Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Question:
Can I get FWD with a 4 banger for around $20K with the G?
Answer:
NO.
Case closed...NEXT!
Entry Lux Sedan: G, IS, 3er, C-class, CTS...
***
And what happens when you can buy a G35 for the price of a Camry V6?
The problem is that you're right - it's not Apples to Apples. It's unfair to compare the two, yet THEY COST THE SAME. Oops. If I could find good Orowheat bread for $1.50 a loaf - I'm not buying white bread for my sandwiches. The "apples to apples" is nonsense in cars - a total straw-man in fact. Yet I hear it all the time.
All that matters with cars is price. The bottom line. And if I can get a entry luxury car for the price of a normal Camry, I'd be a fool not to. Doubly so if it's not a GM or Ford.
****
Question:
Can I get FWD with a 4 banger for around $20K with the G?
****
And 90% of people would point out that if you are comparing a 4 cylinder Camry, it's an even more rude comparison. At $20K, there are dozens of cars that pound on the 4 cylinder Camry and give it stiff competition.
I have R&D, MT, and C&D from about 1987 on, so if you provide the reference it shouldn't be a problem.
As a chronic car buyer, however, I would never purchase a new one. The depreciation is horrific.
If I was purchasing to keep for 10 years, however, I would definitely pick it over my Accord. Since I leased, the Accord was far cheaper.
'11 GMC Sierra 1500; '98 Alfa 156 2.0TS; '08 Maser QP; '67 Coronet R/T; '13 Fiat 500c; '20 S90 T6; '22 MB Sprinter 2500 4x4 diesel; '97 Suzuki R Wagon; '96 Opel Astra; '11 Mini Cooper S
If that is what is important (as opposed to vehicle quality, reliability, resale values etc)
sure will limit you selection to cars that nobody else wants, won't it!
Buying a diamond at a jewelry store just because it is 80% off will likely get you nothing more than a cheaper diamond that is worth precisely what you paid for it, now and later...
Camry XLE V6 MSRP (stripped down, no option): $27,820
G35 based MSRP (stripped down, no option): $32,150
If you call that same priced then I have nothing to add...
BTW, good luck on finding a stripped down G35 anywhere on the lot.
At $20K, there are dozens of cars that pound on the 4 cylinder Camry and give it stiff competition.
stiff competition in what? Handling? Acceleration? Don't you get it, buyers in this segment aren't looking for that, especially the 4-banger buyers. What they want and good reliability, roominess, adequate power, reasonable price and total refinement. Guess what, they got all that in the Toyota Camry and Honda Accord.
Here it is again.
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB60INC081A0&restor- - - e=false
$27,880 inlcuding delivery($27,180 otherwise)
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB70TOC021G0&restor- - - e=false
$27,295 including delivery($26,675 otherwise)
Of course, it jumps to $28,095 with options to match the G35.
Gosh - guess what? Real-world prices put the G35 at virtually the same price as the Camre XLE V6. Also, Good luck finding a stripped-down XLE V6 on the lot as well.
Got some news for ya. The G has just been re-designed. Check the www.infiniti.com for the all-new 2007 G35 sedan. Also, good luck on getting rebates, programs or incentives on those new G as they are selling like hotcakes.
The reason why the discount is so huge on the old 06' G35 is because the dealers are trying to get rid of them in order to make room for the all-new 07' model.
Like I said, please so some research (googling) before posting some non-sense.
Apples to apples here, guys...
why does the Accord come close - it is (and pretty much always has been) a superior car despite a 4 year old design.
If I want space, why not get something a little bit bigger? If I want luxury, why not get a real luxury car?
That link was Cars Direct. I could buy one today for that price.(I don't need to "google" anything - I choose this as it's quick and easy and verifiable in-stock pricing.)
P.S. You'll note that they don't have 2006 C230s in stock - all sold out. So in a few weeks, those G35s might also be gone. But today they are there and ready to purchase. For under $28K.
"Why do they need rebates and programs when they are selling like hotcakes..."
I totally agree! Accords and Camrys typically don't need incentives because they sell so well. One can always subjectively argue whether they deserve their consistently high sales figures (at their given prices), but you cannot argue their sales success. Two key factors I consider are their reputation for excellent reliability, and their very strong resale values. The lack of incentives are not a deal-breaker as far as Honda and Toyota corporate are concerned!
"...please do NOT compare apples to oranges..."
One man's "apples to oranges" comparison is another man's "Red Apple to Granny Smith Apple" comparison. OK, maybe that's a bad example... I'm just saying that I appreciate the occasional insight into other automobiles that might be a consideration (i.e., a 4-door sedan with a street price in close proximity to some of the sedans within this discussion thread). An S60 2.5T is a very solid sedan with outstanding seats, a beautiful higher-end interior, and a reliability record that has improved in recent years. I don't know if it is still true, but Volvo included free scheduled maintenance for the initial 30K miles in recent years. Because the S60 is an older platform, I'm not too surprised there are big incentives that place it in the same price range as an Accord EX V6. If that's the case, I appreciate plekto pointing this out to us -- just as long as we keep the detailed discussions on topic.
