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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • imidazol97imidazol97 Member Posts: 27,675
    >exterior is nowhere near controversial and I don't think it is anywhere near ugly either.

    I respect your opinion but the 4 door is ugly. The strange dash, the strange instruments and the game machine readout... The design would have been called awful if it were to have come from Ford, but because it has the halo of Honda still working, it's wonderful in some's eyes.

    2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,

  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    The Civic looks fine or even good to most people and that's not because it's a Honda since most people have said they don't like the current Accord's look and that is also a Honda.
    So, you just happen to be one of the people who don't like the Civic.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    I wouldn't buy the new Civic either, but there is nothing inherently wrong with the interior or exterior, for what the car is.

    If it had come from Ford, it would have been class leading.
  • exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    ... strange dash, the strange instruments...

    Wow, now there's a different opinion. Everybody I know that has seen my '06 Accord dash loves it. It looks high class. They are extremely easy to read, even in direct sunlight. I love the instruments.

    To each his own. Just curious, what qualifies as good instruments in your opinion?
  • mfletou1mfletou1 Member Posts: 508
    I ran across somebody shopping for new midsize cars and we were chatting. He said that he thought the Fusion was solid enough but that it didn't have stability control. I looked it up, and sure enough, its not offered!

    That's unbelieveable to me. Any discussion of safety features on a new car should start with stability control. The numbers are staggering--it dramatically reduces the chance of collision. In fact, IIHS just added it as a requirement for vehicles to win their awards:
    Stability Control
    A new requirement for 2007 is that the winning vehicles must offer electronic stability control (ESC). This addition is based on institute research indicating that ESC significantly reduces crash risk, especially the risk of fatal single-vehicle crashes, by helping drivers maintain control of their vehicles during emergency maneuvers.

    More information about the impact that ESC has is here:
    http://www.iihs.org/news/rss/pr061306.html

    Now, the Camry, the Accord and the Sonata all have it. The Hybrid Camry, in fact, has the most sophisticated and advanced system in this class--the Lexus VDIM system (other Camry's have a less advanced system that's equivalent to what Honda and Hyundai offer). Hell, my '02 Intrigue had an ESC system.

    From what I see, it looks like Ford may add this in '08. Until then, though, I wouldn't recommend buying a Fusion.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I share your concern - each Honda restyle over the last several years has either been a step sideways (Accord and Pilot freshening, Civic restyle) or a step back (CR-V). The current Accord is, at best, inoffensive. Here's my stack (exterior styling only):

    Sonata > Mazda 6 > Aura > Fusion > Altima > Camry > Passat > Accord > Legacy

    Comments?
  • louisweilouiswei Member Posts: 3,715
    Sonata > Mazda 6 > Aura > Fusion > Altima > Camry > Passat > Accord > Legacy

    Let me take a shot at the list...

    Mazda6 > Aura > Altima > Camry > Fusion = Accord > Sonata > Legacy > Passat

    :)
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    I think you got it wrong. ;)

    Mazda6 > Milan > Passat > the rest, ex. Accord > Accord
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    A good 'opinion thread'...

    Mine..

    Camry > Aura > Milan > Fusion >( Accord / Sonata / Malibu ) > Altima
  • mz6greyghostmz6greyghost Member Posts: 1,230
    *Hand raised*

    My turn! :)

    Mazda 6 > Fusion > Aura > Altima > Legacy > Passat > Sonata > Accord > Camry
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The design would have been called awful if it were to have come from Ford, but because it has the halo of Honda still working, it's wonderful in some's eyes.

    Regardless of the make, sales of the Civic are WAY up compared to the old model. Apparently more people like the vehicle than the old 2005 model. I don't think it's a "halo," but I do think people come back to vehicles and brands that have treated them well in the past. I know we certainly have.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    by helping drivers maintain control of their vehicles during emergency maneuvers.

    a common misperception about ESC/TRAC systems - they can indeed 'help' a driver maintain control but they do it by disabling systems and inhibiting vehicle responsiveness.

    Pick up a copy of the December MT - the Ford Edge tested: paraphrasing -if you try to corner with just a bit of enthusiasm, the Edge will shutdown in mid turn. Does this sound like something you want during an emergency manuever? Maybe you were trying to avoid something and the silly computer decided not to let you. Understand also that these systems must be set at some level below the car's ultimate capabilities - otherwise they wouldn't be a safety feature at all. And this would not just be the Edge or any vehicle in particular, it is getting more common as these now federally mandated (by 2010) systems become more popular.

