Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

elroy5

How many Honda owners can really say that? not many..

Some were paid for the day they bought them.

thegraduate

I pay just $225.00 a month for a Fusion SEL V6 loaded with all options. I pay an extra $50 a month so the car will be paid for in about 3-4 years. How many Honda owners can really say that? not many..

Ok, and we pay $240 a month, 3-year term, for my 2006 Accord. Are you impressed? Probably not, because stating your payment means nothing when taxes and trade-ins, as well as down payments, will differ for everyone. Forgive us for not joining in your boastful enthusiasm.

sicom007

I need advice from the members on which Car to buy. 2007 Camry SE 4cyl or the 2007 Accord SE 4cyl.

The Camry that I drove has the following options & prices

Base MSRP - 21,940 Invoice - 19,525
Package EJ - 1,000 750
Package SR - 940 752
Package CF - 199 126
Package RF - 200 160
Destination - 620 620
----------------------------------------------------
Total MSRP - 24,899 Invoice - 21,933

California Emissions[16] (CA)
- Color-Keyed Rear Lip Spoiler (RF)
- JBL® AM/FM 6-Disc In-Dash CD Changer w/8 Speakers in 6 Locations, Satellite Radio Capability[7], MP3/WMA Playback Capability, Aux. Audio Jack, and Bluetooth®[8] Wireless Technology. (EJ)
- Moonroof Package includes: Power Tilt/Slide Moonroof w/Sliding Sunshade, Dual Illuminated Visor Vanity Mirrors w/Dimmer Control & Rear Personal Reading Lights (SR)

I am getting it for $21,800 + taxes etc for $23,970 on road in SFO Bay area.

I also test drove the 2007 Accord SE whose drive I liked more than the Camry (less noisy & quiet) but I like the looks and features in the Camry. The price on the Accord is
19,988 + tax.

Since I have to decide on which to buy I need some expert opinions on the cars above. I will really appreciate it.

Thanks

backy

What are your requirements? Which one meets them better?

Which do you like driving better?

They are both excellent cars. If both cars meet your requirements equally as well and you like driving each one equally as well, buy based on price.

honda28

Maybe the Accords aren't very popular as rentals due to the harsh ride and the Camrys are more popular for rentals and that explains the lack of Accords.

The Accord may not be Buick cushy but it is definatly not harsh by any strech of the imagination...also...Honda purposely puts a very few Accords into fleet use due solely to resale values.... :confuse:

brightness04

If a Fusion has a 49% residual and Camry has a 48% residual and assuming the initial cost of both vehicles is the same, the Fusion is PREDICTED to have a higher resale value (wholesale, retail, trade-in) than the Camry.

And how many people actually believe that prediction? Ford's own captive financial arm may pretend to take the number seriously, with some winks, only because it's a matter of passing money from one pocket to the other within the company itself.

brightness04

ALG numbers were what caused several banks to lose hundreds of millions of dollars in the last decade underwriting leases. As far as I know, third-party banks are no longer using ALG numbers. The car companies still do because the inflated residuals make it easier to book higher sales for the current quarter.

brightness04

I doubt either Honda or Toyota are giving special deals to Hertz like Ford and GM (to Avis) do. Rental companies stock some of their models may entirely due to lower operating cost and lower depreciation. There are taxicab companies that stock Odyssey and Sienna . . . not due to either Honda or Toyota dumping at all.

ontop

Camry's....everyday...Odessey

Check your writing skills before you post your brilliance.

Funny - I see zero Hondas in the rental lots around me. But Fusions out the yang. How can that be?

And check out how many Siennas there are in NYC as taxis.

akirby

Fine - point out another unbiased source of residual values.

bobad

I bought a Mazda 6 S Demo for 18,900 with a 6 cylinder engine. It has a comfortable saddle, it goes exactly where you put it, and it tracks like its on rails. Not to mention the interior is not crappy looking. No thanks. Hyundai still has some catching up to do.

The Mazda6 I drove rode like a log wagon, and was way too noisy. I thought the interior was hideous. No, it was beyond hideous. It would scare little kids. All subjective, of course.

honda28

I too see many, many Camry's on a Hertz lot I pass everyday on my way to work, along a freeway. I have also seen Accords/Civic/CRV/Odessey in rental fleets. Maybe not as many, but they are there.

Intresting....my wife and I just booked a rent a car for trip to visit her family in Seattle...we ended up with a Grand Caravan...I really would have liked a Odyssey like im used to driving ....but there were none to be found.....What rental agency are you refering to?

waygrabow

I have had the same experience. Some cars might be nice to own, but I don't have to put up with a sales organization which makes it seem like they are doing me a favor in allowing me to buy one.

kdshapiro

"Ok, let's try this again."

