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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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I'm excited about Autumn of 2008 for alot of reasons! I get to see a new accord, Its my senior year in high school, I get to vote for president, and I should have almost enough money saved for a 2005-2007 Tl! 2004 has a few to many -oxymoron- issues for me! Maybe by then the price of diesel will drop below $2.60!
-Cj
I just got to vote in my first major election, so I know how you feel about getting to vote soon. It's something more people should be proud to be able to do IMO.
They never have realistic drawings this far out.
I wonder what kind of preview pics were on the web one year before the last Accord debuted?
It's intersting about the the diesel in 2009 though(which probably means it will actually be a 2010 model year Accord).
That front end is one of the most hideous I've ever seen on a vehicle. I sure hope it's toned down for production.
http://automobiles.honda.com/fcx/index.aspx?RURL=/info/news/
A slight vibration from the Hyundai's 4 is NOT indication of poor design/workmanship. The Hyundai's 4 is actually quite smooth, its just that the Camry's, IMO, is probably the smoothest out there. Neither is the quickest 4 cyl sedan (with the Sonata about a second behind the Camry and Fusion to 60, according to CR, and a good second and a half back from the Accord), but for the price of 4 cyl Camry, you can get a Sonata V6, which is very strong and calm.
~alpha
Driving a car infrequently and for short trips is much harder on a car then driving it for longer distanes more often. As long as we are sharing anectdotal evidence, the Honda has been on the back of a hook more times than any other car I've had. Do I think this is common? No.
Common for a Honda, no. Common for a Malibu, absolutely. I know of a few others, one guy bought the Malibu for his daughter, and had to sell it, and take a loss, just to get rid of the piece of crap.
What year? How many miles? How many coolant changes?
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Among the midsize cars, Sonata and Mazda6 looks good. Fusion looks okay too. Altima, G6 aren't bad even though their interiors need some work (I haven't seen the new CVT Altima --- I plan to see one since I want to buy one). Camry has the odd 7-series butt while Accord lacks a front grille. Aura like its predecessor has an unusual shape that I can't stand.
Bye the way, here's a new report on quality:
http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/061109/auto_reliability.html?.v=10
http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/08/autos/cr_most_reliable/index.htm
With articles like these more and more consumers are going to question.. Is the extra $2-4,000 really worth it for an Accord/Camry? Nope.... :P
2001, 40k, 1. The cooling system gasket failed, ignition switch failed, brake rotors bad 3 or 4 times, and constant squeaking. My 92 Accord with 140k miles was in better shape than his 01 Malibu with 40k miles, and that is ridiculous.
Oh, I would not say they are not reliable. Just not very good quality. They may last 100k miles, but not without some help along the way. They are just very unrefined cars, to say the least. And I have driven some of the 06 models (Impala for a week) and they haven't improved much, if at all.
You say that like it is the last word, mate.
You didn't see that a Honda or Toyota was worth $2,000 more than a Fusion, but about 800,000 buyers disagreed with you last year. Was it worth it to me? Definitely. I just couldn't see spending $21K on an interior which seemed dated, and ergonomically challenged interior or coarser engines. Reliability is not quality, and quality is not reliability.
I have a Bic pen that has never burst on me, and always writes when I want it to, but there is an obvious quality difference between a Bic and my Paper-Mate gel pen. Both are reliable, but one is much higher quality.
Don't get those mixed up, my friend.
Yes, but don't forget, all other carmakers haven't quit spending dollars on R&D either.
More like "Baby steps"/
One ignition switch. Maybe $200 to replace.
Brake rotors. Bad 3 or 4 times? What's "bad"? Someone tried resurfacing rotors? You replace rotors, you don't resurface them. Same rotors can't be bad.
Someone wasn't doing regular checks and maintenance.
I recall you're a pro Honda person. So the squeaks were matched by the rattles and squeaks in the 2003 Accord I test drove before I bought the quiet leSabre. (The Camry was quieter than the Accord.)
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Whats funny about that is a 93 Accord was the one that spent all its time on a hook.
2x distributor failed
1x main relay failed
1x ignition switch failed
1x radiator failed
1x brake master cylinder failed
(everything but the master cylinder and the main relay was during the first 7 years of its life).
Those were just times it actually left someone stranded, not all the repairs.
I still don't hate the car or anything, and I'm sure it was a statistical anomaly but it certainly hasn't been better than the Contour.
Nobody is saying anyone should buy a Fusion over something else. We're just saying that reliability is no longer a reason NOT to buy one.
We (meaning some on the board) might be saying this but I'm not on the same page with regard to this thought.
Until longer term reliability and quality equals the Japanese competitors, we (meaning my dollars) are staying away from Ford products. Ford is not there yet.
If you want to purchase a Ford product for me, I would be happy to accept.
Regardless how well the car is engineered there will be visits to the dealer. If the dealership is unreliable and untrustworthy (IMHO 80% of all dealers are)then simple repairs are amplified into defects in the eyes of the consumer.
