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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    But the Impala is not part of our topic in this particular discussion, so let's don't get too far into that supposition.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    My wife is overall pretty satisfied with our 2004 Accord EX V6.

    Main issue that it has a couple of annoying rattles sometimes. A LOT of people complain about the rattles if you go to the Accord forum. If you look at the Initial Quality surveys, the Accord's rating is pretty average (unlike in years prior), and I think the rattles have a lot to do with it.

    Second is gas mileage, it's a bit less than what we were expecting. About 22 mpg combined 50/50 highway/local driving with A/C always on. The car is EPA rated at 21/30. We have 8500 miles on it, and maybe it'll improve over time.

    It's overall a great car, and with a $23,000 sale price ($24,000 out the door price), it's a pretty good value.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    You can also find a lot of satisfied Accord owners...

    Saying Accord is not reliable because on Edmunds forums you see a lot of people complaining is not a valid reason. Edmunds forums only represent a small fraction of Accord owners. I admit Honda went down in intitial quality, but how does that relate to long term reliability? Despite that, Honda still maintains a pretty high rating in intial quality. Saying a bold statment "Honda is no longer a reliable car maker" requires more conrete evidence and better research. All you can show is unstatisfied owners on Edmunds forums.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Honda changed its warranty!
    Powertrain Warranty 5yrs/60k miles
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    finally even the accord owners themselves speak the truth. I have been stressing about this for a while now but there are some accord faithfuls here that won't accept the real truth.

    2 recalls for 2005 is horrible, because it is in their last years of production , and it should be pretty much a perfect built car quality wise. Same for the camry which also had 2 recalls.

    The sonata though still new, hasn't had even a squeak of problems mentioned(forum nor recall news) and also from the 2003 sonata hasn't even had 1 recall(well built), thus the new 2006 sonata will have the same quality

    Like i said the sonata is a better car overall, even in the quality department
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Where did you get those numbers from? (Sonata sales)
    Its probably down because of the Domestics (employee discounts)

    Honda's sales are up but its profits are down.

    "Although cost cuts helped boost Honda's profit, higher administrative and research expenses and losses from financial instruments caused by a drop in long-term interest rates reduced the company's income, it said."

    http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=14&article_id=2532&page_number=1

    Honda's sales in north America grew 7% even with the employee discounts :confuse:
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    The Sonata is not class-leading simply because it is less expensive than an Accord or Camry. That's just icing on the cake.

    The Sonata can be considered class-leading because of all the standard safety items that come on every 2006 Sonata, regardless of trim or engine size. You can't get traction or stability control on a 4 cylinder Accord, but they are standard on every 4 cylinder Sonata. 4 wheel disc brakes are standard on every Sonata as well, unlike the Accord. Does the Accord even offer active head restraints? They are standard on every Sonata.

    Like I said before, the bar has been raised. The 2006 Sonata is now the car that Honda and Toyota should have in their sights.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    "The 2006 Sonata is much better than the car it replaced, and its many standard safety features set an example other automakers will have to follow, but it lacks the character and refinement Hyundai needs to cross the gap that separates it from brands with longer -- and better -- traditions."

    http://www.freep.com/money/autoreviews/phelan21e_20050721.htm
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    How can some guy from a newspaper(prob a car and driver, or edmunds reject) be worthwhile to be mentioned?

    The steering is numb? though no mazda 6 level, it is far from being numb(camry). When he wrote that, i knew he had no merit to what he was talking about.

    I never believe these newspaper writers, they have usually absolutely no idea what they are talking about.

    btw ctalk you could point out all these articles that are bad of this car, but i can also point out at least 4:1 ratio from excellent to bad articles(usually professional car sites giving excellent reviews compared to wannabe car sites or newspaper articles that say so so). I don't understand your intentions
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    It's hard to work up respect for a reviewer who doesn't even know how many speeds the transmission of a test car has, and doesn't bother to find out.

    He also claims that pieces of the interior of an earlier Sonata fell off as he was driving out of the plant parking lot--which would have been in South Korea of course. That is a little hard to believe.

    That, plus the fact that most of his comments are contradicted by other reviews (e.g. C/D found that the V6 Sonata has class-leading acceleration for automatic transmission cars, and no one else has vilified the interior like he did) and the many caustic remarks in the review about Hyundai in general lead me to believe he already had his mind made up before driving the car that it would not fare well against the competition.
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    Also from the same article:

    Standard equipment on all models includes antilock brakes, electronic stability control and six airbags -- the mandatory two front bags plus seat-mounted front air bags and side curtain air bags for front and rear passengers.

