Diesels in the News

gagrice

Are we trading one bad system for another? Urea can be produced for as little as 70 cents per gallon. It is one of the major fertilizers used to grow corn. I don't think we can produce E85 for less than about $3 per gallon. The article did not go into specifics such as how much E85 is used per mile. I still think your links to the Argonne lab solution is the best. Here is an update on how that is going.

ARGONNE, Ill. (July 1, 2008)—A new, patented catalyst developed by scientists at the U.S. Department of Energy's (DOE) Argonne National Laboratory to reliably and economically reduce 95 to 100 percent of the nitrogen oxide (NOx) emissions from diesel-fueled engines has been licensed to Integrated Fuel Technologies, Inc. (IFT), a start-up company based in Kirkland, Wash.

The SCR using either Urea or E85 reduces NoX by 85%-95%. The Argonne solution using diesel cuts NoX by 95% to 100%.

Argonne National Laboratory and Integrated Fuel Technologies have developed an in-line DeNOx Catalytic Converter for diesel engines. This HC-SCR DeNOx system uses onboard diesel fuel as a reducing agent to convert NOx to inert N2 and O2 gases. Laboratory tests have shown that under normal operating temperatures and engine loading, this “After-Treatment System” removes more than 95% of NOx, Particulate Matter (PM), and CO from diesel engine exhaust. By combining the innovative fuel-saving technologies of IFT with Argonne’s deNOx formulation, substantial NOx reduction can be achieved without adversely affecting other performance-enhancing or emissions reduction technologies.

http://www.iftnw.com/Products_NOx%20Only.html

Now if they can just get a small PU or SUV with a diesel engine into the USA I will be compelled to spend some money.

catam

I really don't understand the backlash against Urea. Its cheap, plentiful, renewable, and needed in such small quantities. I know on the new 2011 Ford and GM diesel trucks, they have ~ 5 gallon tanks that last ~ 5000 miles. Even if Urea cost $5 / gal which is about 5 times its current value, it would cost 1/2 cent per mile to use. Considering its utility in reducing NOx it seems to be a no brainer.
Again, why do people hate it?????

texases

Well, it may be cheap, but not if you use the dealer. Recently Consumer Reports had an article about having to pay big $$ ($300?) to get a urea fillup at the Mercedes dealership. Unreasonable? Of course, but it happened. It's not like it is commonly available to those unaccustomed to using it.

roland3

... Gary, there was a second press release, supposedly concerning Diesel, attributed to that site that hit Google News in the last 24 hours. It showed up along with the E-85 release. Yes, a company in Seattle has the (or some of) the Argonne rights. I was initially for the SCR-urea, but I thought it would get rid of EGR; however it does not in large applications. Also, it appears to me that many don't realize the maintenance costs that usually go along with EGR and I expect some of the same with SCR-urea. Unfortunately many companies are looking for ROI on their SCR-urea investments now.

gagrice

It is the inconvenience and high dealer cost for Urea that has everybody worried. When you can go to WalMart and get a 5 gallon jug of Urea for $10 a dump it in the tank it will not be a big deal.

Personally I would prefer the system VW/Audi uses in their 4 cylinder diesels. It seems to work without the additional tank and mess. They also offer all the power I need in a small CUV or PU truck.

houdini1

Back in Old England, urine contained properties that were used in the hide tanning industry. Poor people used to collect all their urine in a big pot and sell it to the tanneries. This is where the term "Pi$$ Poor" originated.

Some people were so poor that they could not even afford to buy a big pot. Yes, you guessed it. They were so poor that they didn't have a pot to pi$$ in !!

bigmclargehuge

Let a dealer, mechanic, salesman, etc. screw you, and they will.

Its not like people totally ignortant on cars don't need to be told these horror stories, because they will just fall for anything a salesman or service manager, etc. tells them.

