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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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You are correct. For double the price a BMW will not halve the acceleration, halve the stopping distance or get double the gas mileage. In the same way a steak dinner at Mortons for $200 will not have a steak 20 times as big as the Outback for $10.99.
Ooops! Read that one too fast I guess.
All the IIHS is doing there is showing us that their driver biased crash tests are matching up with driver rates of death. Makes perfect sense. Now how about the rest of the vehicle's occupants in those crashes? Are we not supposed to care about them? Is driver safety all the IIHS cares about because the driver is most likely the one paying their premiums? :confuse:
"The Altima Hybrid’s powertrain mates the 2.5-liter 4-cylinder engine and electronic Continuously Variable Transmission (eCVT) with an electric motor and generator that increases fuel economy while maintaining low tailpipe emissions. The Altima Hybrid’s hybrid system is rated at a net power of 198 horsepower (148 kW), with fuel economy estimated at 41 mpg City/36 mpg Highway.
Classified as an Advanced Technology-Partial Zero Emissions Vehicle (AT-PZEV), the new Altima Hybrid will be available in eight states. The vehicle has been certified to meet California emissions requirements and will be sold beginning in early 2007 in those states that have adopted California emissions regulations: California, New York, Massachusetts, Connecticut, Vermont, Rhode Island, Maine and New Jersey. These states are among the strongest markets for hybrid vehicles."
Which they probably were. I'm sure they only compared vehicles of the same size, with engines of comparable size, in the comparison. Do a comparison of the different Honda models yourself (if you really are curious), and I think you will find that in each instance the Honda model gets as good, or better mileage, than each competitors model. Yes, Toyota has the Prius, which gets better mileage than an Accord. But Honda has the Insight, which gets better mileage than any other car. What I am saying is, compare the Accord with the Camry, The Civic with the Corolla, the CRV with the Rav 4, and so on, and you will probably come to the same conclusion.
What Outback are you eating at? I've been to a few of them, and you'd be lucky to get a burger for $10.99 there!
A friend and co-worker owned a 98 Hyundai Accent. I rode in the car a couple of times, and I don't think there was one interior part of the car that wasn't coming apart. He used to have to get in from the passenger side, because the driver's door would not open. He obviously got what he paid for.
We have owned mercedes, volvo, bmw so i guess we know what a "drivers car" is whatever that means.
These cars are out of my price range.
Just to get the record straight, I said BMW was advertised as the "Ultimate Driving Machine", meaning they spend a lot of time developing the handling characteristics of their cars (sedans, that handle like sports cars). If you see a BMW ad, it will have the words "Ultimate Driving Machine" displayed somewhere in the ad (you can bank on it). So all I was saying is that BMW is more concerned with how the car drives, than how the paint looks. I'm sure if anyone compared their car, to a more expensive car, they could find something they thought was better on their car, than the more expensive car. If he said his Sonata handled better than a BMW, that would impress me a lot more than a paint comparison. Of course he could not say that, so he compares the paint instead. If you want to compare your car to another car, compare the total package, It's only fair.
Yes, and he probably paid very little. Did he own the car since it was new and take good care of it? Was the car in any accidents?
Yes, and No. The outside of the car looked as good as new. If I had never looked inside the car, I would have thought it was a decent car. He used to keep it nice and clean, and had some nice wheels on it. I could tell the interior was not held together by much, and was made from low grade plastics. Hyundai may have better quality interiors now, but IMO the looks have not improved.
Pics for views:
Elantra:
Santa Fe
Can you honestly compare a '98 Accent to an '06 or '07 Sonata.
I've had cars where the driver door wouldn't open in sub-freezing weather. No Problem with my current '05 Sonata last winter. The door opening, or not, was probably a simple adustment but Ididn't want to spend the $ on a 14 year old car that I was going to be getting rid of.
"If you want to compare your car to another car, compare the total package, It's only fair."
OK, that's a fair remark. But be sure to include the street price in the comparison. For example, back in '86 the Olds 98 and Caddy DeVille were the same car (minor appearance changes). The Olds was a couple thousand less than the Caddy and the Olds had more standard equipment. Comparing the Olds to the Caddy was a no brainer, unless one was willing/wanting to spend the extra $ to have the Caddy badge.
