Did you recently take on (or consider) a loan of 84 months or longer on a car purchase?
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
A reporter would like to speak with you about your experience; please reach out to PR@Edmunds.com by 7/22 for details.
Options
Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
This discussion has been closed.
Comments
Implementations of CVVT:
BMW: Double VANOS.
Honda: Variable valve Timing and lift Electronic Control VTEC.
Nissan: Continuous Variable Valve Timing Control System (CVTCS).
Toyota: Variable Valve Timing with intelligence (VVT-i), Variable Valve Timing with Lift and Intelligence (VVTL-i).
Darn it, why can't I just ignore this foolish post... :sick:
Check out the chart halfway down the page:
http://www.toyota.co.jp/en/tech/environment/powertrain/engine/index.html
You may need to post your revised argument once again
~alpha
Btw, the 3.6VVT engine can also be had in the Buick La Crosse CXS. It develops almost all of its torque very quickly - sometihng like 80% of maximum at ~1600rpm. For the first time, there's no "40mph WOT lag" that you suffer with the other GM V6 engines.
That is - you are going 35-40mph and you need to get onto a freeway onramp or make a quick change in speed to pass someone or avoid something. The 3.8L engine whines about 7-800rpm higher for a second, does essentially NOTHING AT ALL, then gives up and downshifts hard into second gear.
There's just nothing at ALL in the 1500-2500rpm range. You can blip the pedal 25% while driving around town and nothing happens at all.
The 3.6... Totally different story. VVT to the rescue. Too bad GM isn't tossing all of the 3.4/3.5/3.8/etc engines and replacing it with this one instead. It would help sales greatly.
I posted that link because that particular poster apparently really doesn't know how technologically similar the 2GR is to those great engines that do go into BMWs.
never thought I'd agree with you on something. I would guess the result of limited production capacity and existing factories with existing UAW labor contracts - and finally a decided lack of cash!
True. I believe a few sport-oriented Japan-market-only Toyota models also feature 2GR-FSE.
As far as I know, the new Camry in China and Taiwan also features the 2GR-FE engine.
Little defensive?
As one of the leaders of the Hyundai pack you're always touting the prices of their cars, and many others are saying that's the only way they'd buy 'em - if they're priced lower than CamCords.
Don't think it's too confrontational to ask a Hyundai officer why they'll abandon their price - price - price mantra and go buy a BMW. Seems like a reasonable query. Especially since I think most posters here don't put price - price -price first when buying a car in this segment.
1. The lifters: BMWs acronym is VANOS for timing adjustment of the lifters.
2. The intake and outflow manifolds. BMW has continuous variance on both sides.
All in all, the kind of things that can be done - it does take money to make money - are you listening 'Detroit'?
The thing that is funny is the 330 gets better mileage than the 325.
How much do I really need that new car smell (not much since I haven't had a new car yet :P )?
I thought the trucks had a V6 while cars like the supra had an inline 6, along with the old Land Cruisers and stuff.
This is a constant refrain in your posts. Again, why is your value heirarchy the only correct one?
What if the price doesn't matter at all or not that much? What if the buyer just wants what he/she wants? How is that showing a lack of financial repsponsibility?
The other three items are also just your personal opinions, so neither you nor the poster are wrong or right?
4Runners
Tacomas V6
Tundras V6
FJ's
It was the basis for the new 3.5L that first went into the Avalon, then RAV, then Camry, Sienna, next Highlander as well as most Lexus'
In fact Toyota now has one basic V6 throughout its product line in NA. Not only is this ultra efficient from a production pov but in developing the engine Bodine Aluminum literally send $Billions directly to the bottom line.
Bloomberg-Toyota_Bodine
Excerpt:
The new engine technology is now in use not only at Bodine, which Toyota bought in 1990, but also at foundries in Japan and China. Partly as a result, the cost of building an engine for the redesigned Camry that was scheduled to go on sale in March will be about $1,000, half the cost of an engine for the previous generation of Camrys, says Gary Convis, executive vice president for North American manufacturing.