"Not to mention that one is RWD and the others are FWD."
Does that really matter for this discussion topic? This topic addresses AWD vehicles, and so why exclude RWD? If given a choice, with all other things being equal, I would choose RWD over FWD.
"... the majority (70%?) of the mid-size sedan buyers opt for the 4 banger."
I might argue more than 70% of the general public will purchase the 4-cylinder instead of the 6-cylinder versions, but I don't consider people who take the time to read and contribute to these forums to be an even representation of the general public. I tend to believe our distribution is a little higher on the enthusiasm scale. Therefore, I wouldn't be surprised if Town Hall readers/contributors have a 50/50 distribution, or perhaps a larger V6 distribution?
Obviously this is true because both the Camry and Accord will sell more units this year than any other 'more competitive' brands.
Here a news flash... the US market is HUGE. In it are lots of people with lots of money who don't necessarily even want the least expensive vehicle money can buy. If this were true Hyundai would be sold out and they'd have a 2 year waiting list....and no fleet sales.
Another news flash... when a buyer of an Accord or Camry does trade in often the net difference is not as much as you might expect. 5 y.o. paid off Accord EX 4c sold on the retail market will bring about $13000. Using this as the down on a new Accord means that the new 2007 EX Accord 4c vehicle is $10000 or less. Yes getting into a Hyundai will only cost $5000 for example, but if the buyer is happy with Honda or Toyota then the job is to keep the buyers 'at home'.
Another news flash... Honda and Toyota track this type of data and know who's buying what, with which trade-in, if any, with how much down, with how much financed, if any, and the current retail/auction values of their 3-4-5-6 y.o. vehicles. The progression of the income levels of the US market also has a sigificant influence on where the vehicles be will priced.
I would choose to re-word your statement as this: "If I can get an entry luxury car for the price of a normal Camry, I'd be a fool not to research and consider it." After researching this thoroughly, some might still choose the Camry.
As I'm sure you know, there is much more to the final equation besides luxury and performance considerations:
- reliability
- maintenance costs
- repair/parts costs
- resale value
- insurance costs
- practicality
- fuel economy
Insurance costs, maintenance costs, and fuel economy work against the G35. Resale, repair/parts costs, and practicality (rear legroom) work against the S60. Reliability, maint costs, and repair/parts costs work against the C230. etc...
This is false. It's part of your misunderstanding of the US buying public.
Price is actually 5th or 6th on the list of reasons why people buy one vehicle or another.
If it were the primary reason then as I mentioned before every single buyer in the US would be lined up outside the doors of the local Hyundai dealer. Hyundai's are by far the most bang for the buck. But they aren't are they?
Even more so if price was so important then everyone would be buying 3 y.o. used vehicles.. or 5 y.o. used vehicles and new vehicles would sit forever on the lots.
There is a huge misunderstanding here of what drives people to buy.
A few considerations you get with the Volvo:
- great safety
- handling
- high-speed driveability
- performance in snow(winter mode, traction control/etc)
- bling factor. Hey - it's a VERY nice car inside. That's worth something, IMO.
- wagon is available for a small increase in price
- stickshift is available
Resale is moot as most peope keep Volvos at least 8-10 years, just like they tend to keep Lexus and Mercedes.
I'm a big fan of Volvos myself, but they are usually too expensive to consider. But this is silly pricing like I've never seen before on the Saabs and Volvos.
BTW, the S60 though it may not be built in Sweden anymore(not sure on this - think it's not), was still designed by Volvo engineers before Ford got rid of them. Saab is the same - the current 9-5 is the last European design left, so get one before they change/ruin it like they are doing with the 9-3.
Agreed. If price is the number 1 and primary concern then the
Sonata will be outselling the Camry.
Sonata will be outselling the Accord.
TL will be outselling the 3er.
G35 will be outselling the 3er.
As we all know, the real world does not function that way.
I can get a brand new G35 for under $25,000? That's awesome...
Accord EX V6, $24,607 after all dealer fees as seen in Accord prices paid forum
You've gotta be kidding me right?
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB60NIC041D0&restor- e=false
Even a top-trim Altima is less money and shold be considered.
Or this - lol - to ultimate in dealer insanity.
http://www.carsdirect.com/build/options?zipcode=91020&acode=USB60MEC021A0&restor- e=false
Something's just not right with Toyota's pricing.(or Ford's in this case - lol)
I bet this gets more than a few readers here thinking about the Mercury.
Conversely, the Volvo 240 I got to replace it was a dream. Reliable, smooh, great 5-speed gearbox, and a no electrical problems.
So, for $18,000 I can have a brand new 10 year old car (Grand Marquis). This is a midsize sedan HOW?
Exactly, thank god that you know this board is the mid-size board. Then can I ask you a question...
How is the G35 midsize? :confuse:
Just pointing out how silly the year-end deals are, and how if you can buy it new, it's just as valid to discuss a 2006 versus a 2007 model(and a LOT of people buy year-old models new because of the savings as well)
07' Honda Civic: 34.6 in.
06' Infiniti G35: 33.6 in.