    And I'm not saying that overall that there aren't going to folks saved from their own 'dumbfootedness' - but it will also cost a few as well.

    In any case, believe the PC governmental blog if you will and trust some idiot computer programmer to decide what you and your car are capable of doing. I, for one, see a whole line of TV lawyers waiting for those folks that will inevitably contend that they got into an accident 'but it's Toyota's fault, the car went 'dead'. Remember airbags?
  • meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    Wow - amazing. You listed the Sonata first? Ew.

    The best looking car of the bunch is obviously the Mazda6 (too bad it has a Ford engine) with the Aura a close second.

    I'll bet the 08 Accord will rise straight to the top.
  • texasestexases Member Posts: 11,107
    I find the Sonata a clean design with no major failings, something that can't be said for most of the others. What in particular do you dislike about it? Honest, just curious, don't own one. (Interesting we both like the 6&Aura)
  • akirbyakirby Member Posts: 8,062
    While I do think the real world benefits of ESC on a midsize family sedan is overhyped, the technology does work. The reason the Fusion doesn't have it is that for some strange reason it only has 3 channel ABS and ESC needs 4 channel so each wheel can be braked individually. An oversight, for sure, but if it was an option I probably wouldn't have gotten it. I didn't get it on my 00 Lincoln LS and I drove it for 6 years without incident. Now if I had a top heavy SUV or sports car that would be a different story.

    If you go around a curve too fast, you either oversteer or understeer. ESC will detect that and apply brakes to one or more wheels (for understeer it brakes the inside rear wheel and cuts power to help turn the front end). This is where it has an advantage over a human - you can't apply the brakes to just one wheel at a time. And I think it's better in 99.9999% of the cases.
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    what I see as the potential problem is how invasively the systems are set - I can guarantee you that you and I both have different abilities to control and make the correct reactions in those 'emergency' manuevers and that there are admittedly infrequent times that an aggressive approach may also be the correct one. And then, you have some poor old 90 old guy with poor eyesight and reactions that may not be able to realize that he is about to have an accident until after it happened. So, how do you think those same lawyers that wrote those jokes called owners manuals are going to have Toyota set intervention levels - for your abilities, mine, or that 90 year old? I'm afraid the answer to that will be that lower ability driver, thereby interfering with your or my ability to avoid accidents and/or taking some of the 'fun' that we might have driving in the first place.

    I did, personally, have a situation not too long ago where I managed to avoid an accident that several unfortunate folks didn't - by nailing the accelerator and throwing my non-VSC equipped car into a rather violent swerve - something I can't imagine any VSC system worth a salt would have allowed me to do. Guess that would be the .0001%?

    In any case, I think there is also some danger in many people thinking somehow they are immune from gross driving errors because somehow they think this 'neat new' safety feature is going to save them when it may or may not, and further, that a lot of this new technology is, at this point, largely untested and unproven. Time will tell.
  • explorerx4explorerx4 Member Posts: 20,723
    with vsc, i'm also concerned that manufacturers will use it to cover up basic handling deficiencies trying to rush a design to market. maybe some already have?
    i think my favorite one to watch will be the lexus self parking feature.
    2024 Ford F-150 STX, 2023 Ford Explorer ST, 91 Mustang GT vert
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    and yep this whole governmental/IIHS exercise in PC and overreaction really started with some poorly designed SUVs with crappy tires!
  • captain2captain2 Member Posts: 3,971
    remember when it was possible to easily drive a power steering equipped car after the power steering pump failed?

    The Lexus VDIM/MB Precollision will be the ones I want to watch - a step or two more invasive, they actually read what it thinks is an impending collision, disables the throttle, tightens your seatbelts, and even apply the brakes for you.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The best looking car of the bunch is obviously the Mazda6

    Big words. Remember, a "good looking" design from one person may be hated by another (I think the new Sebring is absolutely horrendous!)

    Personally, I think the Mazda 6 is pretty bland, along with Sonata, Malibu, Accord, etc... None are offensive, or break new ground in styling. They are nice cars, with conservative, classy styling.