    That's more standard safety equipment than you'll find on any competitive family sedan.


    Class-leading, industry standard benchmark!
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Hyundai made great strides in recent years, I do think the Sonata is a great vehicle. However, at the present time it is still not at the same level as Accord and Camry when it comes to status. Time will tell whether Sonata will catch up with Accord and Camry. You can post many reviews about the Sonata being as good as Accord and Camry but the reality is that Accord and Camry are presently one step ahead of Sonata. The fact that Sonata owners have to justify their purchases proves that even in their eyes the Accord and Camry are better. The past month I have been trying to defend the Accord, but then I recently realized that there are not many Accord and Camry owners on this forum. Accord and Camry owners do not have to justify their purchases, because they are simply known as quality cars. Year after year, the Accord and Camry are always on the top seller list.
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    That, plus the fact that most of his comments are contradicted by other reviews (e.g. C/D found that the V6 Sonata has class-leading acceleration for automatic transmission cars, and no one else has vilified the interior like he did) and the many caustic remarks in the review about Hyundai in general lead me to believe he already had his mind made up before driving the car that it would not fare well against the competition

    You think that writing for the Detroit Free Press might have something to do with that? :P
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    The fact that Sonata owners have to justify their purchases proves that even in their eyes the Accord and Camry are better.

    :surprise:

    Methinks thou dost protest too much. If anyone is defending their purchase beyond all reason it is, surprise!, you. Could you perhaps have a case of buyer's remorse? I bet that deep down you wish you waited for the new Sonata instead of following the herd. Come on, admit it. You really want a Sonata! :P
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    Its a better seller then Sonata

    Of course it is. But sales alone doesn't make the Accord a better car. Might as well say McDonald's makes a better hamburger than Wendy's because they sell more. :confuse:

    The Accord and Camry will continue to outsell the Sonata. But I'll go against the herd mentality and put my money in a vehicle that offers the most bang for the buck. IMO, the new Sonata simply outshines the current mid-size sedan offerings from Honda and Toyota.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    But to stay on topic.

    I emailed the guy about his mistakes in the Hyundai Sonata review because not only did he get facts about the Sonata wrong, he got facts about the Altima and Mazda6 wrong too.

    I haven't heard from him yet. ;) :P

    I'm home for a couple of days, I think I'll go out and test drive a couple Sonatas and Camrys.

    The dealership in my area sells both Toyota and Hyundai under the same franchise.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Well first of all, if someone says directly in your face "your car sucks" doesn't that make you a little mad? :P

    But then i realized who cares, my car is better and i know it (and you know it too ;))

    Btw i said this earlier but i think you forgot- I picked the Accord because of its interior
  • boltguyboltguy Member Posts: 94
    I don't view the Sonata as a benchmark in this class. I do view it as the best value. If resale is important to you and you trade and buy a new car every 3 years, then it may not be the machine for you. But as an equal in every performance category, and a very close if not equal competitor in the fit/finish arena, what's not to like? It would have to be considered an equal in the safety category if not better. It may not be better than a Camcord, but it's ever so close, and gaining ground. These type of underdog auto manufacturer stories don't come around often, and it's so similar to what Toyota and Honda did in the late 70's, that I don't see how anyone who remembers those cars doesn't draw a parallel.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    "do view it as the best value"

    Exactly what I think. I never said the Sonata is the worst. In fact I think it's much better than the domestics. In some ways it is as good as the Accord. I would have bought the Sonata if I were on tight budget. Hyundai has come a long way. About 10-20 years ago Honda and Toyota were considered inferior to most car manufacturers, but they have changed people's perceptions over the years. Hyundai is starting to do the same, but it may take a while.
  • boltguyboltguy Member Posts: 94
    I think they've been gaining ground on the Japanese since the '00 model year from a quality perspective. They were floundering and almost pulled out of the U.S. around 97-98. They may never catch Honda and Toyota for U.S. sales, but at the least, they've proven (to me) they have a worthy foe with the new Sonata. Some people's opinions won't be swayed, because they've had great experiences with a certain manufacturer and they view the cars as bulletproof. I've owned Hyundais for 13 years now, so I have some allegiance to them. I can certainly understand why some folks see no reason to sway from their carmaker of choice.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I think Hyundai has a good chance to catch up to Honda and Toyota in sales. I mean 10-20 years ago we said the same about Honda and Toyota, and look at where they are now.
  • ykangykang Member Posts: 88
    I think ctalk is an employee of Honda.
    I can't find any other reason that this person is trying to protect Honda such a passionate way.
    If I were, actually I was, Honda or Toyota fan, I would be happy when their competitor shows improvement.
    That way, they will work harder to maintain their market share.
    Eventually we customers will have more choices of better product.
    Don't you agree?
  • ykangykang Member Posts: 88
    " if someone says directly in your face "your car sucks" doesn't that make you a little mad?"
    If someone directly says in my face "your car sucks", I would say "yeah, it is."
    I would not deny that I made a mistake.
    I'm not gonna get mad just because people tell you the truth.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I never said The Sonata is bad, i think its a excellent car.

