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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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The Sonata isn't a better car than the Accord or Camry. If anything, they are on equal footing. And I still think it says a lot for the Accord that the Edmund's Editor's still chose it as the car they would drive between the three in the comparison test. Explain that .. you have a V6 sedan with stability control, wheels, 4-wheel disc brakes, etc vs. a 4 cylinder sedan with rear drums and the Accord still ran away with the Personal Rating category.
If anyone knew here, the optima does not really exist in korea, and i think the last time i went there, only like the sorrentos were to be seen, its mostly made for the north american market.
In my guess it will prob sell a quarter and some change worth compared to what the sonata will sell.
LOL! Well said anonymousposts :P
and here is the Sonatas.
Yo Choe13, I would also like to here how the Sonata is SO MUCH MORE luxurious than the Accord? :P Well, I have back up. Look at the pic. When you sit in an Accord it really feels like your sitting in an Acura. Rich leather, stylish and modern design.
Honda and Toyota are good companies, that are reliable, have quality. Yet for example in one case you have toyota that don't enhance their engines , suspension etc. and its obvious why their cars lasts so long.(owners have no ability to push them)
Honda as well worrying about mass production and profits have disregarded making their cars better for the money.
In contrast their luxury divisions acura and lexus could be compared to how the sonata is today, and that are cars that try hard, are priced generously compared to some ridicolously priced german cars with simliar qualities.
honda and toyota will soon lose to their kind of game, and with hyundai coming out with 5 more new cars, like the Azera(will embarress avalon), Santa Fe(more luxurious than pilot of hilander), Elanta(mazda 3 projection), i would be scared if i was honda or toyota who have been taking hyundai lightly, not making their cars better, worrying about mass production and profits.
Hondas interior could be a bit better, but thats because they have more experience with it, but don't kidd yourself if you think it is off the hook better than hyundais nor camrys. All three are comparable.
If this is your argument for more luxury, i have no idea what you will say about luxury when you compare to 1st their exterior design, NvH noise level, backseat space etc
What makes you think Honda is worrying, when you say something like that support it with evidence. Or are you just making a blank satement.
If you read they also said that with three braking test done on two of the three cars the Sonata did the best only. There was only a difference of a few inches between stops. The camry :lemon: didn't make it to round three, it's sad that even during test runs the testers became afraid to continue testing a production car because of safety issues.
As far as personal ratings, Lexus, Mercedes and BMW's ride firm.. Lincoln and Cadillac's are softer more plush riding vehicles.. The writers preferred the sportiness of the Honda, the Sonata is more a family sedan.. Why would I want to have a sport ride in a family sedan. If I wanted a sport ride I would opt. for a sports car..
Where is the extra work then? since about 9 years now, i haven't seen honda do anything extra for their customers example, better rebates, better salespeople, services, more equipment, better warranty,adding stadard but important features likeABS to every single just a small example
That is just your opinion on Honda.
If Honda hasn't done anything, then:
Why is the Accord always on Car and Driver 10 best?
Why is the Odyssey on Car and Drivers 5 Best Trucks?
Why is the Pilot on Car and Drivers 5 best Trucks?
Why does Accord get 1st in many comparison tests?
Why does Honda's Pilot get 1st in many comparison tests?
Why does the new Odyssey win 1st in many comparison tests?
Why is the Civic and Accord a best seller?
The list goes on.
Honda is odviously doing something right.
You keep saying Hyundai is improving, yes it is. But dont forget Honda and Toyota are to.
And a couple of things you have an error is civic as the best seller, which i don't believe has been the case for the past 2 and a half years. That title has long belongs to the Corolla and Mazda 3. But they did sell very well 1st 2 years only because of the honda emblem
Also Odyssy doesn't sell very well though it is ranked high, because it is so much more expensive compared to a caravan which isn't as good but is a top seller.
http://www.caranddriver.com/article.asp?section_id=30&article_id=9275
The Odyssey is not ranked high because its expensive :confuse:
You keep saying they're not doing anything exta. WHAT EXTRA DO YOU WANT THEM TO DO? Yes their cars are priced higher, but its been like that for a long time. People dont mind paying extra because they want to buy a quality car with a good reputation. Face the facts, Honda and Toyota are going to be one step higher than Hyundai for a long time. Just because the new Sonata came out doesn't mean it suddenly put Hyundai up with Honda and Toyota. It needs to build a reputation like what Honda and Toyota have. I believe Hyundai will one day be up with Honda and Toyota but it will take a while and a whole lot of effort.
