally, there is a big performance gap between the Toy and the VW, but i would expect closer FE figures.

    Performance wise, the true contender to the Prius is the 1.6 TDI that I am lucky to use from time to time. I think it would make real sense for VW to introduce this model in the US as not everyone may be looking for strong figures when buying a car.

    I guess the problem is the price. I am sure the 1.6 is not much cheaper to manufacture than the 2.0 and VW of America certainly don't have the fat margins they live with in Europe.

    However, going 45MPG real world with no specific care may be appealing more and more in this time of increasing petrol prices.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited July 2011
    ..."Performance wise, the true contender to the Prius is the 1.6 TDI "...

    That about says it all.

    The 1.4 TDI is not available on the US market, nor have I driven it, so I can only take your word for it. There are a myriad of European car choices that can out mpg the Prius. As expensive as fuel is in Europe, Prius does NOT sell well in Europe. It sells here albeit, not gangbusters, probably because a series of influences, makes it one of a very few that (currently) gets over 45 mpg. So really the US/states legislature/s as evidenced in the US auto markets are not at all serious about mpg. We don't need new mpg standards, we just need cars that actually post better mpg numbers.

    The current TDI's and actually past ones also have never been Prius competitors except in mpg, where the old ones bested the Prius's mpg(03/04 MY)

    The current Jetta and 2012 Passat TDI's real equivalent is really the Camry Hybrid. As such the TDI best it in power (torque) price AND mpg.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    ruking1 says, "The current Jetta and 2012 Passat TDI's real equivalent is really the Camry Hybrid. As such the TDI best it in power (torque) price AND mpg."

    You KEEP saying that, but repetition does not make it true.

    The Jetta TDIs are advertised as HIGH MILEAGE VEHICLES.

    The TCH is NOT in such a category.

    I'll go with you most of the way if you say the Passat TDI is a Camry competitor, because it's closer in size, target market, and MPG.

    But the Jetta TDI is DEFINITELY NOT in the same category as the TCH. It's a smaller car with a different target buyer. People are getting 50+ MPG in the Jetta, and nowhere near that in the TCH. The Jetta competes with the PRIUS.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    But the Jetta TDI is DEFINITELY NOT in the same category as the TCH. It's a smaller car with a different target buyer. People are getting 50+ MPG in the Jetta, and nowhere near that in the TCH. The Jetta competes with the PRIUS.

    I think as I am ruking considers the Sportswagen TDI as the competitor to the TCH.

    Interior volume for each
    Sportswagen TDI = 124.5 cu ft
    Toyota TCH = 112 cu ft
    Toyota Prius = 115.3 cu ft.

    I may agree with you that they are not shopped by the same people. Most of the time people will consider a German car it is for the engineering and handling. The great mileage of the TDI is like putting whipped cream on a strawberry cake. The TCH and Prius are purely driving appliances for the masses. If I was cross shopping the Sportswagen it would be with the Subaru Outback. Toyota really has nothing to compare. Unfortunately Subaru is being dragged down by their Toyota ownership. They have a good diesel if they can get their act together and bring it to America. Right now it looks like Mazda may sneak in and steal some diesel thunder. First Asian automaker with a diesel offering will make a killing.

    I am rooting for Subaru as I like the Outback. Just not their lousy CVT.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Well, you are comparing a wagon to a sedan. Not apples to apples.

    Passenger volume for the Jetta Sedan: 92.4 cu ft.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited July 2011
    By "normal" standards, I would agree with your assertion of the TDI being a "high mpg vehicle". Prius is still NOT a competitor of the Jetta TDI, despite Prius owners and probably Toyota to artificially link them. World wide, the TDI sales literally outstrip Prius sales. Again, I really have nothing against Prius. However given the alternatives, I still (9 to 12 years of improvements) would not get one.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Here's why they are competitors in the USA:

    You want a car that can "realistically" get 50+ MPG on the highway?

    Two options:

    1. Prius
    2. Jetta TDI

    That's it.

    That's why they compete HERE. I don't as much care about what goes on elsewhere in regard to this comparison...
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    edited July 2011
    You are basing that on one thing mileage. As you say putting a wagon up against a sedan is not apples to apples. By the same criteria, putting a fine German driving machine up against a poor excuse for a road car like the Prius is not realistic.

