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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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I really like the Accord, always have as I've owned them before, but I find it hard to justify the price difference up front to reach an equivalent level of specs and features. And, don't bring up the depreciation argument, as the considerable money saved up front, makes up for the depreciation/residual value differential down the line.
Sure I do. But the Accord and Camry stand out in ZERO areas. It's like a Japanese Buick. Devoid of soul - just.. just a well built bland middle-aged commuter car.
Drive a RX-8(for real). It may not be a Camry in power or reliability, but it has fire in its little heart.
I would take a Camry (or Accord) with a manual over an automatic RX-8 - not even close.
So why bring it up? Many of these vehicles have excellent performance--both the 4 cyl and V6 Accord, the Camry V6 and Hybrid, Fusion V6, Sonata V6, etc. That's all you can really ask for--extreme handling and suspension is not even appropriate for this segment. The Mazda6 is about as racy as you are going to get, but that car gives up quite a bit in terms of space and refinement.
If you want a powerful, comfortable car that can fit a family, this is your segment. If you want "soul," its not. Midsize sedans don't have be boring--but in this day and age, many of them aren't. Some look good (in my eyes, the Camry's the most striking, the Fusion looks good, the Accord still looks sleek), some have a great interior features (instrument panel on Camry and Accord, features like bluetooth on Camry, even nav availability, and most of them have good space. Not to mention safety--most of these cars at least offer stability control (except for Fusion), a bunch of airbags, etc. And they represent good values...from the Sonata, which pakcs in features for a great price, to the Camry, which is looks and feels like a Lexus, has all the bells and whistles, at sub $30k even for a loaded model.
This is a good time to want a midsize sedan.
Don't hold your breath - how do you suppose you can ever quantify what could have happened but didn't. Just like seatbelts, every year they come out with some sort of 'lives saved' number, but the fact is they don't KNOW - it is only a guess. Or you can look at overall numbers and assume that any reduction is because of it. Or send out a survey to those that claim to have an incidence of the ESC activation and then assume that they would have gotten into an accident otherwise, or maybe just ask for an opinion? Some governmental arm may do just that so they can justify what they are about to do, it would certainly be one way to make sure that these 'real-life' results are what everybody wants to hear.
For me, the Accord stood out from its competitors in interior design and quality, fuel-economy vs. power, ride/handling perfectly compromised for me, etc...
I understand, everyone has a different compromise, but the Accord is a great blend of what a lot of people want - a family car that can be fun to drive. And it's not sorely lacking in any one area like some competitors were for me:
Sonata and Fusion interiors disappointed me.
I wouldn't consider GM, Chrysler, or VW because of reliability concerns.
Subaru was too expensive for what I wanted, and I have no need for AWD.
Camry (when I shopped, it was the 2006 models) was too soft, and frankly, seemed too old of a car for me (like me buying a Buick at age 19).
Altima was too loud and cheap inside, although the design was nice.
6 was just too small (I'm 6'4") for what I wanted.
i kind of worry about someone getting used to driving an esc equipped vehicle, then driving one without it(going from parents nice vehicle to their own pos).
i am also kind of ticked off because i did some research and found 'esc' is only available on a 4cyl camry as part of a $4560 option package, and on an accord only in the top v6 trim models. i guess i have only myself to blame for not seeking out the facts earlier. there was something about those 'at least offering' posts that bothered me. am i wrong? :confuse:
It's not like the ESC is going to be used often enough to get used to it, unless you consistantly drive like a NUT.
i want measurable results that 'esc' does what it advirtises.
If you really have to know, test drive a car that has it (on a rainy day) take to a large empty parking lot, and give it a test. :surprise:
i mean on an overall fleet basis.
I'll give you an unsolicited recommendation, it does. But no matter what anybody tells you, it has to be experienced. All ESC systems are not created equally, but they all try to do the same thing. Keep the car in the direction of the wheels.
As far as this: i kind of worry about someone getting used to driving an esc equipped vehicle, then driving one without it(going from parents nice vehicle to their own pos.
I have to call hooey on this statement. When anybody gets into an unfamiliar car, the rule is to get used to the car, the feel, the acceleration, the brakes, steering, controls and the like. Even younger drivers understand a new car takes some getting used to. The same argument can be made for ABS, DRLs, seatbelts, airbags and the like.
