Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options

Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

1168169171173174235

Comments

  • lilengineerboylilengineerboy Member Posts: 4,116
    Its depressing in a way. So many cars are aimed at women, there are no "masculine" cars unless you want to get a poseur soccer mom SUV glorified station wagon, or a "cross over" so you still have a compromised on-road ride with little or no real off-road capability which would never get used anyway.
    I am lucky as the car decisions get largely left to me, even for her cars, and she is a lot less picky (her only requirement was a manual transmission) so its a lot easier to help her pick something out.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I don't feel like my Accord is "sexist" :P ...I don't see it being aimed at one gender or another. I guess you could say its aimed a little more at men (sporty handling over cushy ride) who tend to be more enthusiastic about driving than women, but that isn't always the case.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    potato or pahtatoe, it is really the same. If I offer an employee $50k to effectively quit intead of having to pay him a few thousand a month as an employee, the money I save is well down the road. Ford, in this case, is doing what they need to do, but still may not be able to survive it - because all that money they are spending getting 'rid' of too many employees can not be spent on developing new and better products. They may get healthier but there will be no market left for what they sell. Effectively, everybody else passed them while they were having to take a few steps back.
    IMPO, Ford, at this point, would be better off getting out of the car business altogether and concentrate on the one thing left they do very well - trucks and SUVs.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Ford will stop bleeding. Eventually they will crawl back up like Chrysler did after their bankruptcy. GM? Bleeding out is still bleeding out, and eventually they will loose everything if they can't get it under control.

    Masculine? The Cadillacs come to mind. Very agressive and square. A big black Lucerne certainly isn't "girly" either. Honda? Definately metrosexual. Right in the middle and unfortunately, pretty soulless as a result(though they do have a couple of good looking cars).

    Best overall has to go to Mazda. Very nice looking cars and decent sheetmetal work. Not a total jellybean.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    What you say is pretty good. I don't agree with the Lucerne thing.

    This looks awfully feminine to me with its overly large rounded eyes and grille image

    Not nearly as crisp as the front end of the Accord. I'm not saying the Accord is manly, but I don't think the Lucerne is more manly than the sharper edged Accord.

    image

    I know styling is subjective though, so I'm not gonna argue that you are wrong, because neither of us is!
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It's not the same thing. Jobs bank keeps the costs on the books indefinitely which affects your future profit/loss. A one time buyout takes cash but gets written off up front and you eliminate the ongoing employee costs and factory costs every year from now on. That's a huge step.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    a huge step all right - the more US employees they can buy out, the more Mexican ones they can eventually hire!
    Over the long term you are almost right, over the shorter term - it spells disaster for anyone thinking that new Ford is anything other than yesterday's/yesteryear's product. Unfortunately, they will have no cash to spend to develop anything truly good for quite some time - if they do survive....
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    How does getting rid of excess capacity hurt anything?
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If you flood the market with your excess capacity (something done with rebates and discounts) then you have a car whose resale absolutely stinks (sounds like the Taurus once did), hurting brand image.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    No, no, no. Excess PLANT capacity, not excess cars.

    Giving workers buyouts and closing plants or shifts will save the company money and prevent them from overproducing and flooding the market with too many vehicles.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Ahh, forgive me; got two different arguments mixed up.

    What I said is generally true I believe, but not really relevant to what you were saying. I apologize after re-reading.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    it doesn't, and it is exactly what Ford must do if it is going to survive.
    But, large checks are being written to these 'laid-off' autoworkers, cash that is not available for Ford to anything constructive with in terms of product development. Furthermore, if I understand the UAW contracts with the automakers, one of the most expensive tiems that the Cos. must maintain is the outrageous pension/retirement plans that they agreed to. And I would be willing to bet that this funding will continue even for those that are laid-off.

    Ford, as it needs to be right now, is being controlled by the beancounters who logically have no use or appreciation for good cars and unfortunately Bill Ford is no Carlo Ghosn!
  • patpat Member Posts: 10,421
    Time to get back to the cars! ;)
  • carchasecarchase Member Posts: 3
    Looking for possibly a mid-size sedan. Can you help with suggestions?
    Luxurious economy car (with options) or Economical luxury car (less expensive)
    Leather interior
    Quiet drive
    Attractive but not flashy
    4-door, easy to get child car seat in and out
    Not too big
    Feels stable when taking turns or driving 80 mph
    Can do well on regular unleaded or mid-grade

    Thanks for your input!
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    there are no sedans that offer easy in and out for the car seat, at least if you are about my height(a bit over 6 ft).
    maybe my age too. ;)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Among V6 comparisons, Motor Trend and Edmunds.com (available on this site) pick Camry, Consumer Reports picks Accord.

    If you can deal with its ugly interior, the Sonata is cheapest, strong performer, and offers a boat load of features. Only negative is resale value and 'Acceptable' rating in IIHS side impact.