ALG focuses on leasing residuals. This has a big effect on cars coming off lease because the owner of the vehicle is on the hook for the difference between the residual and the auction price. Leasing residuals have little to do with private party or used car sales.

Said another way, private sales or used car dealer sales has nothing to do with the price a vehicle fetches at an auction.

waygrabow

"The Mazda6 I drove rode like a log wagon, and was way too noisy. I thought the interior was hideous. No, it was beyond hideous. It would scare little kids. All subjective, of course."

Subjectively, of course, what dream chariot do you own?

jimmy81

Subjectively, of course, what dream chariot do you own?

Wow - let's take a wild guess. Someone trashed his cherished Sonata, so he in turn trashes that guy's Mazda.
Go figure. Apparently the real truth is somewhere near the middle (altho I'll cast my vote for the 6 over the Sonata every day of the week/month/year/decade/score/centennial/millennium......)

akirby

This has a big effect on cars coming off lease because the owner of the vehicle is on the hook for the difference between the residual and the auction price.

Not on this planet. The company that leases the vehicle has already been paid whatever they're going to get from the customer. They have to take the vehicle and sell it. If they can get more than the estimated residual value then they keep it. If they get less then they eat it. That's why the lease residual is a good estimate of wholesale value. Some manufacturers may overestimate the residual to lower the lease cost but they pay for it at lease end.

I agree that residual values are wholesale and won't reflect a retail or private party price - that will obviously be higher. But it stands to reason that if 2 vehicles have the same initial price and the same residual value that the private party and retail prices will be the same. At least on my planet. YPMV.

kdshapiro

I would agree, but for the following: The residual value is set by the lessee at the beginning of the lease. X years hence that vehicle has a maximum predetermined value based on the lease agreement. As you noted, differences between payments and wholesale is profit or loss.

On the other hand, there is no minimum or maximum on a non-lease vehicle. The car simply has a value driven by demand/supply and vehicle quality. Manufacturers defects and recalls or extreme reliability will effect the resale value, which has nothing to do with the predetermined value of the car at the end of lease.

akirby

Manufacturers defects and recalls or extreme reliability will effect the resale value, which has nothing to do with the predetermined value of the car at the end of lease.

Of course, but those things WILL affect the residual values going forward.

If we had 3 year old Fusions then we could compare the resale value of a 3 year old Fusion with a 3 yr old Accord, Camry, etc. But we don't, so the best we can do is the ALG estimate of residual values. It's only an estimate and it might be different but there's nothing to suggest that the Fusion won't keep that high resale value (very few incentives, no oversupplies, no dumping into rental fleets, almost 0 defects).

jaxs1

Desirability on the used car market is important.
If they see them priced at used car lot near the price of an Accord or Camry many will say: "Wow, it's listed at almost the same price as an Accord. I guess I'll just get the Accord then."

jimmy81

there's nothing to suggest that the Fusion won't keep that high resale value

Wanna bet? That FORD emblem still says Ford. Therein lies the problem.

jeffyscott

The Mustang has a FORD emblem also, yet it seems to have good resale value.

baggs32

The Mustang has a FORD emblem also, yet it seems to have good resale value.

Actually there are no Ford emblems, blue ovals if you will, to be found on the GT (I think some of the V6 wheels have the blue oval). In fact, the only place the word Ford appears on the Mustang GT is in the medallion on the trunk. Not a blue oval, just the word FORD in caps.

Furthermore, the only place the word Mustang appears is on the brushed aluminum sill plates which are optional and hidden by the door most of the time. Not too many cars can forgo the corporate emblem and nameplate yet still be recognized by everyone.

Oh, and the optional plenum cover under the hood does say "POWERED BY FORD" too. Still no blue oval though.

akirby

There's nothing inherent about Ford that means lower resale. Lower resale has been the result of poor quality, high rental fleet sales and overproduction.

The Fusion has the best quality so far of any Ford product ever. The rental fleet sales are minimal and they're not overproducing.

The Taurus is gone - it's not 1995 anymore.

meateater

So after 1 model year you've annointed the Fusion with the best quality of any Ford product EVER ? Wow. So a 100 year old company's 99 other years were all bested by the Fusion? Pretty sad. I think the Fusion is a B/B+. At best. And being kind.

Resale value will be determined by what people will pay for a used Ford, not by what some journalist or reviewer thinks. I'm betting on the market to ascribe Ford values to a Ford with a one year history.

qbrozen

Said another way, private sales or used car dealer sales has nothing to do with the price a vehicle fetches at an auction.