We're going to have this endless debate over whos better. But only time will tell which automakers will survive. The back and fourth debate were having is getting ridiculous, why dont we just stop.
you are the one quoting what i said and u ask me WHAT EXTRA??
quality and reputation these days aren't enough, and hyundai is proving that my friend
also you talk about sonata being this one year wonder, can you please explain how the G35 in their first year somewhat dethroned the all reputable Bmw 3 ? its not impossible
How do you know what quality and reputation isn't enough these days?
That is party the reason why Accord and Camry are best sellers.
A lot of people buy Honda's and Toyota's because of their long standing reputations of quality they hold. Honda and Toyota can come out with a half-descent car and they will still sell well as long as they have the Accord and Camry badge on them.
Yikes.
~alpha
How do you know what quality and reputation isn't enough these days?
That is party the reason why Accord and Camry are best sellers.
Is not enough, because in a competative market, the extra mile is needed. Sony thought they could use reputation and quality, and they almost went down under. This will eventually happen to honda unless their next accord is totally amazing. They have to stop progressing and do more like what hyundai has done now.
You are right about one thing, we will never agree, lets put an end
don't you think? I think (and i'm sure you'd agree) that Hyundai is at a very
critical turning point, while Honda and Toyota are pretty much on top of their
games. What happens too often in business world (it happens over and over
again in any sector), leaders become cocky and conceded and lose their
grip on things. With few exceptions (like Coke, Mcdonald's and Microsoft),
there are very very few companies who stays on top for more than a
couple decades into full-fledged competitions. Airbus beat Boeing and
Samsung beat Sony.
Improvements made by Hyundai over the last few years are definitely more
dramatic than those of Toyota/Honda. Okay, it's largely because Hyundai
was simply so bad at building cars.
BUT
That does not mean that it was somehow easier to achieve. If Hyundai can
build a midsize sedan that can directly compete against the Japanese, and
if such improvements came about in such a short time, than you should give
it full credit.
Toyota and Honda are obviously quite anxious about Hyundai catching up in
terms of quality (even if Hyundai is not completely on par with them now, it's
darn close). Very few people saw it coming. Could anyone here have predicted
that Sonata would beat out Camcord by Edmund's comparo just last year?
The Japanese would be foolish if they think Hyundai will somehow still be
behind them because they are improving too (and I believe they are not foolish
at all). In fact, they should know better than anyone else that reversals in fates
are more than possible. It's how they beat the Germans and Americans! Yes,
public perception is important, but you cannot count on it forever.
Monarchy of the Midsize Market
http://www.carspin.net/content/archive/2005_07_11_accord_camry_success.php
so subjective as you'd like to believe. To make such sound, cars have to be
sealed up perfectly. If you have any small gap in the finish, the sound choe13
describes will not occur. I can go on and on about what Hyundai is doing to
make this happen, but it just doesn't seem worth it.
You could be right after all; Hyundai might never catch up. But if Edmund's
think the hell froze over already, I think it's worth a more serious consideration.
Honda and Toyota have been taking a rest these past 10 years, and that was their choice, and now they don't know what has hit them when the new hyundai came out(and other 5 vehicles soon to come)
Toyota asked Hyundai that if they could both see how each others plant and hyundai kindly declined, which clearly shows you that toyota is a bit worried and hyundai is more confident
Hyundais sales in total have also almost quadrupled in just one year and like you said the improvements with honda and toyota are there, its just hyundai has litterally leaped in comparison.
But check out what happened with Samsung. It's very interesting that Samsung is rated the #1 consumer electronics brand, handily outpacing the former king, Sony, which looked invincible not that long ago. Just ten years ago, no one would have predicted that Samsung would overtake Sony, and it probably would not even have made the top 100 list back then.
Hey, Toyota and Honda aren't invincible. Just look at Sony. Sony is still a very well recognized brand, but Samsung literally came out of nowhere to dethrone them.
With good cars such as the new Sonata, Hyundai will keep on gaining.
http://bwnt.businessweek.com/brand/2005/index.asp?sortCol=rank_2005&sortOrder=ASC&pageNum=- - - 1&resultNum=100§or=
You should notice that Hyundai beat out Nissan on the same list.
Interesting, huh?