Let's say all of the cars (Camcordnata) were from the same make, and optioned alike, cost the same, which cars would get most sales?
To me, the Sonata is 90% of the car the Accord is, at 75% of the price, which is a great deal. It fell short on some interior design aspects, it's lack of a 5-speed automatic in the 4-cylinder model, and didn't impress me in interior quality. It drove fine, but wasn't a standout. Some people are willing to pay that extra 25% to get that extra 10% of quality/design.
Do I make any sense NOW? I'm just talking about the cars; not the names of the cars, or the brand cachet.
The Supra is making a comeback! supposedly as an 08 model, this time with a 350-400 hp version of the 2GR, RWD - of course. IMO that straight 6 in the Supra in the 90's was the last 'performance' engine Toyota made until the 2GR.
captain2
Exactly like saying my Timex is 90% of the watch a Rolex is at 99.99% of the price.
Would suggest to you though, that is likely never going to be a good fiscal decision to buy any car new regardless of what it is.
Had a 5 series Beemer a few years back. Didn't like it that much because it rode harshly, seats were really firm to the point of being uncomfortable, and it just seemed to be generally unworthy of its high price tag. Wouldn't buy another one, but not just for those reasons. Read on.
Spent a couple of years in France after that, and learned what I think is the truth about BMW, Mercedes, Audi, and their ilk--all high end, "prestige" autos in our hemisphere.
They are in many ways no better or worse than any other make, but in general, command a higher price--again, mainly in our hemisphere. There is an "image" factor for those makes that people seem to be very willing to pay high prices for here.
However, in Europe, prices for those makes are lower--a fair bit lower, I might add. Most everybody can afford one, and they are much more common in everyday life than here.
I found out why when we tried to buy a MB and bring it back when we returned to North America. I was told if I wanted to buy one there, I had to buy it thru a North American dealer, even though I would take delivery of it in Europe.
I also learned that the North American dealer networks for those makes has been granted that ruling because they want to protect their market pricing points---basically because the difference between prices in Europe and North America is entirely markup--significant markup BTW!
So what we're paying for when we buy "Prestige" automobiles is basically markup--far in excess of value added content.
The marketing for those makes feeds on our North American insatiable need for for "status", and marketing simply capitalizes on it.
At the end of the day, it showed me that anyone can get every bit as good a car at a much lower price/value level than those so called "prestige" automobiles. Paying totally ridiculous prices for for "status" is silly in my book!
Your best value is right smack in the middle of what this particular discussion is all about--Mid Size Sedans.
you would think so wouldn't you - BMWs require that all rotors (unlike most other cars they wear) be replaced along with the pads, the rotors alone if I remember right were $150 each, and he did get nailed for a couple of probably unnecessary caliper rebuilds - but, viola a 'routine' $1200.00 brake job. And you are absolutely right, there is a reason why the service depts. is where the dealers make all their money! Personally, I've done all my own brake work ever since I was a kid along with several other things - but it is getting to a point with all this electronic sophistication etc. that I may be forced to let my cars into the grimey paws of one of those 'good' mechanics you mention
The dealer is the most expensive option, a good independent would have charged "normal" rates for this. I repeat after warranty I find a good independent that can service my car. I paid over $3,000 in repair bills within 6 months for a Ford product I owned. I thought I was paying Mercedes prices. That's when I realized I needed a good independent and I probably didn't want a Ford again.
Nice sweeping generalization. Comparing France to America in this area is silly. Totally different set of circumstances. How many Suburbans do you see in France? How about Tahoes? Hummers? I spent 2 years in Munich. 'Most everybody' cannot afford a BMW.
BMWs offer a lot for what you pay. Not everybody is like your generalization and buys one for prestige.
sometimes it is reminder to slow down.
There are great engine sounds, and bad engine noises. I prefer the sound of a great engine.
sometimes it is reminder to slow down.