You didn't really mean that the way it sounds, did you? you can't possibly believe that auction values (ie, trade-in values) do not impact the retail value. The retail is a direct reflection of the auction price. Dealers certainly can't make a living selling BELOW auction prices, and those who price too far above auction prices will be outsold right out of business.

akirby

So after 1 model year you've annointed the Fusion with the best quality of any Ford product EVER ? Wow. So a 100 year old company's 99 other years were all bested by the Fusion? Pretty sad. I think the Fusion is a B/B+. At best. And being kind.

I'm using facts, not my totally biased opinion.

Let me rephrase: The Fusion has the lowest defect rate (things gone wrong) in the first year of production than any other Ford product has ever had. It also beat the Accord and Camry in that same category, so it's not like the bar was too low.

The Ford bashers need to find something else to bash because the Fusion is rock solid reliable.

kdshapiro

"It also beat the Accord and Camry in that same category, so it's not like the bar was too low."

I don't think it beats either the Accord or Camry. And since I vote with *my* dollars, not blindly go bottom line of some journalist review**, Honda or Toyota win. When the big three figure how to produce a car *I* want, I'll buy one.

**journalist reviews are useful in a sense and I enjoy reading them. But I don't base my purchase decisions on a review.

akirby

I think that's exactly what he meant. He obviously doesn't understand how cars are sold and priced.

kdshapiro

Yes I do. A lot of cars on dealers lots do not come from off-lease auctions. It all starts with supply and demand, not dealer auctions. High supply and low demand will kill the price at the auctions, not the other way around.

akirby

Who said anything about a journalist review? I'm talking about a very specific and objective metric - number of defects (things gone wrong). This is from Ford's own Global Quality Research System and before you say that it's biased to Ford, there were 2 non-fords rated higher than the Fusion:

According to the GQRS, the Milan had 1,149 TGW and the Fusion had 1,172 TGW, just behind the Dodge Stratus with 1,066 and the Chevy Malibu with 1,073 and ahead of the Toyota Camry with 1,193 and the Honda Accord with 1,353. The rankings reflect things gone wrong per 1,000 vehicles at three months service.

In the mid-size luxury class, the Lincoln Zephyr had 1,119 TGW, second only to the Lexus 330 with 943.

akirby

Supply and Demand affect all prices, not just retail. If more people are buying a certain used car (retail) then the auction prices will go up as more people bid for the same used cars.

Most used cars come from auctions. Why would a used car sales manager pay $16K for a trade-in when he can get the exact same car from an auction for $14K? It might show $16K on the buyer's sheet but the other $2K has to come from the new car. That's why trade-in prices are always higher than wholesale.

The ONLY exception is if a dealer needs or wants a specific vehicle or if it's a rare vehicle (supply and demand).

Auctions represent wholesale values. Lease returns and most trade-ins are auctioned. The auction price determines the retail price. If there is higher demand/lower supply then both the retail and wholesale price will go up. And if there is lower demand/higher supply they'll both go down.

qbrozen

Ok, so I thought you were saying the 2 were unrelated. But what you are saying is that, while there is a direct correlation between them, retail prices dictate auction prices.

I don't want to get into the "chicken or the egg" argument because I don't feel there is one answer here. Yes, I agree that, if customers are demanding a certain used car, that will drive up auction prices. However, I feel its pretty obvious that if 10,000 cars of a particular model show up at one auction, the auction prices will be lower for that car on that day, regardless of demand on the retail side. A sudden glut or shortage on either side of the market can change prices.

beantown

Let me rephrase: The Fusion has the lowest defect rate (things gone wrong) in the first year of production than any other Ford product has ever had. It also beat the Accord and Camry in that same category, so it's not like the bar was too low.

The Ford bashers need to find something else to bash because the Fusion is rock solid reliable.

You may want to reword this to the following:

the Fusion is rock solid reliable when it is three months old. After all, the "facts" you cite are from a study done at the new cars' three month service appt. It frightens me that you are annointing this car the best Ford has ever done based off of a single study of a handful of cars that aren't even broken in. Yikes.

Come back with statistical evidence when these cars are 8-10 years old with 100,000 miles and we'll talk. After all, that is the F-Series wheelhouse right now....based off their ads. The Fusion has a long way to go to show it can hang with the big boys long-term.

plekto

He got you there.

Fords are well known for being like GM cars in that the drivetrains are good, but the interior and electricals and accessories jsut about disintegrate on you by ten years, The junk they dare call leather on the seats might last five years before it is falling apart.

But I'm sure it's a fine car now. Even a Kia Rio is pretty good the first year.

guest

"If they were referring to noise at full throttle, it appears they weren't spreading rumors--77.1 Db is pretty noisy for a V6 sedan."