So why bring it up? Many of these vehicles have excellent performance--both the 4 cyl and V6 Accord, the Camry V6 and Hybrid, Fusion V6, Sonata V6, etc. That's all you can really ask for--extreme handling and suspension is not even appropriate for this segment. The Mazda6 is about as racy as you are going to get, but that car gives up quite a bit in terms of space and refinement.
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By "soul" I mean it has some personality and kick in it. A car with soft suspension - it's soulless. The Camry and Accord - can you GET manual and a 6 cylinder engine? A puny 4 clyinder engine won't get that 3400lb weight up to speed, either.
It's like looking at a nice Seiko watch. Incredibly well built but it stands out in no way as special or unique. Yamaha is simmilar in pianos. Very very nice, but not special.
Now, take something like the older Mercedes C230K Coupe. This was about 25-30K and it had a great feel it it. The A4 also goes pretty well(though reliability is - well, it's a VW at heart).
I mentioned the RX-8 because it looks like a sportscar but it's really a 4 seater sedan. It's perfectly decent, actually, for family use, just as much as say, a Dodge Stratus is(back seat in the Stratus only *really* fits two people as well). Or compare a Scion Tc. True, it has two doors, but it's much better to drive.
Me? I'd sacrifice a few percentage points in reliability anyday for a car that I'd want to keep until it wore out.
Ever heard of Accord V6-6 speed?
I mentioned the RX-8 because it looks like a sportscar but it's really a 4 seater sedan.
Not comparable to these mid-size sedans in backseat accessibility or comfort. You would have a hard time installing a rear facing car seat in an RX-8.
Rear Legroom:
07' Camry - 38.3 in
Civic - 34.6 in
RX-8 - 32.2 in
So the RX-8 has even smaller backseat room than the Civic, which is a "Compact Sedan". Can we now drop the RX-8?
Remember quite a while ago, when the insurance industry and governmental agencies were all ga-ga about the 55 mph speed limit? We were going to reduce highway deaths, save gas and many other wonderful things. Turned out not to be the case, because it effectively increased time drivers spent at risk.
That said, there is no doubt in my mind, that ESC systems will have impact on single vehicle accidents particulary in SUV type vehicles - it is those multiple vehicle crashes that could possibly require some rather serious avoidance capabilites, that bother me.
Wrong, wrong, wrong. And one thing has nothing to do with another. If you are really concerned about it, buy a BMW where you can fully disable the DSC.
"That said, there is no doubt in my mind, that ESC systems will have impact on single vehicle accidents particulary in SUV type vehicles - it is those multiple vehicle crashes that could possibly require some rather serious avoidance capabilites, that bother me."
There is no electronic nanny that can cover every conceivable driving situation. So rather than having some margin of safety you would opt for removal of all safety devices for no margin of safety?
As long as one is not out of control the ESC has no effect at all. It allows any driver to accelerate out of risk with no interference.
And since you obviously understand that there is no system that 'can cover every conceivable situation' I would prefer NOT to trust some computer programmer someplace to think/react for me.
Throttle to specific wheels, I believe, is the basis of the new Honda SH-AWD systems, something unique to that marque and not something that any of the cars in this group can do??? It is the braking systems that help restore vehicle balance by 'shooting juice' where it deems necessary.
Or you can do it mechanically like Subaru and Mitsubishi with TorSen limited slip differentials. Electronic traction control systems can reduce power output and grab individual brakes. Limited slip differentials put power to the wheels that can use it.
Or you can go really old school 80s Audi/Jeep Cherokee and do it with lockers on the diffs.
Enough with the pity party for Ford. Quit compensating for something, and being a Ford martyr, and take some pride, you have a very good automobile"
You got this all wrong.. I am not asking for a "Pity party". The fact is Fords last, are reliable well built vehicles. Yet you still have those Honda/Toyota drum beaters that think all Fords/GM products are just going to fall apart after 25,000 miles or won't last 100,000 miles.
Oh, I have pride in my Fusion, had pride in my Escape, Ranger and Escort too!
But hey! The Fusion makes the front cover of Consumer Reports!!!??? I have to say this shocks the heck out of me.. since Consumer Reports is known for its bias AGAINST anything GM/Ford/Dodge..
I'd rather the cars had the nannies and have my kids feel they are invincible, then to have less and not have any protection. They are going to drive the way they are going to drive, the horse is out of the barn as they say.
Did you actually expect the Fusion to win this award? The Fusion is totally outclassed by the Camry (among others).
But hey! The Fusion makes the front cover of Consumer Reports!!!???