I wonder at what position hyundai will move up to when their 24/7 plan cars azera, santa fe, elantra, entourage, tiburon come into play. Should be interesting, a big jump to the 70's or 60's is not impossible
Yes, but that two days occurred about 2 weeks ago. I check every couple of days (don't know why since I have a 2005 Camry SE-V6) hoping for a meaningful discussion but I think I'll give up.
The driving experience also goes to the Sonata, but I think the Accord suspension pieces work more seamlessly together and seem more refined. The Sonata's rear suspention seemed a bit too harsh at times. The Camry's suspension is quite soft compared to the Accord and Sonata. I think Hyundai will continue to tweak the suspension - after all this is the first model year of the new Sonata, and the first model year of any car is notorius for glitches.
I think this car is going to open up many consumer's eyes. If the reliability of the new engines, and the Korean-built transmission, are up to the level of the Accord and Camry, Honda and Toyota better watch out - Hyundai has arrived!
I also noted that the majority of the V6's, and all Inline 4's, were sourced from Korea, not the new Alabama plant. This may only be specific to my local dealers, I don't know. Only a few Sonata's, all LX models, used USA built V6's. And, all GL and GLS models I inspected came from the Korean body assembly plant. Again, only the LX was assembled in Alabama.
A couple of suggestions to Hyundai: move the two rear speakers from the rear door kick panels to the rear deck - like the Accord and Camry - you then wouldn't need the optional subwoofer; and, make the power driver's seat standard across all three lines - certainly in the GLS. Hopefully, Hyundai will listen to its customers, and prospective customers, as they appear very serious about going after the Accord and Camry demographic.
Though the quality of the 05 is LEAP YEARS ahead of the 02-04, its still not quite as good as the Accord or Camry interior materials-wise.
But I love it none the less.
And like Jrock stated, the latest Nissans have been doing pretty good sales wise (exception Quest and Maxima)
Nissan has emerged and gone up a great deal since the Blandy days of the 1990s. Isn't Nissan again the Number 2 Japanese Automaker???
Or which one would you have bought?
nice review, and when i drove those three cars as well i didn't see the fine details as you described, but certainly such quality could be felt driving the sonata the first time.
are you planning to buy a car soon like myself(which is def the sonata) or did you have a wannabe car editor for the day(which is cool, and fun)
With the job now more secure, we reinitiated the search two weeks ago. The new Sonata entered the stage, and now we had to reconsider everything all over again. Yesterday's drive of the Accord, Camry, and Sonata was a intended to finalize our decision, so that we could either order or take delivery of a new car by the end of this week. As it stands, it will either be a Camry LE (at $19,600), or the new 2006 Sonata LX (originally only considered the GLS, but the LX is simply too nice) at $23,500. I have a daughter is college, and a savings of nearly $4,000 would help the budget, but it's a tough call between the two. As per my earlier post, the fit and finish of the Sonata exceeds that of the Camry. Was I surprised, yes, as most consumers would be. I think Toyota dealers would be shocked if they objectively compared vehicles. The interior material quality is superior on the Camry, in my opinion. My biggest complaint (maybe that's too strong of a word) on the Sonata is the appearance of the radio in the center of the upper dashpad, and the center console. And, I have some reservations on the dial pointers for the instrumentation, but these are again only individual subjectives. I guess my most significant concern with the Sonata is that it's simply a "first model year car" of a new generation. Generally speaking, design glitches always raise their ugly head in first year products. That coupled with a brand new manfuacturing facility with workers coming up to speed also tends to worry me, but from what I've carefully observed with the new Sonata, the latter doesn't seem to be a concern.
So, the decision will be made today between the Camry and Sonata. I wish the Sonata had some incentive financing, as the Camry has 1.9% for 36 months through the end of July. But, this is not necessarily a decision maker for us. One shouldn't expect incentives on a brand new model. In summary, I think as long as the long-term reliability of the new engines is good, the new Sonata has caught up with the Accord and Camry, and has arrived!
Good luck with making your final decision.... it's tough!
Where should I be looking at?
I am also trying to figure out which car to buy from Sonata, Camry and Accord.
I was really close to buying Sonata, but I am going to push the plan back a little.
I am still not certain that the new Sonata is as reliable as it should be, nor am I
in a hurry to get a car. From what I can tell, I might be much closer to your
daughter's age than yours. I can walk a little more...
LX models are indeed all made in Alabama plant and many of the GL and GLS
models are from Korea. I know it's tempting to go for the LX (as it was for me) but
if your major concern is long-term reliability, then might I suggest that you get
GLS? My reasoning is simple. Sonata has been out in the Korean market for a
year now, and went through a lot more trouble-shooting than American-made LX.