    Fusion is super capable, extremely reliable in its first year according to CR, but scores only 'Acceptable' in both IIHS frontal and offset crashes. The class standard is 'Good.

    Best thing to do is try for yourself. I'd say skip the Mailbu and G6, but check out the Aura XR if your likings run toward GM.

    Finally, don't discount the Subaru Legacy, which is a bit slow with the base engine, but otherwise, an awesome vehicle. And the only midsizer that at $22K MSRP earns an 'IIHS Top Pick Gold' award, or whatever its called. Plus it's got AWD, is more manueverable than the bigger midsizers, and has a great company backing it.

    ~alpha
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    The Accord sounds perfect for you. Reviewers have commented on how easy it is to install a car seat, compared to some of the other mid-sizers. The Accord feels stable at any speed, and with side airbags is as safe as they get. Seems most people are content with the 4 cylinder version, but I just love the effortless way the V6 moves this car. It does not have the smoothest ride, or the best handling, just the best combination of both, IMO.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Are you a man? Didn't you say earlier that you weren't a 'sporty' driver? Had never floored the gas pedal? Etc....
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    flooring the gas pedal makes you a man? by that standard, my daughter and i ought to have gender changing operations. ;)
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    That's right, a 90 lb. girl can become a giant monster on the road.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Folks can knock the Taurus/Sable but for those who do thier homework they will see these are actually very good cars.. :surprise:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Pick 4 sedans you can see yourself in and test drive!

    By the way, I am a Fusion owner and love this car.. And as some keep bringing up the IIHS crash test.. Acceptable does NOT mean death trap. And, read about how many vehicles score "Good" and for what areas. Test drive! its free.. :shades:
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Are you a man? Didn't you say earlier that you weren't a 'sporty' driver? Had never floored the gas pedal? Etc....

    Ah, I see. Your idea of sporty driving is speed; fair enough. It may surprise you, but cars are more than engines and wheels.

    I prefer zipping down a two-lane, curvy road (my favorite is a back route to my grandmother's river home, curvy, twisty, and light traffic), and enjoying the excellent handling dynamics my car has to offer (relative to most of its competitors). I have no desire to quarter-mile drag race. Those type of urges left me, about the time I went into my senior year of high school.

    And yes, I'm every bit a man for having not floored my new car.

    (I have floored my old car numerous times, mainly when I was 16 and stupid and felt that it would be fun to merge at 75 MPH - it was 130 horsepower, so not exactly a race-car).

    Leave your gender questions, sarcastic or not, elsewhere. It's a little chlidish.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Acceptable does NOT mean death trap

    You are absolutely right, acceptable means what it says, "ACCEPTABLE." You can do better, but it's not "unsafe." It just means there are safer choices out there in that kind of crash.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I agree, 'Acceptable' does not mean death trap. However, when the majority of new designs score 'Good', it is too much to ask? Moreover, it seems that in the IIHS side test, more and more vehicles are acheiving 'Good' overall ratings, but it is still rare-ish for vehicles to score 'Good' in Structure... but the best in class... Legacy, Camry, Passat, Galant.... do.

    ~alpha
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I'm not knocking the Taurus/Sable at all. It's just terribly unfortunate that the original owner of a 2006 Taurus feels he needs to ask less than $9K for the car. I think they're a heck of a value for a family car, especially for cost of repair compared to other cars. It's going to make someone a very decent car - you could do much worse for more money, either new or used.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    a 'good' rating is a good thing. it is a specific test done under controlled conditions. the real world in rarely an exact match.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Just because its a tremendous value doesn't mean its a good car dynamically speaking. I got so tired of getting Vulcan Taurus models from Hertz/Avis (I pretty much get a rental per week) that my profile actually states NO TAURUS. Slow, rubbery steering, sloppy shifting, uncontrolled body motions in ride or cornering, spirited for a 4 - but then you realize its a V6 - with V6 fuel consumption. Sure, it will be reliable as gravity, and cheap, but its not a GOOD car by 2006/7 standards. Which is why it passed on to the grand dealership in the sky on October 27, 2006.

    ~alpha
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Sure, it will be reliable as gravity, and cheap, but its not a GOOD car by 2006/7 standards.

    Yeah, it was a decent car by 2000 standards though; it just never got an update (other than a slightly revised nose and new taillamps).
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    Yea - I got a quick V6. Wanted one for years. So I bought it. I guess I'm a big child too, but Acura made me do it!
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    The Accord is overpriced for what you get. Consider that the Accord VP, which is essentially the basic nuts and bolts of the entire line - just without the bling or features, is $16-$17K out the door via Cars Direct(and their prices aren't as good as you could haggle). 25K+ is silly. It's still a pretty basic car with thin sheetmetal, flimsy bumpers, and so on. The most plush econobox you've ever driven, but still - not close to something lika an A4 or C230 for a tiny bit more money.