Consumer Reports makes a living finding the 'worst deal on the street' and then publicizing it. Its unfortunate that the haters then blow those stories out of proportion like you have to always overpay for everything, but in the end it is slightly educational for the helpless car buyers out there .

cdnpinhead

Thank you. . .

for one of the most useful/interesting posts I've read on Edmunds in over ten years.

I really enjoy learning the origins of stuff like this.

KCRam

There's no guarantee as to how fast or slow the urea will be used. Since the Ford and GM pickups are new, they can only guess. The problem is, the computer is programmed to drop your vehicle into limp mode if you're about to run out. Not fun if you forget to bring some along and you're towing 12,000 pounds of something 3 hours from anywhere on a rural interstate.

Dodge and Cummins opted for the "adsorber" (precious-metal catalyst) that is a bit more expensive, but will last most buyers the duration of ownership. Unlike the urea systems in the new Ford an GM rigs, Dodge has 3 full years with this system to show it works and is unobtrusive.

Unfortunately, EPA and CARB are so set on rewriting the rules every 3-4 years, no one wants to invest in a long term solution. So we will get these "remedies" that will be good for now, but will not handle the job when the next round of emissions regs for diesels are announced.

Those manufacturers that do stay in the diesel market are pointing out that diesels are effectively as clean as, if not cleaner than, the same vehicle with a gasoline engine - and get better mileage at the same time. But there are still too many consumers who hear "diesel powered" and immediately think 1979 Oldsmobile.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host

roland3

... kcram, I don't actually believe there is anything left, as far as regulations are concerned for the ICE. In fact I think the only thing positive is that the current regs will drive us to fuel cell or all electric, because of all the complications that are involved. Now if there was a realistic incentive for the lower overall carbon output if we could get rid of EGR and SCR-urea it might make life a little better while we are waiting for that breakthrough battery.

bigmclargehuge

So if a new diesel car is out of your price range, would you then say you "can't afford a car to piss in?"

roland3

... Well, let me restate that. I think that all the regulations, in the future, concerning the internal combustion engine, should be in relation to better fuel economy, that obviously reduces carbon output, and that all tailpipe content should be measured in total volume per mile instead of the forty years of foolish measuring of components in a given cubic foot of exhaust gas.
..
... The old system actually was one of the causes of bad fuel economy. The new carbon grams per mile is a step in the right direction, and should be a similar range for HC, CO and NOx. This also will help CARB and EPA avoid admitting they were wrong, just by saying we now have a better measurement system, with incentives favoring better fuel economy, with a slight allowance for some of the NOx. It also might help if the engine manufacturers would try to explain some of the downside of the band-aid EGR and SCR-urea, (especially the long term problems) and work with the regulators, instead of the apparently hostile environment that now exists.

coontie66

Now there is a guy with HORSE SENSE... I have made that point repeatedly right here over the past couple of years. To measure carbon dioxide etc on a per gallon basis is just foolish. but then the enviro green weenies ARE.

Now this post will get them screaming again.

gagrice

It also might help if the engine manufacturers would try to explain some of the downside of the band-aid EGR and SCR-urea,

I think there is some hidden costs with emissions for gas engines that are not well known either. The emissions equipment to get a PZEV rating are very expensive. The government covers that up with their mandatory warranty to the automakers. I think in CA the warranty is 150K miles to get the PZEV rating. A catalytic converter is over a grand for many of those vehicles. The 80k mile EPA warranty is not long enough. I would imagine the bill could be as much as a new transmission or engine to replace all the emissions crap in the cars today.

catam

I think a HOST should do a little better job of avoiding misrepresentation of the facts.

First off, you will not just go into limp mode on the Ford and GM trucks without warning. The DIC on these trucks warn the driver that urea is low, with about 1000 miles worth of urea left in the tank, that means most drivers would have about a month to figure out where to get some urea.
Second, to try to imply the GM and Ford don't have any data on urea and how long the tank will last is silly. Both of them tested these systems for ~100,000 miles of driving before they were released. They are both reporting 5-6K miles on a tank of urea, as a result of their testing, not some made up calculation.