And you can tell the difference of 3db with a human ear? Looks like the Honda is pretty noisy also at full throttle. The numbers don't lie. The Fusion is as quiet as a Camry or Accord. So, yes, this person was spreading mis-information once again about Ford products.. :P

captain2

kind of like the JDP Initial Quality - means nothing. As many posters note here all has to do with longer term issues. By this study, we'd all be hurrying down to the rental lots and buying those paragons of quality and virtue - the Stratus and/or the Malibu - just goes to show you how ridiculous numbers like this can be!

guest

"Wanna bet? That FORD emblem still says Ford. Therein lies the problem. "

Wow! There is a bias perception at its best! :shades:

jeffyscott

Fords are well known for being like GM cars in that the drivetrains are good, but the interior and electricals and accessories jsut about disintegrate on you by ten years, The junk they dare call leather on the seats might last five years before it is falling apart.

Well in my 10 year old Ford the only significant problem was related to the drive train. Interior and electricals and accessories are fine, as is the body.

No leather in my case. My wife's parents have a Crown Vic and the leather is certainly not falling apart, I think it is 6-8 years old.

Now I do know a guy with a 1-2 year old Honda minivan who just had the leather replaced on one of the rear seats. Perhaps this was due to abuse by his kid, but sure does not seem like it was real durable stuff.

While I would pay little attention to anything based on 90 days, at 10 years much of the condition may relate mostly to how the car has been maintained.

guest

akirby, If people would get out on the net and read other Forums they will see the Fusion/Milan are a rock solid sedan. You will always have those few that are so blinded by the media constantly bashing Ford/GM and thinking Ford/GM will never build a sedan to match Honda/Toyota.
This is exactly what Ford/GM have to hurdle now, image. They build good, reliabile vehicles but there are those that won't even go into the showroom. It is going to take a good 10 years for Ford/GM to overcome this image issue. In the mean time I know I own a top notch sedan built by Ford Motor Company. I know I paid thousands less than a comparable Camry/Accord and I know I have a better value. In my book Toyota/Honda have lost the value in their offerings.

captain2

fyi the decibel scale is logarithmic, meaning that small differences in dB translate into large differences in real noise (full throttle). Actually, these figures do substantiate the most objectionable part of the Fusion - the engine is a meat grinder when 'pushed'!

backy

Interestingly, the Fusion V6 is noiser at full throttle by C/D's measurements than all but one (Caliber) of the econoboxes they tested a couple of months ago.

akirby

Yes, the results were in the first 3 months of ownership. But all of the other anecdotal evidence (dealers, owners, etc.) is backing this up on models that are over a year old. While we can't predict long term reliability from the first year I don't think it's reasonable to think a car will be perfect the first year and fall apart in year 5.

lahiri

Now I'm completely confused. 0% is 0% --- you don't save on interest by paying off early.

akirby

That's funny - I don't find anything objectionable about the engine noise at WOT. Most midsize sedan drivers will never exceed 50% throttle anyway. I'd be more worried about idle and normal driving noise.

captain2

maybe you don't exceed 50% throttle simply because its sounds so bad if you do? It is all I can do to discipline myself to keep my engine (Toyota 2GR) speeds below redline, it gets there so quickly, smoothly, and quietly - and it is fun! And I would suggest that you would find the same condition in the Honda and Nissan V6s.

akirby

I didn't say I didn't exceed 50% throttle. I was referring to the average driver of a midsize sedan, not enthusiasts. We're not talking about sports cars here. Most people just don't drive these cars aggressively.

backy

I agree. Probably lots of owners of mid-sized sedans who never get remotely close to redline. I never get close to redline even on my 2.0L 138 hp compact.

captain2

you miss my point, it is the fact that the DT 3.0 sounds (and feels) as strained as it does; relative to any of the 'Japanese' engines. It is things like smooth easily reved engines that impresses folks especially on a test drive whether they use it or not - perhaps the #1 reason why the Fusion has met with such a lukewarm response. As I have said several times, concerning both the Fusion and the 500 - if only Ford had been able to put even the Hyundai engines in these cars, those "Ford bashers" would have much much less to talk about...

thegraduate

I certainly you aren't referring to jimmy as being biased, because he's just the messenger for the buyer market, don't shoot him.

If Ford was as good as you claim it is, and if its reputation weren't a problem, why would basically every Ford product come with thousands in rebates? Wouldn't they be able to sell at higher prices if they were as good as the actual higher-priced models made by other manufacturers. It's not biased perception, but it is indeed perception.

People who say "your only 'perceive' the quality to be less, man, it's actually better" just floor me. If you don't "perceive" something's quality, how else do you determine it? Answer me that, and I'll eat my hat.