    By your terms there are no comparables to any of the vehicles mentioned.

    The Prius would be best compared to the Leaf or Volt. Niche type vehicles. :blush:
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    You mean like the niche in which the Jetta TDI appears?

    "People who want high-mileage diesel sedans which have poor reliability ratings?"

    Look, it's obvious that no one buys the Jetta TDI because it's a sports car. (because it ain't one.)
    And they don't buy it because of VW's great reputation for selling reliable cars. (because they have just the opposite reputation.)

    They buy it for the superior fuel mileage. Just as people don't buy the Prius for anything except high mileage.

    Anyone that thinks otherwise has biases which interfere with their clear, coherent thought.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited July 2011
    Actually that seems to be one of main reasons for buying a Prius. When faced with those buying decisions (three times the Prius was in the mix and three times the Prius MY's) were passed over for other cars, specifically 2 TDI's and a Civic. To my knowledg,e VW Jetta was never advertised as a sports car. You and I both know there are (minoirty) segments of TDI owners that likes to come as close to that ideal (sports car) as possible, but then again, they are a small minority, even as an aggregate. The fact they are doing that does not interupt clear or coherent thought. It is probably interesting to note: in passing, I have not read too much about Prius "hotrodding" .
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    Deadhorse, Alaska/Herndon, Va. – July 20, 2011 – On July 13, after 11 days, 17 hours and 22 minutes of non-stop driving, renowned adventurer and off-road driver Rainer Zietlow and his team set a new world record certified by Tüv Nord Mobility for driving the length of the Pan-American Highway as they crossed the road’s end in Deadhorse, Alaska. The TDI-Panamericana Endurance Challenge team covered 14 countries and nearly 16,000 miles in a 2011 Volkswagen Touareg TDI® Clean Diesel SUV. Their journey to commemorate the 75th Anniversary of the Pan-American Highway’s establishment breaks the previous record by more than three days.

    Zietlow chose the Touareg TDI® Clean Diesel for its durability, high-performance and long-range fuel efficiency. Its turbocharged 3.0L V6 TDI® engine delivers 225 horsepower and 406 lb-ft of torque and is designed to perform on rugged terrain and mixed road surfaces at varying altitudes. The clean diesel Touareg consumes 30 percent less fuel and produces up to 25 percent lower CO2 emissions than comparable gasoline vehicles.

    “Volkswagen congratulates the Challenge4 Team on their success,” said Rainer Michel, vice president of product marketing, Volkswagen of America. “We knew that the Volkswagen Touareg TDI® Clean Diesel SUV could be pushed to unimaginable limits. The completion of the TDI-Panamericana Endurance Challenge in record-setting time demonstrates the vehicle’s durability, reliability, comfort and fuel-efficiency. This is a great vehicle for adventurers, driving enthusiasts and families alike.”

    From August 1 through August 30, Zietlow will drive the record-setting Touareg to Volkswagen dealerships across the nation where interested public can watch a movie about his journey and look inside the vehicle. To see the tour schedule, please visit www.tdi-panamericana.com.


    http://thinkblue.vw.com/16000-miles-14-countries-3-people-1-world-record-rainer-- and-team-complete-the-tdi-panamericana-challenge-in-record-time/

    Still waiting to hear the final tally for mileage. They had to do a lot of 80-90 MPH driving to maintain an overall 56+ MPH.
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... GM just confirmed, Diesel Cruze, 2013, in the Detroit News, a half hour ago.
  • coontie66coontie66 Posts: 110
    I can wait 14 months for a USA diesel vehicle. I will just have to go look at it and see how big it really is. Looking forward to more NEWS on this one.
  • gogogodzillagogogodzilla VirginiaPosts: 707
    I believe it when I see it. I remember when Honda was talking of bringing a diesel Accord to the states... and we can all see that it ain't here.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited July 2011
    As a prior small turbo (Garrett) diesel (1.9 to 2.0 L) engine consumer, I would want to get the 411 on who is producing the product for the Chevrolet Cruze. THEN the US version literally has NO track record in its intended markets.