    The Aura looks nice, for sure, challenging the Fusion as the best looking American entry into sensible cars under $30,000.

    The Passat is a beautiful car to me as well (although I would never EVER buy a VW with its reliability currently still WELL below average).

    To me, the Sonata is very nice, better than most things coming from GM or Ford for the money. I still have no regrets with the getting a 4cyl Accord for $21k when I could have gotten a V6 Sonata (at the time) for $19k. The quality difference (and handling) was well worth it in my eyes. To others, it obviously isn't however.
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    If one drives a BMW their DSC system can be completely disengaged with a quick press of the button. For the most part you do want the intervention. Take it to the track and you can shut it partially off in 2 seconds, fully off in 5 seconds. I'd be a fool to drive with it off on the streets.

    Having said that you can get by without it. It's an extra insurance policy for sure that potentially help avoid a collision by making sure the driver maintains control of the vehicle.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    If Stability Control could be fully disengaged on all vehicles (like Honda currently has, among others)?
  • moparbadmoparbad Member Posts: 3,870
    exshoman... strange dash, the strange instruments...

    Wow, now there's a different opinion. Everybody I know that has seen my '06 Accord dash loves it. It looks high class. They are extremely easy to read, even in direct sunlight. I love the instruments.

    To each his own. Just curious, what qualifies as good instruments in your opinion?


    The instruments on the Accord are well designed. The comments were not directed at the Accord.
    Current Honda Civic is the subject being discussed with the strange dash, strange instruments comment.

    Speedometer readout from leftover 1980's Timex alarm clocks and two tier dash is example of poor design IMO. Booo....hisss..to the Civic. I thought this example of digital design disaster died in the 1980s with the K-Car as manufacturers returned to traditional, simple and legible gauges. Except for the dash the Civic is very well executed.

    Hopefully Honda abandons their Civic dash experiment when the new Accord is introduced as I plan to buy a diesel Accord as long as it is as good as Honda's current Accord and Honda has not screwed up the Accord yet!
  • mm99mm99 Member Posts: 25
    When the current "animalistic" Mazda 6 design was introduced a couple years ago, I found it immediately striking. But it usually means (for me) that it will get dated very soon, and it has already. A good long-lived design usually has to grow on you - think of every time a new Mercedes or Audi was introduced and how outlandish they looked at first sight. My current list (exterior only):

    Altima 07 > Milan > Dodge Charger > Sebring 07 > Sonata > Aura > Mazda-6 > Legacy > Maxima 07 > Altima 06 > Accord 07 # Camry 07 > Fusion > Passat

    (the ones after # I find ugly. The Passat for its ugly attempt to hint at Audi from the front). Among the smaller ones, one of the new Civics looks striking to me (not sure which trim it is). BTW, today I put my money where my mouse is - got myself an Altima 07 in "precision gray" :)
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Wow, it's called opinions. Plus, styling is as subjective - that's rule #1. There is nothing wrong with listing a Korean car at the top, despite the perceived (incorrect) perceptions. I am not making a list and ranking these midsizes but had I done so, the Sonata would actually rank fairly high on my list. I agree with texases about the Sonata having a clean design, a very clean one. The 07 Sebring comes last, in my view.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    despite the perceived (incorrect) perceptions

    Wouldn't all views on every aspect of cars be "perceptions?" And can what I "perceive" really be wrong? REALLY?

    Since we are talking about it, as far as exterior styling goes (and exterior styling ONLY), here's my list.

    Passat > Aura > Legacy > Fusion > Accord > Sonata > 6 > 2007 Camry > Malibu > 2007 Altima > 2007 Sebring

    If I missed any, it's because they weren't memorable.
  • savethelandsavetheland Member Posts: 671
    I would prefer Mazda3 to anything in this segment including Civic. Honda is famous for its engines but not for suprior handling or steering. It is basically maker or applience cars with good cheaply made engines, but now Toyota is catching up. And Mazda3 has much micer exterior and interior than Civic.