I know you are a Dodge fan, but don't let your bias lead you to misrepresentations

spwilson

I see that Mazda is planning to bring a diesel engine to the US next year in the CX7. Since they are more a niche player, this sounds like a good move. Although with their mantra of sporty, the CX7 seems an odd first model. I had heard Audi is having good sell-through with the TDI A3, so I would hope the Mazda3 would be following shortly behind.

Whatever, hope this moves opens the door for even more interest and models in diesel.

KCRam

I never said you weren't warned before limp mode. Most vehicles now warn you before you run out of fuel, too - is that mentioned regularly by anyone? And yet, people still run their tanks dry.

As for how long urea will last, pre-production testing is fine for durability results, but Joe Average doesn't drive that way. Just as everybody complains that they never get the fuel economy the manufacturer promises, they won't get the urea mileage promised either. We have posts here about 2007+ trucks that rarely get to DPF regen because the owner doesn't use a highway very often. Until some real world numbers are generated, I'll stand by my opinion.

And yes, we hosts are entitled to opinions - we're not here to make only "corporate" or general statements. I'm a Dodge owner, as opposed to a Dodge fan... Chrysler isn't perfect either, and I point out their shortcomings as well.

kcram - Pickups/Wagons Host

gagrice

-- Audi 2010 April sales increased 33% over 2009; only December 2006 provided better monthly results
-- Audi Q5 sales set a single-month record
-- A3 TDI accounts for nearly 60% of line's sales, exceeding expectations

Audi A3 sales jumped 144% from a year earlier. That gain was largely due to strong consumer demand for the A3 TDI model, which is the reigning 2010 Green Car of the Year.

If they would sell the Q5 with the same engine, I would be mighty tempted.

oli1

At what mileage point can I expect to reach the best mpg with the TDI?
Right now I am at 2,300

moparbad

PSA Looks to Diesel Aftertreatment, New Engine Technologies to Meet Euro 6

Urea is the common approach being used to meet Euro 6. Euro 6 diesel engines should meet U.S. emissions without extensive changes.
More opportunity to sell Euro diesels here.

Interesting quote -
To achieve a given CO2 output, he says the cost of a diesel hybrid will be less than the cost of a gasoline hybrid, because the gasoline version would need more battery capacity and the battery is the most expensive part. -end

Diesel hybrids less cost than gasoline, hmmm.....

desertsaab

Will I ever be able to import a Kangoo Diesel and why did Ford not import the Connect Diesel 40mpg not 22 for the gas version?????

moparbad

We don't like diesel, and we don't like wagons here in the U.S.A.

Or do we?
quote VWoA-
Sales of Volkswagen TDI Clean Diesel models increased in popularity. The Jetta SportWagen TDI accounted for 86 percent of all Jetta SportWagens sold in May. -end quote

VWoA Sales

larsb

Stipulations required:

When
We = the average driver, the answer is still "No, we don't care"

When
We = people who pay attention to modern engines and fuel types and air pollution and who are smart enough to understand that diesel cars in 2010 do NOT equal the failures of the 1970s and 1980s attempts, then the answer is "Sure, we care - but we SURE DO WISH that someone other than VW was selling an affordable family diesel car. Honda/Toyota/Mitsu/Nissan selling a Jetta TDI competitor would rev up diesel interest in a MIGHTY way.

gagrice

Saw a great bumper sticker on an F250 today.

"Real Trucks Don't Have Spark Plugs"

coontie66

WE sure wish GM or Ford would sell us a diesel car.

easym1

They're probably scared of selling too much cars!

volvowner

Is there still a chance that additional diesel sedans will show up in the 2011 model year, or have all those announcements been made? If VW comes out with a CC diesel, I'll be a customer.

alltorque

what mileage point can I expect to reach the best mpg with the TDI?
Right now I am at 2,300.