    Not to sing the praises of the VW TDI, BUT it has been pretty bullet proof over some time (10 years) and many miles. In fact, I would see it as heads and shoulders more durable and reliable than almost any gasser engine VW makes. Keep in mind that w/w VW is second only to Toyota.

    I would also agree with gogogodzilla, many big names have indicated turbo diesels and have for one reason or another decided it was not worth the hassle.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    Don't forget Subaru promised their Boxer diesel in 2008, to be here in 2-3 years. It was already rated by the EPA for mileage. 33 MPG city, 49 MPG highway, according to wiki.

    I'm with you. So far the only ones to come to the plate and deliver the home runs are the Germans. Not counting the fire breathing diesel PU trucks we build.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited July 2011
    This might be label as TMI (too much information), but essentially there is no real "engine difference" between the VW's 1.9 L and 2.0 L engines. The latest 2.0 is bigger, but that is really due to the fact the compression ratio has been dropped from 19.1 to 16.1. One compensation being (slightly bigger) engine displacement. There are other reasons, but that is really TMI.
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... Go ahead Ru; I am a motor head.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    Nice......

    http://www.extremetech.com/extreme/90434-2012-vw-passat-brings-hybrid-beating-di- esel-tech-stateside

    Imagine driving Chicago to Atlanta, or Seattle to Napa Valley, without refueling, in a roomy car. It’s possible if you switch from gasoline to diesel technology and set the cruise control to 65 or 70 on the interstate. That makes the diesel engine version of the new 2012 Volkswagen Passat (about $26,000) more desirable than the gasoline powered Passats that 80% of Americans will buy, and with its excellent fuel economy, perhaps more desirable than hybrids like the Prius, too. Diesel engines used to be loud, smelly, dirty, and slow, but technology has cured those problems. Now it’s simply a perception problem for VW, Audi, BMW, Mercedes-Benz and others selling diesel passenger cars.
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited July 2011
    Larsb's post actually is a opaque demonstration of how "bullet proof" the 1.9 L to 2.0 L engine really is. It has been put in across models; such as Passat, Jetta, Golf, NB, JSW, to name a few. I am probably leaving out a lot. It also has industrial generator applications. The old vililfied diesel notion has really been gone for a minimum of a decade, if not two. The US markets have literally banned to severely limited diesels, so to keep alive an old vilification.

    All the while, VW has made "constant improvements" to the TDI 2.0 L engine. Now, here is another: little known and hardly believed is the notion that the new oil standard for the VW turbo diesel 507.00 is a 30,000 miles oil change interval OCI (30,000 to 50,000 kms for you across the pond folks). PDS Total Quartz INEO VW 507.00 5w30 Needless to say plenty of engineering has gone into this now ubiquitious specification (since 2004). But really I have been running 20,000 miles OCI's, even with LSD. With the mandatory switch to ULSD, I now run 25,000 OCI's. My last one to current one (OCI's) are at 30,700 miles.

    VWA (Americal) continues to recommend 10,000 miles intervals to appease VW dealerships, so they do not mimic the Maytag repairmen concept of old. VW dealers like to sell shorter intervals, like 5,000 miles.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    edited July 2011
    Don't forget the Green car of the year for 2010 the Audi A3 also shares that same 2.0L TDI. Great engine. It is available in most of the World in many vehicles. Including the Tiguan which would fit my needs. Maybe by 2013 it will show up here.

    PS
    The A4 Allroad with that engine would be my choice.
  • oli1oli1 Posts: 33
    Last month I drove from SoCal (Torrance) to Redding California on 1 tank in my Audi A3 TDI, Cruise set at 75. Imagine how far i would have gotten at 65mph.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    That's about 600 miles.

    Just sayin': I could to that in my TCH. I've gotten as much as 621 miles on my 17-gallon tank. My TCH stickered at 26K.

    But to your point: yes, you could have gotten about 15% better mileage at 65 MPH, based on this website:

    http://www.mpgforspeed.com/
  • ruking1ruking1 Posts: 19,825
    edited July 2011
    So what was your mpg?