Hyundai started putting in their 3.3L engines (even in Korea) only just few months
ago. I am waiting to see if any problem comes up.
If you end up choosing the Sonata...
I believe there has been a problem with the ESC software. It seems to be quite an
easy-fix (since it involves only software) and either the factory or your dealer
should have fixed the problem already, but you should double-check. Also, make
sure to enable auto-lock for the doors (it's the function that automatically locks
your doors once the speed reaches certain level). I keep hearing people go back
to the dealer to activate it because the cars come disabled for some reason.
Good luck with your shopping~ :shades:
I know like you the lx is alot better, but honestly the gls is not a bad car. And its 21 grand, or 21.7 with a sunroof or something. That is about 2 grand savings and you still get the V6. Also hyundai i think has one of the most generous financings around, what was the rate they gave you??
I wish you luck, but if i were you i would think twice about the camry
"The Japanese carmakers have also tried to avoid large rebates and other costly incentives for fear of undermining perhaps their biggest sales point among American consumers: the high resale prices many Japanese cars command. "We have no plans to offer new incentives or price cuts," said Koichi Kondo, senior managing director in charge of Honda Motor's American operations. "Cutting prices might boost short-term sales, but in the long run it hurts the cars' residual value."
This Summer the American car companies had the employee discounts which really put the Japanese strategy to its toughest test.
http://www.nytimes.com/2005/07/26/business/26toyota.html
Both cars will only be offered with the v6, contain their unique suspension systems as standard features, a few tweaks to the suspension for a sportier ride, and some comestics add on.
for anyone who wanted to know
are not strictly business decisions. Because American big 3 lost so much of
their market share over the last few years, Japanese are terrified that the US
government may impose restrictions on Japanese imports (quotas).
Many believe that the Japanese(especially Toyota) are down-playing their achieve-
ments and even trying to over-credit Koreans' progresses in the news media.
Toyota's CEO has been heard saying things to Korean media like "how can you
make such quality vehicles for such low prices?" or "We are scared of Hyundai."
I tend to think that's way too much of exaggeration. It's important to look through
the false pretenses and not take them as rock truths. Hyundai should keep its
eyes on the ball and try not to get mixed up with all the recent hoopla.
What do you guys think about the growing trend of Hybrids?
Toyota obviously is a leader in this field.
Honda is already coming out with Hybrid versions of Accords.
Even Hyundai/Kia is going to introduce Hybrid versions of Accent/Rio next year.
Do you think the trend will continue and spread out in the mid-size sedan sector?
Would you be willing to pay more money to switch to Hybrids?
I had many chances to drive Toyota Prius on several occasions and it's such a fun
car to drive. But, obviously the current price tag is way too high for my budget.
At what price would you consider switching to Hybrids?
Its funny how Hyundai can price their cars low, but Toyota and Honda cant because if they do they may face restrictions by the US goverment.
The employee discounts GM is having are not helping. GM lost 1.2 billion on auto sales last quarter, on sales of 1.3 mil vehicles. GM is losing money of each car.
About hybrids, they are slowly becoming popular. As the gas prices raise, they may become more appealing. I was considering the HAH (Honda accord hybrid) but its price was way too high.
IOW, at what price would you choose hybrid over regular Accord?
http://edition.cnn.com/2005/BUSINESS/07/08/korea.hyundai.reut/
Anyone have information on the second quarter earnings. The company is scheduled to post second quarter earnings on July 28.
Personally, I would not go for a hybrid unless the fuel savings had a payback time of 3 years or less.
The '05 Sonata I bought in April is only my 4th car since 1971, so I keep my cars for a long time. Anyone who changes cars every 3 or 4 years should look real hard at purchase price of gasoline vs hybrid, miles per year and MPG. If someone saves $300 per year on fuel but only keeps a car 4 years, is it worth it to pay an extra $4000 for the hybrid? Do the batteries in a hybrid have to be replaced at some point in time? If so, when and at what cost?
As I posted elsewhere, my 1365 mile trip from Naples, FL to southwest CT in April would have only cost $12 more at today's local area price ($2.439) compared to what I actually paid (prices from $2.109 to $2.349, average about $2.20). That's less than $.01 per mile at today's high prices.
That's just silly. Toyota and Honda will price their cars according to what their bean-counters tell them will make the most profit.
So the U.S. government has price restrictions against the Japanese, but not against Koreans, huh?