    I'd recommend a 1-2 year old GM. Not even 20K and has all the goodies, plenty of power, and so on. I'm sure you can find something you like - I was impressed with the Cadillac CTS with the 3.6L engine. 18K asking price at the local dealer. Somehow it struck me as oh... 200% more car than a new Sentra. :)

    Oh - check this out - it looks very masculine to me:
    http://www.buick.com/images/gmbp/11004/vehicle/2006/med/298_722J.jpg

    Big, black, and nice chrome wheels.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    real men at least rent a go-kart if they want prove how good a driver they are. :P
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    not close to something lika an A4 or C230 for a tiny bit more money.

    A "tiny bit" more money isn't $6,000, IMO.

    That is also a compact, and not gonna fit a growing family as well, or be "economy" minded (I'm assuming you are replying to the message of the buyer from post 8854).

    Over $30k for a compact (assuming you can find a base model, no options A4) is steep for that "economy" buyer.

    That small of a back seat is gonna be tough to get a car-seat in and out of also, and their websites say they require "Premium, 91 Octane." Doesn't meet many of the requirements for carchase.

    To equip the Mercedes with things like a 6CD changer, Leather, heated seats, a sunroof, and an automatic, like the Accord EX-V6 ($25k or less), the vehicle would cost over $37k. 201 hp, or 43 hp less than Accord.

    The Audi? Expect to pay $475-$750 for paint colors other than red, white, or black!

    Equipped similarly to Accord (except with a manual-passenger seat vs. power in Accord), and a 4-cylinder engine(200 hp) vs. a V6 (244 hp in Accord), the small Audi is over $32k.

    Need I mention the latest reliability reports on VW (which owns Audi and shares engines with them) or Mercedes-Benz? The outlook for these german near-luxury compacts isn't good when compared to the Accord in if you are shopping for a car for $25k.
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    Sure, it's small, but the point is still there. It's not worth 25K, and it's not built like sometihng in that price range(though Honda and Toyota are fantastic at hiding the bling in trim levels, it's still a basic car)

    Chrysler, for instance - you get more for your money with several of their cars, and GM - well, GM practically gives their factory certified 1-3 year old cars away.

    Chrysler and GM also have 0% finiancing. This is likely what will push me to make a decision, because I can get 0% for 60 months on a Wrangler Unlimited. 22K and vastly improved over the older models. And four doors. And 4*4. And it doesn't handle like a box. With 3-4K down to cover tax and such, that's 20K financed for 60 months, or ~$330 a month.

    Toyota and Honda - pay a premium and get no incentives. That 0% will save most people 3-5K over the life of the loan AND make it at least a year quicker that they get right side up on the loan.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    I'm not disagreeing with you, you do pay a premium to drive a new Honda, but those who do it know what they are paying for. We've had two Chryslers, and would never go back to them because of their pitiful quality and bad local dealer network.

    If their quality has improved, then they are offering great deals on a lot of cars.

    I don't think buying German is the way to go if you want to keep your car on the road (and out of the shop) a lot. Sure, Honda may be more boring than Audi (and the A4 Cabriolet I drove last year didn't blow me away) but it's awfully reliable, which weighs more on some people than a marginally better driving experience.

    Different strokes for different folks, as the saying goes. Nobody is wrong.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    You might check out the Jetta. The back seat is not the roomiest around, but I think it meets your other criteria.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    It would certainly be a safe choice, but reliability issues still concern me (and it's not too economical at 22/30 MPG for 150 hp). A solid (structurally) car for sure, though.
  • meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    Whoa buddy !

    Hate the imports do ya? Ever try to sell or trade a 3 year old GM car? I have. Took a bath, but it was worth it just to get out of the thing. Bought a Honda Accord, no money down, sold it 3 years later for what I owed on it even with a 6 year loan financing it.

    And the Honda Accord was all-around much better made. And more fun to drive.

    Yea sure. GM, Chrysler, & Ford are OK. But when Honda and Toyota give you so much more for not so much more money, is it any wonder people want them vs. the domestics?
  • plektoplekto Member Posts: 3,738
    I don't hate imports. I love Mazda, for instance. It's just that Honda and Toyota are turning into Audi and Mercedes in their attitude. The A4? It's nice, but it's essentially a Passat. Paying for status or because the maker has an inflated ego - it's just not right when we're talking about basic transportation. Why should I pay more for something that's Honda's most average non-luxury car?

    The GM - I've always said that you buy one a year or two old. As if 20-30K makes any difference these days in reliablity. But what a price difference.