    I had to fudge the numbers a bit (using the posted calculator) in that I can get (known and duplicated) 59 mpg @ 75 mpg with bursts to 80-85 mph. The calculator puts my 55 mph mpg @ 77 mpg.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    2011 Mercedes-Benz E350 Bluetec Sedan, an AutoWeek Drivers Log Car Review

    http://www.autoweek.com/article/20110727/CARREVIEWS/110729897?utm_source=DailyDr- ive20110727&utm_medium=enewsletter&utm_term=article1more&utm_content=20110727-20- 11_Mercedes-Benz_E350_Bluetec_Sedan,_an_AutoWeek_Drivers_Log_Car_Review&utm_camp- aign=awdailydrive

    By MAC MORRISON on 7/27/2011
    Related Articles

    2012 Mercedes-Benz M-class, an AutoWeek Flash Drive Car Review
    Chevrolet to market diesel-powered Cruze in U.S., report says
    VW launches 'Think Blue' campaign to pitch green initiatives
    Audi to bring more diesels to U.S. market
    2011 BMW 525d Touring, an AW Flash Drive
    MOTORSPORTS EDITOR MAC MORRISON: For about a $1,500 premium (comparing base prices) over the V6-powered E350, you can drive this diesel-powered 2011 Mercedes-Benz E350 Bluetec that--according to its EPA rating--returns mileage of 22 highway/33 city with a turbocharged V6 that makes 210 hp and 400-lb-ft of torque. For comparison, the normally aspirated, gasoline-burning six-cylinder makes 268 hp and 258 lb-ft--and is rated at 17/24 mpg.

    With gasoline prices at today's level, the E350 Bluetec is a solid option, and depending on how many miles you cover per year, you could pay yourself back for the diesel engine relatively quickly. I would choose this engine without hesitation.

    Less impressive is the driving experience, which is normally smooth and comfortable as you would expect but far from inspiring. While many of Mercedes' latest products have made a nice step in terms of response, this E-class rolls into corners lazily, and if you are inclined to give it a bit of stick just for fun, the dull and slow steering puts the brakes on your enthusiasm real fast.

    This is an ultimate cruiser in the traditional M-B mold, plain and simple--comfortable and strong, with the required amount of perceived panache. It's just not exciting in any way.

  • alltorquealltorque Posts: 535
    A little story from the U.K. A friend of mine owns a software company and used to own one of the last air-cooled Porsche 911 Turbo's - a beast. However, a combination of rock-hard suspension and very firm seating was exarcebating his already troublesome back, so his doctor said "Either the car goes or you eventually buy a wheelchair". Nice. So, he changed to an Aston Martin DB9. Bit better for the back but didn't have the "soul" of the 911, apparently. Now he's finally grown up and bought an Audi A8 3.0 TDi. Once a month he drives to Geneva, (Switzerland), on business - more fun and more flexible than flying plus less security hassle. He fills up near home in Birmingham UK then refills on the outskirts of Geneva..........no fill ups in between. He then toddles around Geneva for a couple of days and drives home, where he again fills up at his local fuel station. He is delighted with everything about the car; especially the comfort and economy. Not only that but he is no longer a target for any speed cops or envy merchants and his customers view him as a "serious" businessman, not a boy racer. Took him a while to get around to a diesel but he's a total convert.

    On the other hand, his wife - CEO of the company - drives a Jaguar XKR which returns an eye-watering 14mpg, (Imperial), overall. :cry: In fairness, she does do a lot of town driving and has a suprisingly heavy right foot for such a petite lady.
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    Thru August of 2011 sales of diesel vehicles are up 37%.

    diesel vehicle sales thu August
  • vchiuvchiu PARIS, FRANCEPosts: 564
    ... in France.
    A friend of mine, executive for a US corporation, ordered one as company car.

    image

    Delivery scheduled for January 2012.

    I guess the specs have already ben published in this forum, so I will just mention that the top of the line model with leather, large sunroof and HUD was selected.
    We will see if this live up to the expectation set by a promise of 62 MPG overall.

    Forgot the price : EUR40K, that is about 55K USD. Quite an amount indeed.
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    Just checking the specs on that CUV. It is about half a foot shorter than a Honda CR-V. 62 MPG is nothing to scoff at for sure. I could give up a little room for that kind of mileage. Not likely to be sold here in our lifetime.

    image
  • vchiuvchiu PARIS, FRANCEPosts: 564
    Well I know this weights like 3750 Lbs so I guess this is not bad a mileage for a start.
    real life first drives seem to show it is doing pretty well around town.
    However, on the road, air and tire drag prevail. Moreover, electric powertrain is not operating above 75 mph in order to preserve the battery.
    Real town MPG is in the high 40s while open road mpg would rather be in the higher 30s.
    0-62 MPH is announce at 8.5s.

