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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Competitive class these midsize sedans, a place where the "US" manufacturers have neither the expertise or money to do very well in?
And even if the Camry is a sport sedan (which it and the others cars in this group aren't) 'for the unwashed masses' what does, in your mind, qualify as COY?
I think this is the issue, I think the general public lacks a good mental model about how the system operates. I think some people feel the car will take control from them when they don't want it to, and I think some people have this idea that it evades laws of physics.
Between the DSC and Pre-Safe, those little black boxes are going to have lots of info about how people drive.
(Ex -How long was the Taurus allowed to languish, leading to its demise? Sure, an interior and exterior refresh in Fall 99 for '00, but otherwise, nothing in terms of mechanicals or design from Fall '95 until the out of production date on October 27th, 2006. This was a groundbreaking car when introduced in '85, folks!)
And while I agree that the Ford Thunderbird wasn't a sales hit, if you check the internet, those who own them seem to be very emphatic owners. And simply because a car doesn't sell well, doesn't mean its deficient - take, for example, the Nissan Titan, which is a TREMENDOUS truck. But for reasons of loyalty, initial build issues, lack of HD models, no diesel, etc, it hasn't sold nearly to expectation.
~alpha
then, perhaps you would like to take on an explanation of a test of the Chrysler 300 in the July 05 issue of C&D:
tested car was the 300 Touring, 3.5 V6 and in the context of being generally lauded for its handling " a big car that feels good being big" - but ultimately downrated because of speed limitations in both skidpad and lane change tests, both tests a reasonable measure of any car's avoidance capabilites. The quote: "Blame it on a hyperinterventionist stability control system that apparently hates tire squeal and refuses to be shutoff" While I'll certainly grant you that the folks that test these cars may be a card or two short of a full deck, it sure seems like the 300 is a car that ultimately suffers due to the way its particular 'nannies' decide what that car should be capable of. It is, remember, an evenly weight distributed RWD sedan with some German suspension engineering and should logically blow the doors off things like Maximas/Avalons in the twisties - but no - the reason apparently being an overzealous computer programmer/corporate lawyer.
Similarly, the C/D 10Best award is only for new or significantly changed cars, and for cars that won the award the previous year. Now THAT to me is more misleading than the COTY--calling 10 cars the "best" when they are only some of the cars available.
Actually, the C/D criteria does make sense. They explained it like this:
If a car didn't make the 10 best list last year, and it hasn't been significantly changed, then there's no reason to think it would be a 10 best car this year. The only exception I can think of is if a car was #11 last year and one of the 10best drops off the list, but that's probably rare.
true - and something that Toyota has done better over the years than any other car manufacturer, make well built cars that last seemingly forever, and make them almost Buick 'soft' - 'isolation' is what the American car buyer prefers if sales figures mean anything. Outside of the Supras (which will be making a comeback)and the new SE V6, I challenge you to name any car Toyota ever made that was considered 'sporty' or a 'performance car'?
The MT COY seems straightforward - of all cars that are new for '07, which best meets the 4 criteria established. In this year's test, it was narrowly the Camry over the Cayman, which it tied in initial voting.
Neither is perfect, both should be considered, and I find both very interesting reads, though I appreciate MT's publication of reviews and basic stats of EACH contender.
~alpha
What's so bad about that?
If were talking 10Best, then if they get the Mazda6 right on the '08 redesign, then there's your winner, since the current platform won the first year it was eligible. I highly doubt the Malibu would make it, but stranger things have happened.
I wouldn't doubt the '08 Accord will end up MTs COTY, whether or not it makes 10Best, unless they REALLY screw it up, but I doubt that. Plus, I don't know of any other '08 redesigns that would be "significant" enough, unless the Mazda6 REALLY hits a grand slam!
I know, wishful thinking...
I'm sure the '08 Accord will clean house, just as expected.
The Mazda6 could win the 10Best next year, but we'd never know if it really is the "best" because it won't have to compete with standouts in its class such as the Altima and Camry.
The '08 Accord could be great... or it could be another '01 Civic.
Yes we would. If the Camry and Altima were THAT good, they would've won over the (5-year old) Accord, and made them eligible for '08.
Besides, the "best" isn't solely determined by a car mag. They vote what THEY like, which could be totally different from what you or I prefer.
Finally, http://www.roadandtrack.com/article.asp?section_id=14&article_id=4357
Sorry to get OT, but I think thats a fairly decent list of credibly sporty cars from Toyota.
~alpha
As I said before this is a false concern. Maybe it could have saved three kids who totaled their cars whose case didn't have DSC. I don't know anybody who thinks they have the freedom to drive in the worse way possible due to airbags, seatbelts, DRLs, ABS, crumple zones and other advances. These people will drive like this with or without electronic nannies. Except without the nannies they are more at risk to themselves and their fellow drivers.