Wow. Interesting.
I'm completely the opposite. I hear a high compression, 260hp V6 engine fire up, and I want to get up and go!
Replies to this message:"
I have to call fib on this one, since its below even what the dealer gets charged by Honda..
The prices are around $23k, that doesn't mean OTD for $23,000.
Invoice is approx $24,500 on an EX V6. Subtract $1,000 for dealer cash and you have $23,500. The dealer has a 3% holdback in most cases, leaving dealer cost at $22,795 or so, meaning that they CAN make profit on a $23,000 Accord EX-V6 Automatic.
Let's not call a fib on someone until we have done a little research please. It's common courtesy.
Trying to make an Accord/Camry less expensive is like trying to get oil from a waterspout! I think your hurting your own reputation in trying to make Accords/Camrys priced like Fusions/Sonata/Altima.. whichever. Anyone who shops knows Honda/Toyota = pricey$$.. :shades:
1). Accord
2). Sonata
3). Camry
All were 4-cylinder automatics, and comparable trim lines: Accord LX, Sonata GLS, and Camry LE. Reasons for the ranking are as follows:
Accord - great engine with excellent fuel economy, decent and controlled ride and excellent handling, some road noise and a surprising amount of wind noise, especially from front door seals, and excellent build quality;
Sonata - smooth balance-shaft engine with acceptable fuel economy, smooth ride and acceptable handling, most quiet on the road of all three with the least amount of wind noise, but with a little road noise with the GLS' 16" tires, excellent build quality, but interior materials a step below either the Honda or Toyota;
Camry - smooth engine and excellent fuel economy, driveability and cruise control quirks, front dash squeaks and rattles, smooth ride and decent handling, very little road noise, but some wind noise from driver's door with each sample driven, and excellent interior materials, but not on par with Honda's, nor with the previous generation Camrys I've driven.
Uh, right... the dealer ripped the standard leather seats out and patched the hole where the sunroof was. :confuse:
However, I find a $23k Accord EX V6 automatic hard to believe also, unless it's a once-in-a-blue-moon-I-hit-the-dealer-at-exactly-the-right-time-and-they-needed- to-sell-one-more-car-at-month-end-to-get-their-bonus kind of thing.
However, I find a $23k Accord EX V6 automatic hard to believe also, unless it's a once-in-a-blue-moon-I-hit-the-dealer-at-exactly-the-right-time-and-they-needed- to-sell-one-more-car-at-month-end-to-get-their-bonus kind of thing.
Well, with only one left on the lot (and a black one, an unpopular color in a steamy state), I'd say that it IS a once-in-a-blue moon thing also, but it doesn't mean the dealer is losing money.
Thank you at least for treating me with some apparently hard-to-come-by respect, backy. You never fail to do so. :-)
I paid $25,000 for my EX V6 (no nav, I can read a map thanks), and I would do it again tomorrow. That's what is important.
Why do you want him to place the Sonata last on his list?
I don't know if Acura = a bigger Honda in other countries in 2006 AD.
~alpha
When the Accord needed its second brake job at 86k, I was told I had to replace the rotors. Apparently for that particular Accord that requires disassembling the entire suspension since the rotors are pressed between the upright and the wheel bearing. The dealer estimate for new pads and new rotors all around was about $1000.
Naturally its a mute point I ended up doing it myself. spending about $400 for pads and rotors and installing them. My buddy at work with the E46 325 just had the dealer do his first brake job at 90k.
Service horror stories I take with a grain of salt. I am also pretty comfortable with my mechanical abilities to repair things, which keeps me out of the service bays. Most modern cars are pretty easy to work on anyway, especially with the computers involved. They really help to pinpoint the problem.
Oh, and resale does take a big hit. I would say a 3 year old $40,000 car with 58k for 18.5k is a big hit.
I guess you didn't feel sorry for me, spending $3,000 dollars on my Ford in 6 months.