    For you to walk in and say "honda is unreliable because people on forums are complaining about rattles" makes me think your a hyundai employee.

    Of course competition is good, if there wasn't any competition, cars wont be as good as they are today. Some goes with electronics

    I hope Sonata sells well, so Honda will be forced to make an even better car.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    If someone directly says in my face "your car sucks", I would say "yeah, it is."
    I would not deny that I made a mistake.
    I'm not gonna get mad just because people tell you the truth.


    :confuse:
    LOL...

    Ok...
    Yes i would say it does suck, if it sucks. But it doesn't suck, so why should i say it sucks.
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    NONE of these cars that are apart of this forum suck.

    Lets not forget that these are JUST cars people. Sometimes some of us (including myself) take this stuff too personal.

    The Accord and Camry are great cars who have ruled the market a long time. The new Sonata offers an alternative to those cars for a lower price.

    That's all it is too it. The Sonata is just as good a car, if not better in some ways and the Accord and Camry are better in some ways, but the point is that the new Sonata finally represents a real challenge to these cars and few (if any) cars ever have.

    Ok....
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    whoa whoa easy, sport. :P
    Why are you getting worked up again?
    I somewhat agree to your views that Sonata still has some catching up to do.
    Why go over the same line again? We've been over this.
    As I said, your enthusiasm to prove your point is more impressive than the
    article itself.
    Just chill...
    I was just beginning to like you ma friend... :P

    Anyways.
    Thanks for straightening up the pricing confusion.
    I missed the "canadian" part.
    I didn't know anything about Impala... very interesting.
  • oldjoeoldjoe Member Posts: 132
    Evidently the new Sonata copied the 03-04 Accord taillights...but of course the 05 Accord taillights are different. I guess copying is the sincerest form of flattery, albeit that the coping is of taillights that have not been produced since September 2004...! Why, did you know that the Mercury Montclair looks just like the Mercedes...circa 1975? Ho Hum....another wannabe copy job...not for this previous Hyundai owner! I'll stick to the quality Honda/Toyota cars. Didn't I read that Honda returns the greatest dollars as a used car? Senior citizens are switching to Toyota and Honda products in droves, even at the premium prices...just drive through any senior housing unit in Florida...Buicks, Mercurys, Toyotas and Hondas predominate. It's best to drive through during the normal Florida afternoon showers when the great Florida auto wash is operative...garage doors go up and autos are backed out for the "fgree" car wash...it is hilarious. Been there, lived there, watched it happen!.
  • oldjoeoldjoe Member Posts: 132
    10-20 years ago Honda and Toyota were still far ahead of their competition, the doubt about them occurred as they ramped up imports in the 60s and 70s...but dealers still were selling as many as were shipped to them. Consumers Reports always was astonished at their quality and reliability being reported by the owners.

    Price, I agree that is a non-issue for Toyota/Honda owners. If you want a definitive answer on quality...pull up to the Honda or Toyota service line first thing in the morning...if you can find a line! The darn things just do not break...and I just left the US cars for the foreign reliability...price was not a consideration, I knew I would pay more for my Honda Accord but I don't care, I need the reliability and resale value at my Social Security age. Yes, I know Honda has some reliability problems...they start crapping out somewhere between 200,000 and 250,000 miles...sob!
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    :P I just love my Accord, but i still like the Sonata. It's a great car.

    I said i earlier i was going to post July sales per dealership. It's suppose to come out today, i'll post it as soon as i get it.