Interesting post... so I did the number crunching on the 5 vehicles where Honda and Toyota compete most often... ( the Fit/Yaris is too recent )
Assumptions:
.. Sept sales are used to obtain a weighted average for each 5 vehicle 'fleet'; i.e. the ,000's are rounded/dropped
.. All vehicles get EPA Hwy values in reallife ( For simplicity )
.. 100% of Accords and Camry's are 4c. ( For simplicity but wrong of course )
.. 100% of the Civics and Corollas are AT ( For simplicity )
Accord/Camry .. 278 / 341 ... 34/33 ( AT )
Civic/Corolla .. 252 / 306 ... 40/38 ( AT )
Ody/Sienna .. 139 / 122 ... 26/26
CRV/RAV .. 116 / 116 ... 29/30
Insight/Prius .. 1 / 81 ... 55/48 ( GH database )
The net result is close :
.. Honda has 786,000 vehicles on the road since Jan. It's weighted 'fleet' average is ... 33.8 mpg
.. Toyota has 966,000 vehicles on the road since Jan. It's weighted 'fleet' average is ... 34.6 mpg
It's mainly because Toyota has more of the more fuel efficient vehicles on the road ( Corolla & Prius ) thus increasing it's overall fleet average. The Accord/Camry, Ody/Sienna and CRV/RAV comparisons are a wash.
Huh?
You're not gonna convince anyone here (except the Hyundai club) that Hyundai is a better vehicle than most (altho the BMW 318 you refer to was probably the worst, most anemic model BMW ever let out of Spartanburg) based on your anecdotal experience with their cars.
Yea Hyundai has improved, but they have a looonnnggggg way to go before the American consumer holds them in the same regard as CamCords, or even Chevy pick-ups.
I'll pass on em.
However, it does have some time (2 yrs, 5 yrs, whatever) to go before the American consumer recognises them to be in the same league as Camcords.
I think (and you probably disagree) that the Sonata IS in the same league right now, today. Public perception often lags behind reality in many things.
If I was worry about gas saving, I would not buy a car with 235 HP, would not put Premium gas just so I can spin tires longer.
Clearly, your interest and mine are so far away from each other.
You save money, I will enjoy while I am driving. :P
"My neighbor/ best friend just bought(received from graduating high school) a new 2007 accord ex with all the goodies but 4 cyl for $15k." :confuse:
...............Your nose is getting longer.
autoboy, please scan us us an invoice...
The Santa Fe interior looks pretty good from the pic. Doesn't really stand out to me, but it looks quiet and tasteful. Which is what I like.
I haven't sat in any of the 2007s yet. I'll be sure to sometime when I have the dealer change the oil in my wife's 01 Elantra.
This is where Toyota has hit the sweet spot of the market.
'Normal' V6 power for the everyday driver and the fuel economy of a Civic or Corolla. This is a HUGE advancement.
Given the choice, I want the vehicle with the best efficient drive train that can be fast when you want it to be, and gas efficient when you want it to be. You can drive aggressively, or lackadaisically, but why would someone want the worst of all world's with the domestics?
My sister bought a new 93 excel, it lasted 42k miles with plenty of problems before the valve train totaled the top of the motor(The rail that held the valve rockers rattled loose, this was bad.) Okay I put a new top on the engine and away she went.
She totaled it at 58K miles by hitting a curb, yes that is what it took, thank god she never was in an accident in the thing. I think they assembled the entire car with liquid nails...
I really don't want to talk about the little stuff, frankly the "You Need a car!" was a joke. Of couse Cavaliers of the day were only somewhat better. :sick:
Anything under 200hp, is relatively weak, in terms of today's V6 power.
Most, all?, don't have any need for 250 or 260 or 270 hp in a midsized family vehicle.
We may not need 240hp or more, but that doesn't mean we don't want it.
'Normal' V6 power for the everyday driver and the fuel economy of a Civic or Corolla. This is a HUGE advancement.
Yes, it is. The Camry Hybrid is a very good car, and considering the gas mileage, probably worth every dollar it cost. But saying it has V6 power, is stretching it a bit.