    All in all, it seems the closest US equivalent would be the Toyota camry hybrid. same power (around 200 HP) and , I speculate, same internal accomodation volume albeit stretched over a longer body. rear luggage space is around 420 Liter (13 Cubic feet?)
  • tifightertifighter WAPosts: 2,411
  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    I cannot see where TAC made their case. They obviously are pro hybrid, anti diesel. The percentages are not meant to be of the total fleet of cars. I recall some Prius fanatics pushing the percent increase in sales when they were only selling a few cars a year as well. I am just glad to see more choices with diesel power. If the 27% increase in diesel cars sold in 2011 over 2010, encourages the automakers to bring more choices, we are all better off. I for one am not giving up my gas guzzling SUV until someone offers a better choice. Likely it will be a diesel.
  • tifightertifighter WAPosts: 2,411
    I appreciate that they point out that the story, which was reported in many papers/blogs etc verbatim (with no disclosure) was, in fact, a press release from a consortium that has an interest in diesel success. Doesn't necessarily make the figures wrong, but its good to know where the news is coming from.

    As for me, I could care less about hybrids, etc. TTAC is not pro-hybrid and their readers especially not; read their content overall. Besides, being pro-hybrid doesn't automatically make one anti-diesel; this isn't Congress...

    Tesla X Performance / Tesla 3 Performance

  • gagricegagrice Pahrump, NevadaPosts: 31,443
    I guess a better subject would be how does diesel manufacturing impact the USA in comparison to Hybrid Vehicles? I am just interested in getting better mileage without sacrificing too much. Diesel is the best answer. The USA needs to move into the 21st century. And not let the EU eat our lunch on diesel automotive technology.

    New Economic Report Finds Diesel Industry Provides $480 Billion In Value and 1.25 Million Jobs To U.S. Economy

    http://www.dieselforum.org/index.cfm?objectid=E1C9626E-E94D-11E0-947A000C296BA16- 3
  • moparbadmoparbad Posts: 3,870
    hybridCARS.com has the SAME numbers. They are not a diesel advocacy group. by the numbers
    Diesel up 27% and Hybrid down 2.2%.

    Sometimes the numbers just are what they are.

    Following the link you posted I really don't give credibility to profanity laced posts from someone who states they got a D in math. They also deserve a F in communication.
  • coontie66coontie66 Posts: 110
    They are probably part of the Occupy Wall Street bunch. I have heard several of them here talk and explain what they want and are about and its still a mystery.
  • roland3roland3 Posts: 431
    ... Diesel Power mag, says Chevy sold 33 thou of these last year in the Diesel areas of the planet, The engine will come from Torino Italy and or assembly or engineering in Michigan.
  • larsblarsb Posts: 8,204
    http://www.smartplanet.com/blog/thinking-tech/believe-it-new-sports-car-goes-200- -mph-gets-70-mpg/12827?tag=nl.e660

    I don’t know what kind of engineering dream team Trident has assembled, but it’s hard to fathom how this is even possible — even with a car that runs on diesel. And though Trident has released some basic specs, they’ve been coy about what kind of secret sauce they’ve got running under the hood.

    What we know so far is that the car’s relies on a 6.6-liter turbocharged diesel horsetrain that, when combined with Trident’s innovative Torque Multiplication system and proprietary transmission technology, delivers 430 bhp and a staggering 950 lbs ft of torque at under 3250 rpm. Roughly speaking, this means that cruising at a constant 70 mph, the specially tuned engine will run at just 980 rpm, produce 700 lbs ft of torque and keep on going for over 2,000 miles with just one full tank of fuel.

    For an extra cost, buyers can also upgrade to a 660bhp model that delivers 1050lbs ft of torque.

    The Trident will be on display at the Salon Privé 2012, an annual car show held at West London’s Syon Park in early September. The company plans to start taking orders shortly after with a starting price of $119,000.
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