    Oh yea...
    Are you going to wait for the 07 Camry?
    I am 99% sure the pictures you posted earlier are how its going to look.
    The Camry can sell so well with its current model (which IMO is boring) I wonder how it would sell with the next generation, its much more stylish looking. This generation may appeal more to Mazda 6 buyers (on SE model) I noticed Toyota is putting the sign on top of the grill again..? Gives it a distinctive look IMO :P.
  • lweisslweiss Member Posts: 342
    I am the owner of a 98 Volvo S-70 with 95K- a fabulous car in safety, handling, seats, controls- but...a very expensive car to maintain (it seems that most of the European cars are thorobreds- nice, but needing frequent and often expensive maintenance)- so my first and last Volvo. And I have been reading this discussion and good points are made- but, is not the choice of a dealer pretty important. Where I live, there are maybe 3 Hyundai dealers within 25 miles, perhaps 10 on the Honda and Toyota side. And these dealers probably have a better availability of spare parts and the resale values certainly are better on the Honda/Toyota end too. So all three cars will certainly get me where I need to go almost always. But is'nt the Hyundai dealer network still building? There is an advantage in having a longer history I would think.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    There's a lot more Chevy and Ford dealers than Honda or Toyota dealers. ;) But I wouldn't buy a car if dealer service wasn't readily available--which is not an issue in a major metro area. Out in the boonies, it could be a problem.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    this is a review from a more legit source, automobilemag, who says in addition to car and driver, edmunds, autoweek, motortrend, road and track that the Sonata is at least on par and on some ways better than the camcord

    http://www.automobilemag.com/reviews/sedans/0507_hyundai_sonata/index.html
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    stop this ping-pong game.
    We've been over this. just stop the foolishness.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    this is called a COMPARISON thread
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    If you repeat what have been said already over and over and over,
    that's foolishness.
    If you engage in never-ending and pointless debates,
    that's foolishness.
    You are not coming with new ideas.
    You made your point and well, but there's only so much others can take.
    This is not even the first time I posted this kind of message.
    So, stop it.
    (That goes to everyone including myself.)
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    I agree that the new Camry will sell very well. It all comes down to what I want.
    Do I want more affordable well-built solid-riding car with good-looking exterior
    (copied or not), so-so interior, and made by a company less impressive (but
    certainly improving) track record?
    Or do I want rather expensive good-riding well-built car with great-looking exterior
    and good looking interior (I hope), and made by a company with flawless track
    record?

    As I said before, given my age, interests and circumstances, Sonata is a really
    good pick. If I had money to buy a nicely-equipped Camry, I might actually go
    for Azera. It's quite likely that I won't wait for the new Camry to come out, if Azera
    comes out with good reviews (on top of personal test-drives, of course).
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    It's all about exactly how long it will actually take, I guess.
    A lot of people think Sonata is the beginning of something great, and I truely
    hope so. From the view of the consumers, competition is always good. Look
    at all the price-slashing going on right now.
    It will be interesting to watch if Hyundai will actually succeed and reach the
    level of Toyota/Honda, and how they will fend off a terrifying threat lurking beneath
    the water: even more affordable Chinese cars.
    As one reviewer stated, Hyundai doing Toyota has been really successful over the
    past few years, and it makes you wonder what Hyundai doing Lexus will be like.

    Anyhow, the sales numbers are being tabulated as you know.
    It looks like Hyundai will reach about the same number of sales in July as that of
    June (43,000 cars). But as I posted before, Sonata sales ain't so hot.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    The Sonata looks like a perfect car for you. But its still good to wait for the Camry and Azera.

    I've owned two Hondas, and one Toyota. I have had great experiences with all 3 vehicles. I have also owned a chevrolet and volkswagen which i had very little luck with. After owning a car that broke down on the highway and stranded in the middle of nowhere (more then twice). I like to keep it safe, and buy cars i trust. Both Toyota and Honda have earned my trust.

    * I also tend to keep my cars for 3-5 years, so i need a car that has a high resale value.

    I hope you chose the right car, it seems the Sonata is perfect for you.
    Keep me posted on what you decide to purchase :)
  • mariner7mariner7 Member Posts: 509
    "I think Hyundai has a good chance to catch up to Honda and Toyota in sales. I mean 10-20 years ago we said the same about Honda and Toyota, and look at where they are now."

    Just because it's behind doesn't mean it's going to catch up. Remember 626 and Gallant, they were behind too and they were buried.