    My list of non-luxury midsize cars based on exterior design alone is:

    Milan > Fusion > G6 > Aura/Accord > Sonata > Passat > Camry > Sebring/Altima/Maxima/Malibu

    I did not include Mazda6 because it is too small to be considered as a midsize car. But next generation will be based on Fusion platform what is sad because smaller cars handle better.
  • mm99mm99 Member Posts: 25
    Forgot Acura TSX, I'd say it comes right between Sonata and Aura :) Its current exterior is getting dated, but from the 08 euro-Accord concepts seen at car shows, the replacement should be striking.
  • meateatermeateater Member Posts: 123
    What's this "remember" BS. I think you need to "remember" that all of us here are stating our OPINIONS. You don't always have to temper your words with IMO etc.

    And I still say the 6 is the sharpest styled MS sedan of the bunch, and that the latest Accord is near last (and I'm a Honda lover).

    When it comes to the total package tho Accord is tops for their fantastic engineering even with a 5 year old design.
  • mm99mm99 Member Posts: 25
    Wow, the 2007 Altima and Sebring do cause the extreme opposite feelings in different people :) That's why they'll never beat the bland Accord in terms of sales. Has to be Honda's deliberate tactic, since the TSX / euro-Accord look quite inspired, so they can do it.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Just trying to keep things straight around here. A couple of posters (not you) tend to believe their opinions are fact, and those who don't agree are idiots, and are treated as such. You haven't done this, but I just figured someone like you wouldn't get that upset with a simple statement of the fact that "we may not all agree with you." It's easier making such statements to people who agree with you than those who don't, which is why I said that.

    Sorry I apparently made you upset.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    Car magazines love to complain about stability control because they like to do sporty maneuvers like "drifting" around corners and whatnot and the stability control doesn't allow that and kills their fun. It probably adds seconds to their lap times also.
    It has already been proven reduce accidents.
  • mm99mm99 Member Posts: 25
    I would prefer Mazda3 to anything in this segment including Civic

    Agree - Mazda 3 sedan looks great (not the hatchback though) and steers great, for those whose legs can fit inside.
  • mm99mm99 Member Posts: 25
    Well, here is a live example (very happy to be live, actually!) who has just totaled a car - a front tire blew up on a wet highway. Luckily for me, the highway had a median rail and there were no trailer trucks beside me at the moment. An ESC might have prevented the car spinning completely out of control. So while shopping for my replacement car, a stability control system was an absolute must for me. I do like to go fast on the highway ramp now and then, but thank you very much, I'll take stability control.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    I find it hard to say any one of these cars is the "best looking" (none are all that great). Since it is impossible for any of these cars to look like a Porsche 911, I prefer to look at the way the car drives, how the controls work, how comfortable it is, the build quality, economy, and ergonomics, and not how it looks in the driveway. If any of these cars looked great, they wouldn't have design engineers working on the next generation, before the current generation has hit the streets.
  • mm99mm99 Member Posts: 25
    No, Altima 07 looks great, Civic coupe looks great, and Porsche 911 looks ugly, like a small penis :) (A Mustang, on the other hand, looks great, especially what the Ferrari designers have done to it at one of the recent shows.) Whereas functionally, all midsize cars in the 20-30k range are pretty much the same these days.

    Designers work on the next generations because they have worked on and lived with the car for a number of years prior to release and can foresee how the general public will get bored with the current design.
  • elroy5elroy5 Member Posts: 3,735
    Porsche 911 looks ugly, like a small penis (A Mustang, on the other hand, looks great,

    This proves that style is subjective. A Mustang looks better than a Porsche. Hahahahaha. That's hilarious. :)
  • mm99mm99 Member Posts: 25
    I think a Mustang is one of those designs that grows on you, when I first saw it I hated it.
  • jaxs1jaxs1 Member Posts: 2,697
    You can get stability control on a Camry, but you are very limited in your choices.
    The option list may show it available on almost any version of the Camry, but they don't build them that way. Do the build and price for our zip code on the Toyota.com web site and you will see what option combinations are really available in your region. VSC is really only available on a few produced packages such as a fully loaded XLEV6 with every option.
    No, you can't "special order" it for a LE 4 cylinder or any other model that isn't listed in the packages for your region.