Most of the highway dealer service depts employ "replacement mechanics" who couldn't diagnose a brick wall if they walked into one!!!
A reliable source told me that, as a dealer tech, he was offered a bonus if he finished a repair sooner than the factory allotted time.
I had a chrysler minivan for 9 years - My Chrysler dealer (not on the Hwy and privately owned) is excellent. Except for regular service I had the right front axle replaced(warrantee)and the steering rack - also warrantee. There were 3 recalls.
5 visits - No " we tightened this up -see how it is" kind of service.
My neighbor bought a Mazda 3 from a highway dealer. Not 30 days old - When parked for more than two days his battery went dead.
For the first three visits they kept his car for at least 2 days and charged his battery.
The 4th (2 Days) visit they changed his battery.
The 5th(3 days) visit they charged his new battery.
The 6th visit they diagnosed that his defroster was not turning off - there was no factory fix at this time - they offered to disconnect it or he has to live with it.
There will be no more Mazda's in his garage.
Japanese cars are more refined than American cars. The US brands are catching up But Highway dealers can ruin any brand!!
I drive the brands that reputable dealers sell
Maybe one day I'll move out of NJ and buy an Accord or even a Fusion.
-the good mechanics have generally long since left the dealership to go out on his own, something along the lines of 'if they are charging $75/hour for my time, why am I working for $20 or $25'
- the dealer (and for that matter the independents) emphasize speed in doing a job, as opposed to necessarily doing something right - something along the lines of the 'book' allows me to charge for 2 hours of your time to do this brake job - but if you are a 'good' employee you will do it in 1 hour.
- and lastly, there ceases to be a 'reward' system for 'finding' other perceived problems.
A good honest mechanic or dealer service dept.? Might be as rarer than the bald eagle. And something that transcends brand loyalties - there are bad ones all over the place.
Since 1990 I've owned 2 rangers, a lincoln LS and an expedition that were all kept for at least 5 years with NO problems. No pieces fell off the dash. There were no rattles. Nothing was broken. Everything still worked. The drivetrain was as good as new.
It's not 1980. Fords don't fall apart after a few years. I realize it will take awhile for people to believe this, but to keep perpetuating this myth while ignoring objective data that says otherwise is just vindictive and biased.
http://money.cnn.com/2006/11/08/autos/cr_most_reliable/index.htm
With articles like these more and more consumers are going to question.. Is the extra $2-4,000 really worth it for an Accord/Camry? Nope...."
What does this report do to your 'media is biased to Ford' theroy? Blow it out of the weeds?
I said it before in that discussion; make a good product, the media will report accordingly. What better case in point that this example of the Fusion/Milan CR report.
I would like to hear your spin on this.
Because my preference is empirical (based on observation). And my bro-in-law who just had his 2005 Ford bought back under the lemon law, probably won't be buying any more Fords either, has an empirical observation (sic) as well.
What kind of 2005 Ford was it?
Again, if your personal preference is not to buy a Ford because of past problems that's fine. But you can't use the experiences of 2 people to predict the reliability of hundreds of thousands of vehicles.
1 or 2 Fords have a problem, the whole brand is unreliable and will fall apart in a few years.
1 or 2 Hondas have a problem and it's just an isolated incident.
If you want to make generalizations about an entire model or make you have to use objective unbiased and statistically valid data. Right now the only data we have (from CR and from Ford's internal reliability survey) that comes close to that criteria says that the Fusion is at least as reliable as an Accord or Camry.
If you have similar data that proves otherwise please post a link.
1 or 2 Hondas have a problem and it's just an isolated incident.
OK. I'll bite.
Go sit in a 94 Ford Probe, for example.
Feel the door trim. Push against it. Feel the air vents. Move them up and down.
Now drive it. See how the shifter feels. See how it feels over bumps/broken pavement.
Now do the same thing with a 94 Acura Integra.
Now come back and tell me you don't want to eat your words.
The jury is still out on the Fusion, obviously. It is nice that those Mexican autoworkers can apparently produce a 'better' car than those UAW guys, but you got to remember that the powertrains are older (read 'more proven' if you would like) than Methusala, and Ford (in this case) has all the time in the world for QC because they can't seem to sell the Fusion in any numbers that you would logically think it could.
1st year studies, notwithstanding, it will be several years before we know if Ford or any of the 'US' mfgrs. have even approached the standards set by those 'Camcords' etc.. I hope they do, more good choices for the car buyer.
Is that for the 6 or speed6? I assume it is for whatever is left of the 2006 models?
"If you want to make generalizations about an entire model or make you have to use objective unbiased and statistically valid data"
You are making generalizations about a company based on one product that has been out for a very short length of time? Talk about data validity. I don't have to disprove or justify anything, I'm voting with my wallet based on personal experience. Let's do this, let's look at CRs reliability study across Ford products for the last 5 years and CRs reliability study for Toyota products over the last 5 years. Now let's do longer, maybe 8 years. Let's take every single model. Is there a pattern?
Notwithstanding Bill Ford's passionate tv commercials, I don't see Ford as producing cars that I want in my garage.