    There's certainly a chance that Sonata will be a major player because Hyundai has good management. But if you look at the growth rates in US in last 2 years, Hyundai's way behind Toyota and Nissan, even though those two are much bigger. If you're much smaller and don't grow as much, you're falling further behind. So it's not a given that Sonata will achieve Camry/Accord status.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    From what I understand, the lackluster sales of the Sonata in these beginning months is mainly a supply issue. Not many cars are coming out of Hyundai's U.S. plant... maybe they're imposing higher QC standards.

    Some dealers are still asking MSRP for this car. Once supply catches up, expect prices to come down and sales to be about 12,500 per month.
  • shado4shado4 Member Posts: 287
    I, too, heard that Hyundai was slowly ramping up production of the 2006 Sonata at their new plant in Alabama so they can concentrate on quality first and worry about quantity later.

    I think that's an excellent approach to releasing a brand new car, especially when it is coming from a brand new factory.
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    "I, too, heard that Hyundai was slowly ramping up production of the 2006 Sonata at their new plant in Alabama so they can concentrate on quality first and worry about quantity later."

    also there was an article where it said the ceo was upset about the way a certain very small area of the car was fitted where most car companies wouldn't concern, so he told the workers to take apart 50 cars made and to do it again. Mistakes will not be tolerable.

    I can certainly beleive that is quality made at any cost
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    "So it's not a given that Sonata will achieve Camry/Accord status."

    Of course its not a given. I doubt this generation will achieve 'Camry/Accord status'. It may, or may not only time will tell. Hyundai may have a hard time catching up to Toyota/Honda/Nissan in sales because they to are growing.
  • oldjoeoldjoe Member Posts: 132
    There was a TV program that showcased the fact that Hyundai was setting up a new plant...seems they were conducting a two-week course an how to tighten and loosen bolts, how to avoid cross threading, direction of tightening, loosening, etc.

    Seems that the average person they were hiring did not even have basic nut and bolt skills. As far as those that needed additional skills...??? Let's hope that Hyundai solved the nut and bolt problem. I guess they did not realize that some of those southern areas are still stuck in the backwaters of modern America and schooling is below even minimum skill standards. However, companies committing to these backwater areas of the USA will help lift these areas into the 21st century. Early production Hyundai Sonata autos may be a little rough until all skill levels are up to par. Even Honda had initial problems in their Canadian and Southern USA plants until the workers got their skill levels up. Sometimes building a new manufacturing plant at a location that hypes low taxes and cheap labor is really not the way to go.

    Foreign auto plants in Maryland and Ohio have been extremely successful. However some problem plants in Canada (DC), Pennsylvania (VW a long time ago) and South Carolina (Mercedes SUVs) come to mind. Some learned the bitter lesson of quality builds, some are still learning and some will never learn and are either limping along or have been closed...."It takes a highly motivated and skilled work force to build a quality car."

    The new Chevy SUV being built in Canada with Canadian manufactured parts and China supplied Engines and transmissions is probably the wave of the future. GM is desperately looking for any way to cut costs and increase profit...they even buy the Honda 3.5 V6 and transmission for their high end Saturn SUV. I guess every GM engineer's first baby word is "pushrod" as every DC engineer's first baby word is "RWD."...sigh!
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Nissan had some QC issues for a while with cars coming out of their NA plants. Honda had some trouble as well.

    Hyundai especially has to be careful. It took them more than 10 years to crawl out of the hole that they put themselves in with the trouble-prone Excel. They can't afford to get a tarnished reputation with a mass-market vehicle again.

    Any new auto plant (not just the ones in the U.S.) is going to have some issues in the beginning. You just have to work through them and exact high standards.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    Well, here's the press release. quite impressive. (11% increase yoy)
    click here to read the article
    They sold 9,768 sonatas (old and new), and Elantra broke its sales record with
    13,140 cars sold.
    I keep hearing the employee discount shmutz expanded the entire market for the
    month creating lots of traffic in dealers everywhere.
    So, I guess it's all good for Hyundai after all.
  • truethattruethat Member Posts: 123
    15%?
    Here's the AP article. I think 11% was growth of passenger cars.
    Anyhow, the numbers are impressive, although Sonata sales is flat (so far).
    click for article
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Toyota, Nissan and Honda also posted record sales.
  • nornenorne Member Posts: 136
    However sales of accord is still down by 7% from 2004 sales level.
This discussion has been closed.