    If stability control is standard on the 2008 Accord, Toyota may respond with additional availability of VSC on the 2008 Camry, but for now, you can't have it unless you choose one of the very few pre-selected optioned packages for your region.
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Ding@! I priced the Sonata and no way can you get a loaded Sonata for $18K, try more like around $22K.. Besides, I did not prefer the styling of the Sonata, otherwise I would have bought one.... ;) I can see past those silver H's and T's.. unlike some other folks.. ;)
  • exshomanexshoman Member Posts: 109
    First, let me state that I wish my Accord had stability control. It wasn't offered on the 4 cylinder car for some reason.

    I would feel much better if my 16 year old daughter had the extra protection of stability control. She's not as expert of a driver as you. I agree that stability control can remove some of the fun of driving a sporty car, which is why I would prefer a cutoff switch for those times when you want to make an educated decision on risk/reward.

    Anyways, I thought you'd enjoy an interesting article that touched on some of what you're saying about behavior.

    The Hidden Danger of Seat Belts
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    " don't think Ford's 1 year history with the Fusion can come close to hanging with the CamCord's 20+ year legacy.
    If Ford charged for a Fusion what a CamCord costs they wouldn't sell any. Kind of like the Sonata story."

    Too bad you equate a higher price tag with quality/fit/finish/reliability. Just what Honda and Toyota want people to think. Took the bait I see.. Besides, ever look at the reliabitliy of the Taurs/Sable? Obviously not.. :surprise:
  • kdshapirokdshapiro Member Posts: 5,751
    That idea presented in that article is old news. If you ever notice how owners of Escalades' drive, they drive as if they are encased in an impervious womb of steel. Just like the article says, their perceived risk of dying in a crash is very low....

    Having said that, I'll take my chances wearing the seat belts...
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Since the Civic has entered this room.. Isn't this car supposed to be an "economy car"?? Why then does Honda want $18,999 for a Civic EX?? I know a guy who paid $19,750 and he claimed a "good deal"?? :surprise: You can't even buy a $19,000 Focus, Cobalt, Sentra, 3, or whichever in the econo realm.. All I know is every time I see one of these new Civics I know these folks got taken to the cleaners... :sick:
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    2 people don't like the styling of the Civic.. count me in..
    My opinion, the best styling in this segement goes to the Mazda 3..
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    2 people don't like the styling of the Civic.. count me in..
    My opinion, the best styling in this segement goes to the Mazda 3..
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Too bad you equate a higher price tag with quality/fit/finish/reliability. Just what Honda and Toyota want people to think. Took the bait I see.. Besides, ever look at the reliabitliy of the Taurs/Sable? Obviously not..

    If you can't tell a difference in the Fit and Finish of the Taurus/Sable and the Accord or Camry (you were comparing them, after all), then you shouldn't buy a Honda or Toyota. It WOULD be wasted money to you. For me, I see and feel many many differences in the interior of my Accord and the interior of the Fusion. Differences that would have made me unhappy with the car if I'd saved some cash on.

    For me (not everyone, just me) it was a case of spend money and drive a decent car with a V6, or spend the same cash and get a car which completely satisfied my wants for an upscale and highest-possible quality interior, and get the 4-cylinder.

    I understand not everyone would make the same choice, and that's ok.

    I think the styling remains a moot point on most of these cars.

    The Civic was a subcompact last I heard (and saw on the window sticker).
  • scape2scape2 Member Posts: 4,123
    Stability control is not all what its made out to be. Some systems actually take away your driving experience. I agree Ford should at least offer it. Should it be a make or break in a car purchase, no. The Fusion handles very, very well and is a confident handling vehicle.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    All of your friends and neighbors seem to get taken to the cleaners... ($25,888 for an EX V6 Accord is something you've told us about for months). Dad was offered an Accord EX I-4 (which stickers at $23,800 I think) for $20,505, with blue-book on his trade. He wanted the Civic though.

    My dad bought a Civic EX yesterday (traded his 2005 Accord - wanted something different since he's had Accords and 1 CR-V since 2000). If you care to venture to the prices paid forum, You'll see that he paid $17,280, which is much less than the price of an LX. Actually, its about $500 under invoice. In that price was the Doc Fee and mudguards; the only other costs were TTL.

    He got blue-book on the trade-in, so no low-balling there.
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Accords going for under invoice can be found on the Accord Prices Paid forum. In fact, the last post made is of a 2007 Accord V6 for less than $21k.

    Accord Prices Paid - SE-V6 for $338 under invoice after Doc Fees, click here
This discussion has been closed.