Personal experience running a Skoda Fabia vRS with the 1.9TDi 130bhp engine is that they are nicely loosened up by about 10,000 miles. Mine cerainly was and that is the figure generally bandied about here in Europe. The next 200 - 300,000 miles don't seem to see much more improvement.

moparbad

-for calendar year 2011-

VW will add a midsize sedan diesel (aka NMS). Good bet it will carry Passat nameplate.
Jetta redesign (aka NCS) will arrive.

If anything else shows up, will be a bonus. Buick is *considering* selling the Regal with diesel in both a sedan and wagon version. It is a long shot.

BMW and Mercedes will be introducing four cylinder diesels about 2012 to 2103.

VW is expected to sell the small Polo in sedan form with diesel as a '12 or '13 model.

alltorque

Here in Europe we used to have the Skoda Fabia vRS. A variant of the VW Polo with the 130bhp 1.9 TDi PD and 6-spd manual. I had one for 4 years and loved it...........a real back road smile raiser that was just as much at home cruising autoroutes and autobahns, (experience speaking here).

It stopped production a couple of years ago and was sorely missed.

Now it's back but with the 1.4 TFSI gasser giving 178bhp and 250Nm torque. The TFSI motor is, of course, both turbo- and supercharged. Top speed is 139mph for the 5-door hatch and 140mph for the 5-door estate version with 0-62mph coming up in 7.3secs.............all with an EU Combined 45.6mpg, (Imperial). The 7-spd DSG is standard, with no manual option.

It is based on the equivalent VW Polo but slightly roomier and 5-door rather than the Polo's 3-door. In addition, Skodas are generally rated better built than VW's AND the Fabia will be circa GBP3000 cheaper than the equiv Polo. What's not to like ?

I do know that posting this on a diesel forum is perhaps a little naughty but thought it was interesting to see that VW Group has moved from diesel to gas in their baby fun hatch.................just as you folk are getting more small(er) diesels. Are they trying to tell us something ? :confuse:

Interesting times.

2010 Skoda Fabia vRS

texases

I remember seeing a huge VW advertisement in the airport in London about the TFSI motor, with lots of time spent describing how it was just as efficient as a diesel. Wonder if we'll be getting it in the US any time soon?

alltorque

According to the official blurb the little TFSI produces it's peak bhp at a very un-diesel 6200 rpm but the torque comes in at 2000 thro' 4500 rpm.

Been promised a test drive later in the Summer, (first arrivals aren't due until 29 July).

moparbad

25 mpg 4.5L Duramax

This engine was so close to production.

colin_l

The engine sounds great on paper but if they couldn't deliver a final package that makes economic sense, then I'm glad they didn't move it into production. The linked discussion on autoblog green has a comment that is totally correct-- if GM couldn't do this without adding $6,000+ to the price of the 1/2 ton truck, then there's no point in them doing it at all.

But even though GM couldn't do make it work, it seems like someone should be able to...

moparbad

4.5L diesel did not make it to market for the simple reason that GM ran out of money.
GM went bankrupt.

Many projects were canceled or shelved that were viable and attractive to consumers.

4.5L is likely to arrive at some point since is does make cents.

roland3

... Ditto.

roland3

... Well GM is finally setting aside 60 or so million to build the new Duramax. I wonder what kind of hood they will put over it with all that heat up high and in the center of the v-ee ???

moparbad

EPA certification obtained for Mahindra

gagrice

I wonder if they will get a Diesel tax credit. And if they are subject to the 25% Chicken Tax?

moparbad

Mahindra trucks are expected to qualify for the advanced lean burn technology tax credits. And it will take a very long time for Mahindra to reach the 60,000 vehicle threshold to begin the expiration of the credit.

Mahindra is subject to the 25% chicken tax tariff. They will be importing the initial vehicles from India and depending on sales the plan is to assemble in USA or Mexico from a complete knock down kit.