07' Toyota Camry: 38.3 in.
link title
some qoutes (all in itallics):
Hyundai’s scrimping showed up in a major way on one editor’s long road trip from Detroit to Syracuse, New York, then to Saratoga Springs and back to Detroit. Interior shortcomings, road noise, and steering and chassis inadequacies that short hops failed to reveal were more than evident on the longer trip.
“The ride is adequate, but there are elements of under-controlled body motion that at first seem inconsequential but contribute to that sense of road burn at the end of a long day at the wheel,” noted the staffer. And steering through long mountainous sweepers required constant steering adjustments.
“It doesn’t take a set and stay on track,” the editor complained.
Finally, quietness tends to disappear on longer jaunts, where road roar and suspension bump-thumping pervade the cabin.
All that said, aside from normal maintenance and a free software upgrade to quicken transmission downshift response, our Sonata seems near bulletproof.
personally, I when I had a sonata for a couple days, I didn't find the road noise in the cabin all that annoying, but did find the steering a bit vague. but maybe it was just the suspension being a touch too soft so that in turns, body lean was a bit pronounced and bumps under load seemed to unsettle the car a bit more than I would have liked. although autoweek had a lot of bad things to say about the passenger seat, I found myself needing to turn on cruise control to give my right hamstring a rest from the ache from the seat. still a very good car, but I'd have to agree with the posters here who prefer the accord for having handling that's better sorted out, class leading seats for my body, and an interior that is more refined (JK: sorry couldn't help myself - add imo :P ).
still some very smart touches in the car, and overall, I was very impressed by the engine power. braking was great and the exterior was unoffesively attractive. fit and finish was excellent also. I found that driving in the city was relaxed and pretty effortless with great visibility. Definitely a car worth considering, especially when you keep in mind the upfront cost advantages and huge warranty. my 2 cents.
You've gotta be kidding me right?
Depending on which vehicles are factored in it could be this high. With all the GM/F/DC vehicles in the mix, nearly all of which are V6's, and the 25% or so of T/H/N/H/M/M/S which are V6's the total could be as much as 60-70%.
The growth, til now, has certainly been in the 4c since they were less costly and far more efficient than the V6's. However captain2 may have noted a new trend with the V6's that are almost as fuel efficient as the 4c's. The V6's though are still about $2000 more expensive than the 4c in the same model.
http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=106434/pageNumber=1?s- ynpartner=edmunds&pageurl=www.edmunds.com/reviews/comparison/articles/106434/art- icle.html
where the Sonata finished 1st, the Accord 2nd, and the Camry 3rd (granted, it was the 06 Camry)
"Maybe we should talk about the exterior "refinement" of the mazda6, since using that word seems to be a way to attempt to convert subjective style preferences into something that sounds objective"
I like how you phrased that...well said.
~alpha
Overall, however, thought it was a creditable car with the V6 although I did not like the interior much at all - too cheap looking. But, comfortable and capable yes, and likely a good buy especially if you plan on keeping it awhile.
Why would they?
Would you mind sharing where your data comes from? I think you are right about 70/30, but I think the data is backwards. Just by looking at Accords on the road, I see a lot more single-exhaust (4-cyl)Accords than dual-exhaust models (V6).
It means nothing? Really?
I hate to tell ya, but you can calculate your own mileage much more precisely by doing simple arithmetic.
Miles Driven since last fillup/Gallons pumped
Will give you your mileage. Most MPG meters I've seen (including a recent ride in a 2004 Lexus GX470) have been off by a MPG or two versus the actual mileage. I do remember the GX470 showing 17.0 MPG, when we filled up and topped off, the math equaled 15.7 MPG.
This is an anomaly in car pricing. If I wanted a new '07 Camry, I would not be looking at a G35 as a replacement. If I wanted a G35 and didn't care about the 2007 the 2006 might make sense. RWD vs FWD, more expensive to maintain, drinks gas vs sips gas. Want the AWD version? That'll cost you about $2,000 more. They are not in the same class and most rational people don't seriously view them as competitors in the same space. I'm sure there are some people who shop on price, but I would rather have a new redesigned Camry than a G35 model that is a few model years old for the same price.
Maybe because, as the folks at Edmunds.com found, they can get more car for the money with a Hyundai than a CamCord, e.g. a 234 hp V6, ABS, ESC, traction control, active head restraints, and alloys vs. an I4 with around 160 hp, plastic wheel covers, and ABS but no ESC or traction control.
I think he means, what is special about the Hyundai other than price, or, restated, if Hyundai cost the same as a CamCord, why would someone pick Hyundai over those two?
I see your point about similar prices getting vastly different equipment levels.
It could be estimated pretty closely I think
So obviously, if the Sonata was priced the same as the Accord, I definitely wouldn't have bought it.
As the Toyota sales guy on this board has been saying (spyder?) not every car buying decision is based on the lowest price. If I'm dropping $20K+ on a car, I want to feel like I'm not gonna regret my decision for the next 5 years. Accords deliver that feeling.
I think most people choose the 4cyl because of the purchase price difference, more than fuel economy difference.