    Chrysler isn't any more reliable than Ford, to be sure, but the Wrangler is an exception. If you don't punish it off-road, it lasts quite well. Good depreciation as well, especially for the Unlimited, which is harder to find and honestly, a much better vehicle for everything but rock-crawling.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    "I don't hate imports. I love Mazda, for instance. It's just that Honda and Toyota are turning into Audi and Mercedes in their attitude"

    I have no problems with that. They are also turning out nice cars. As far as reasonably priced family sedans, Accord and Camry are it. Can't think of one GM or Ford product I would buy, possibly with the exception of some the bigger SUVs. Not really impressed with Hyundai products I think the quality is a cut below Honda and Toyota, but then you pay less so that's fair.

    As far as paying the price, your premium is my base-line. Basic transportation is the Accent, it doesn't get any more basic than that. Everything else is a luxury.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    Mazdas along with Toyotas, Hondas, Nissans, and Hyundai are NOT imports. Things like the Fusion, those would be the imports. Read the window stickers.
    and before you decide what is or isn't worth the price, compare what you pay for it vs. whatever you can get back for it over the period of time and use you get out of it! The results may surprise you.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    I'm certainly not advocating a Taurus, as the design is dated and the Vulcan V6 is technologically-challenged, but for many people - not me, and most on this forum - it meets their transportation requirements and will be reliable and less costly to repair than many other midsize sedans. Sure, it has very poor resale value, but for those who keep their cars longer than a decade, that's a rather moot point.

    I think many of us tend to lose our objectivity when we either own or prefer to own a Honda, Toyota, et. al. Down the road many thousands of miles, check out the cost of replacement of relatively minor parts, such as a water pump, starter, alternator, etc., for many Asian or European cars and compare that to the cost for a Taurus. Heck, you can buy these items for the Taurus at many farm supply and discount houses throughout the Midwest at very reasonable prices. Big difference . . . and, for many conservative people in this country, this is important.
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Wow - Toyota, Honda and Hyundai BELOW AVERAGE? Ford, Mercury, Volvo, Saturn, Chevy, Buick all ABOVE AVERAGE? Jaguar #1, Lincoln #3?

    I can't wait for the spin on this one. Please note this is Sales Satisfaction, not quality.

    image
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    No sspin...old news and it's each's Achilles heel. It's the one thing each wants to improve more than anything else.

    Essentially buyers flock to these products despite the lack of satisfaction with the sales Process. There is a disconnect here which is probably volume-related.

    Note that from Infiniti on up to Jag, all these brands are either niche and/or luxury marques. The bulk of the market is just above or just below the mean.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    The buying public must be brainwashed. They shell out good money for overpriced, unreliable products. Where the sales process is below satisfaction as well.

    Why can't I devise a money making formula like that.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    This report basically indicates the same thing every year, though Lexus used to fare better; at the top, not *just* Top 5. I'm surprised at how low Acura scores relative to the luxury makes, and note that while Toyota did a bit better, Scion took a dive.

    Finally, Poor Mitsubishi. That car company has just about NOTHING going for it save the Evo, which isn't the hot item it once was (until the redo).

    ~alpha
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    It's interesting to note that Honda's score was only 2 points lower than last year when they were above average and Lexus is only 1 point lower. What is happening is the other makes are getting better - fast.

    Honda and Toyota used to be able to get away with snobby salespeople, MSRP and ADP because they had superior products. With the competition closing the gap they may not be able to get away with that for much longer.
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    The J.D. Power Sales Satisfaction Index is a statistical survey to determine buyers' satisfaction with the overall "sales process" after buying the new vehicle. It has little to do with their long-term satisfaction with the product. This is more a reflection on the respective dealers. Marketing types at any corporation will mold these statistics and the myriad of surveys to position their product in the best possible light.

    Remember, what Benjamin Disraeli said years ago: "There are three types of lies - lies, damn lies, and statistics."
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    Spin, baby, spin.

    If you have a bad experience at the dealership buying a new vehicle don't you think you'll be less likely to buy another one than if you had a great experience?
  • w9cww9cw Member Posts: 888
    akirby - nobody is spinning anything! A simple answer to your question - no, I would just go to another dealership that sells the same car. As an ex-car salesperson, there are bad dealerships and there are good ones, and this is mutually exclusive with the brand of car sold. The absolute best dealership sales experience I ever had was when I recently bought a new Hyundai, and this was after 40 years of new car buying experiences with the following brands (in order of purchase): Triumph, MG, Simca, Jaguar, Porsche, Mercedes-Benz, Volvo, Ford, SAAB, Chevy, Oldsmobile, Buick, BMW, Nissan, Honda, Toyota, and now Hyundai. But, there are bad Hyundai dealers too!

    I agree that a bad sales experience with a specific dealer may sour a person on a car, but there are tons of dealers around that would love to sell you another one!
This discussion has been closed.