So now Consumer Reports is your favorite mag. Talk about bias.
I am impressed! Camry is the car revelation of 2006! Most significant car of the year - surprising move by Toyota.
Toyota finally created sport sedan for unwashed masses (or it was Altima last time for unwashed American journalists?).
Seriously what is so significant about new Toyota Camry? Is it the fastest car on the road? Doubt it. Breakthrough in handling and suspension department? You are kiddning. #1 selling car in USA? Old news. Or design revelation similar to original Taurus? May be for MT stuff.
Where are they? Haven't seen one around here in a LOOOOONG time. I know you weren't really referencing something I had said (i hope not anyway), but in complete honesty, you are the one I had seen post supposed bad things about Ford most of all. Seems to hurt your case, like you are overcompensating. Just how it looks to me.
The Camry is a midsize Family sedan. It is not supposed to be the fastest on the road. It is not designed to be the best handling car. But it is what a Family sedan is supposed to be (by the American consumer's definition). I am not a Camry fan (I prefer the Accord myself) but it is, without question, exactly what most American consumers want (in a midsize family sedan). You don't necessarily have to agree. You can consider the car in your driveway your personal car of the year. I have.
However, I went to a Toyota dealer and looked at the trunk and it wasn't as tiny as I was expecting based on some pictures I saw online.
Two other surprises for me: Civic sales are down for last month.
The Toyota Prius is down in sales year over year (through November).
Subaru only has DSC on the super-wazouli models of Outback and the "big" SUV, I believe. Every manual trans Subaru has a limited slip rear diff and a torsen type center diff (except for the STI which has an adjustable one).
Even the old school DSM Eclipse/Talon/Laser could have an LSD on the AWDs.
I don't think DSCs are going to do a whole lot to reduce the number of accidents, I think it will be more like ABS where it changes the type of accident to something less serious, or less likely to take out innocents.
Check out the 2007 Forester XT Sport.
I'd have to agree with this. Although I think DSC can be helpful under certain specific conditions, I would geuss most accidents are largely influenced by excessive speed, distractions, or just bad decisions (drunk driving, lack of sleep, inexperienced drivers). Granted, some of these accidents could be made less severe or on occasion avoided altogether with DSC, but the vast majority would not. Instead of trying to use technology to correct behavioral issues seems a bit of a shortcut. DSC, although helpful and worth keeping/promoting, should be supplemented by better driver's ed programs and increased restrictions on driving by inexperienced or repeatedly dangerous drivers.
DSC doesn't have to be supplemented by anything. That's the beauty of it. You can mandate for every driver in the US continuing drivers ed classes, but you can do that without implementing DSC. Why wait for DSC for a great idea like continuing education and maybe a mandatory retest of the permit and road test procedures.
DSC will specifically make sure your vehicle goes where you point the wheel where the physical limits of the tires and brakes are not being exceeded. It's as simple as that. You don't need a PHD in DSCology to know that is a good thing. Where the physical limits of the car on the surface are being exceeded, you are in the same bad boat as you were before DSC, so you don't have to worry something different will happen. :sick
My proof? The Chevy Caprice Classic LTZ won in 1991, and was promptly laughed at by just about all other journalists and enthusiasts (including myself).
You don't have to go that far for other bad picks. The Ford Thunderbird in 2002? That lasted long... The 1997 Chevy Malibu? Yeah, right...
It probably will do something dramatic soon, within 2 years, and that is debut a diesel Accord in competition with the hybrid Camry.
So here is a question for the general audience....
MY 2009/2010 Honda brings out a diesel Accord, based on the new 2008 model, with middle level to upper level amenities such as an LX or EX, with prices ranging from $26000-$31000 and real world FE of 40 mpg Hwy. Deal or No Deal?
Actually it leads with the CR-V but in the midsized segment its workhorse the Pilot has to do double duty in fighting both the 4Runner and the Highlander. Honda doesn't have a truck-based vehicle in it's line up so the Pilot has to serve as it's 'off roading vehicle' and it's classy 'take the family to the Grandparents vehicle'. Together the 4R and Highlander outsell the Pilot.
Two other surprises for me: Civic sales are down for last month.
I find this weird too, I can only imagine that there is a lack of capacity. AFAIK it's only produced at one plant.
The Toyota Prius is down in sales year over year (through November).
The goal was is to sell the same number as the year before, i.e. about 105,000 units. It will end up very very close to that number IMO. The TCH launch took some capacity away early in the year