The V6 power is excessive for my needs but the better FE of the Prius is of much more value to me. This after four ( 4c ) Camry's in a row since 1989.
That's a fair statement but I would say daylight still exists between the Accord/Camry and the Sonata.
I only drive about 7000 miles per year, so a 10% difference in MPG doesn't mean too much. For someone driving 20-25K per year, that 10% means much more.
Similar situation with gas prices, a few cents a gallon doesn't mean much. But the big jumps we saw this spring/summer, 5 & 10 cents at a clip every week or so, add up quickly. I just filled up yesterday: $2.459, 17 days prior it was $2.779. That was about $4.50 less to fill up. If there was a 2 cent difference, which some seem to get concerned about, I'd have only been looking at 28 cents.
I know someone who decided to cancel a road trip "because of the high price of gas." 300 mile round trip, all highway. They get 27+ mpg on highway. So even if gas were $1 higher than last year, they'd be looking at about $11 more for gas than last year. Not worth cancelling a trip for in my opinion. It's the regular daily drive where the price of gas is most important.
First you say this,
The V6 power is excessive for my needs
Then you say that. You are contradicting yourself.
He never says "it has V6 power" then says "it doesn't".
I mean, the 2007 Altima 4 cyl. makes 175 hp, while the Altima V6 makes 270 hp.
I've driven the Camry Hybrid, and it feels more like a nice, strong 4 cylinder than a V6.
Don't believe me? This is the same magazine that claimed a 2005 Infiniti G35 MT hit 60 in 5.9 seconds. They also claimed the new Jaguar XK does 60 in 5.9. According to Car And Driver the Honda Accord coupe can run with Infiniti G35's and Jaguar XK's? Keep telling yourself that.
Last month they claimed the new BMW 335i did 60 in 4.8 seconds. Or about as fast as the last Porsche 911 Carrera 4S and faster than an Astin Martin V8 Vantage.
Also consider the C&D test was performed in 2003, before the new SAE ratings. For all you know that version of the Accord may have had substantially less than 240 hp.
As indicated in the story of someone canceling a trip due to the cost of the gas, many people are extremely irrational when it comes to gasoline prices.
Wow! can you say.. Brainwashed.. :surprise:
Hate to tell ya.. I am very happy with my "domestic" product.
I was happy with domestics too. Used to think all brands were basicly the same quality. Then I bought my first Honda, and found out they are not all created equal. Until you know what you're missing, it's easy to be satisfied.
What is the problem with the accord running with a Jag and the G35? I mean, even a neon srt-4 can run with and actually beat those cars 0-60 and the 1/4.
What about the bmw 335i, what's the problem here? The fact that it's as fast as an M3? That's right. Motortrend dyno tested a new twin-turbo 335i, and guess what, it came out to be significantly more than the rated numbers. 350hp/350 lb-ft at the crank. Way more powerful than an M3. Makes sense, doesn't it?
Car and driver also tested the sedan version of the accord, and it got 0-60 in 6 seconds, so it didn't matter what the bodystyle was. However, it is worth noting that automatic-equipped accords usually do 0-60 in about a second more than the manual transmission ones.
But honestly, I have no idea why I'm defending the accord. I'd rather be driving an altima with some actual low-end torque.
The reason I brought up the 335i is becaused C&D's review of it was highly inaccurate. They also tested the new 335Ci and recorded a time of 5.1 seconds. The coupe is lighter than the sedan by about two hundred pounds, it should have been faster, but somehow C&D thinks the sedan is magically faster.
And no, the current M3 still has about 30 more hp than the 335i and is still much, much lighter.
Just as an fyi. If you link over motortrend.com, they dynoed a 335i. They measured 300hp at the rear wheels. So it is not improbable for a 4.7/8 sprint to 60 with an automatic. And, also C&D does adjust the numbers, but that car is still fast and tops out at 150 with US specs. If you look at the torque band you can see the power kicking in at 1400 rpm.
Here's the same number, 0-60 in 5.9 sec. ACCORD SEDAN, not a Coupe.
Yes I own a Camry, but also a Boxter S and Lexus RX
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