Litigation between the manufacturer and the importer could prevent the Mahindra from being sold in U.S.A.

gagrice

Mahindra could pull a fast one and sell the truck as an SUV with a shell and crawl through from the cab. Ford managed to bring in their little vans from Turkey and make a slight conversion to get around the tax.

moparbad

Warren Brown reviews the 2011 BMW 335d

quote-
After several hundred miles of driving, mostly in my resident state of Virginia, I believe the 335d is the best midsize sedan ever. That's "best" as in better than any midsize sedan I've driven in 42 years of driving and driving nearly everything there is to be driven.

It is praise bordering on hyperbole, worthy of reader derision. But I ask you to withhold judgment until you've driven this one yourself, an experience enthusiastically recommended here.

Is there any midsize sedan anywhere that delivers so much torque -- the twisting force on the drive wheels (rear, in this case) -- so smoothly? Va-whoppemm-voom! That's the way it feels -- 425 foot-pounds of torque generated at 1,750 revolutions per minute by the 335d's twin-turbocharged, 3-liter in-line six-cylinder engine, which also packs 265 horsepower.
-end quote

There is a very low mileage 2010 335d for sale at a very reasonable price that is sorely tempting me. If only I had a larger garage......

gagrice

My experience test driving the X5 with that engine was WOW. It has so much power you feel like your in a sports car. I can imagine that same engine in the smaller sedan, must be a great ride.

colin_l

My problem with the 335d is twofold, and by far the most significant problem is value.

The 335i is a wonderful car, but already what I would consider expensive relative to its performance, size and luxury in this segment. The rear seat remains trivial; even the 5 series compares poorly against most midsize sedans. Performance is awesome. Luxury is ... a bit, if I may be honest? BMW says their interiors are 'traditional' but I find the instrument cluster and center console to be more like 'archaic'. (I owned a 1995 M3 and the current 3 is disturbingly similar.)

Anyway, I just I don't see how the 335d is worth another $4k on top of the 335i. There's a reason VW is selling all the TDIs they can bring into the country and yet the 335d isn't hardly moving for BMW.

gagrice

I also felt the seat comfort was marginal in the X5 compared to my Sequoia. Performance and handling was head and shoulders better than the Sequoia. I did not care for the NAV or iDrive in the X5 either. That would have not been part of any deal on one. I am not sure how they are selling. I do know they passed Lexus last month as the best selling luxury company. Getting close to double the mileage on the highway would be a plus. Mainly from making less stops for fuel. It would not justify buying one. With the VW TDIs the price difference is not much at my local VW dealership. No markups or gouging. I would not even consider the gas version VWs except maybe a GTI. I love the seats and that is one fun to drive vehicle.

jlbl

My last 3-year-lasting pleasure.



What a tamed great beast. The more extended the driving, the more so.

Regards,
Jose

winter2

I found this article in my morning email so I thought I would pass it on. Now that several companies are pushing all electric cars such as Nissan, we can now see that they are dirtier than a clean diesel as most countries, including the U.S. use mostly coal to make electricity. I am sure that this thinking would apply to plug-in hybrids, but to a lesser degree.

http://www.theregister.co.uk/2010/08/31/battery_cars_destroy_the_world/

texases

Ironically, the EPA plans to give the Leaf an "A+" in its new rating scheme. :sick:

winter2

I give little credence to the EPA and their ratings. I give even less credence to Consumer Reports and their ratings.

It would be interesting to be caught behind a Leaf in rush hour traffic and the battery pack goes flat. That image is almost funny.

larsb

I read that report.

It uses a lot of assumptions.

Too much is "not yet known" to convincingly state one way or another which is cleaner.

We know one thing for sure: Around the world, electricity generation is getting cleaner and cleaner every day.

So five years from now, when A LOT MORE electricity is generated by wind, solar, and wave power, and even cleaner coal plants, the numbers will change.

Right now, I'd say it's premature to declare either of them cleaner than the other. They are all (EV, PHEV, Hybrids, Diesel) better than most or almost all standard ICE engine vehicles.