And it would also be those kids that usually think that they are all 'great drivers' and would continually push a car to its ESC prescribed limits 'just for the fun of it', and develop that reliance on a computer to 'correct' bad habits.
well let me turn on the lights - about a year ago, driving on a busy city fwy, left lane at about 70mph. Notice a backup approaching on my right at an upcoming entrance ramp.
somebody stopped at the end and whoever it was that was quite angry at this guy, decided to not only pull out from behind him, but also merge into 60-70 mph heavy traffic at maybe 30-40! Except that he didn't stop there - decided to continue on over to the far left lane where I was. My reaction was to simulutaneously swerve left onto the gravelly paved shoulder while hitting my accelerator HARD. Kicked up a bunch of dirt and fishtailed slightly - got around him because I was driving a car with a lot of power, had a little time to prepare myself for the problem, and probably also because I don't have an sort of stability system on it. Doing maybe 100 after I got around him before my pulse returned to normal and I could 'shut it down'. And no, had I been in that Chrysler 300 that should/would have been shutting it down 'automatically' on the shoulder I would likely have been rear ended as 5 other drivers were!
There are times, admittedly rare, that an aggressive approach may also be the 'correct' one - something that any ESC system worth a darn would have difficulty 'understanding'. IMO, power is a very underestimated safety feature - the ability to get out of somebody's way!
BTW, in this specific situation, I think that most ESC systems will brake only as much as required for the vehicle to 'level' the swerve i.e. preventing a spin but would also slow throttle and steering responses as well thereby 'keeping' the driver from getting into further trouble. A sensation of the car 'going dead' also something I have experienced in a Sonata.
That is my point, the kids don't need DSC to push the car, they are pushing the car without it. At least with DSC there is a prayer that they might not get into a crash. No thanks, I'll take my changes with DSC over non-DSC anyday. For every one situation you think you are better off without it, there are one hundred that it could save your hide.
You cannot beat or lose with DSC, if you are gonna crash your car you are gonna crash, but in traction situations it will save your butt.
you didn't really read what I said, the luck that I had somehow avoiding this guy was because I was able to accelerate around him aggressively something I don't believe and DSC is going to let me do. DSC is not something that is only hooked up to multiple channel brake systems, it can and will also control throttle and steering responses and even tranny gear selections.
I bet the overall deceleration from the ESC turning on is miniscule. Also, how do you deal every day with those people in front of you who release the gas pedal, thereby 'braking with no brake lights'? That's probably a bigger effect on the car speed than the ESC.
you didn't really read what I said, the luck that I had somehow avoiding this guy was because I was able to accelerate around him aggressively something I don't believe and DSC is going "
cap - I read what you said and am not arguing. DSC will let you go full throttle out of a situation. Even flooring it at 80. If you fishtail and have traction the DSC will straighten you out and you will move forward with control. If you floor it and lose traction, it really doesn't matter does it?
I guess that is the difference between the glass half empty and half full. I worry there is no nanny protecting my kids, especially with their four friends who totalled cars. You're worried about them taking unnecessary risks with the nanny. I'm not worried about the latter because I don't think the it matters, nanny or not the kids will do what they want. I'd rather have electronic intervention in place than not.
BTW. Rent a BMW 325 or 330 and play with it.
not in the Sonata I drove, as I said a sensation that the car goes 'dead', unresponsive to almost any inputs (including throttle) except I think it would have allowed me to turn up the stereo
That's why I suggest trying a BMW to see how a DSC type function should be implemented. (I know from where I speak). The odds are stacked against you making sudden emergency maneuvers without DSC. I've seen accidents (on COPs) where a guy not wearing a seatbelt was thrown clear of the car without a scratch going over 100. Is that a reasonable happenstance to believe 100% of the time? I wouldn't bet my life on it and consequently I'll wear seatbelts basing this on the odds of survival, rather then odds of being thrown free.
At this point the car is VERY SENSITVE to inputs, lifting off the gas will likely spin the car, over correcting will spin the car, the car still might not be facing the right direction.
This is where DSC can help most drivers of most cars. Individually braking a wheel can balance traction to keep the car on the path the driver wants. 10 years of autocross and HPDEs have taught me to compensate (although it still makes all the hair on the back of my neck stand up), but I think this system will help a lot of drivers.
If you live in California:
http://www.bhrentacar.com/
Just as an aside, maybe your post indicates "you-pay-for-what-you-get" in the Sonota has something to it.
If people drive an ESC equipped car the same as they would any other car, the ESC can help. If they push the car more than they would otherwise or beyond reason, the ESC probably won't help.
Wait.... Glad that's over. Some idiot just tried to merge into my lane while I was typing this on my laptop, had the coffee cup almost to my mouth, cigarette in left hand and cell phone between my shoulder and ear. That stupid idiot. ESC wouldn't help him with the type of lane change he just performed by gunning the gas.
ESC works with traction control, which uses ABS. ESC will cut the engine if necessary. Without ESC you risk understeer or skid or with RWD oversteer and tailspin. Assuming there is some traction, and this is important, ESC will not let you exceed the limitations of the vehicle and surface assuming there is some control to the vehicle (not on black ice for example). This control happens in the blink of an eye before you can even think about it. Of course if you want to play the odds you plant your foot on the gas and take your chances. ESC will not compensate for rabid stupidity, but assuming you drive the car normally it will do its' job.
One of the prereqs for ABS is 4 channel ABS with EBD vs 3 channel. 3 channel ABS controls both rear wheels as a unit, nullifying the effect of controlling wheel individually. Sorry if I am posting things you already know, it's just a general comment to your post.
I love this, and it brings this point to mind. ABS, TCS, Airbags, and ESC are all great advances in car safety. But nothing will make the driver smarter. For all of you idiots talking on cell phones (especially the one who rear-ended my wife), if it's not a "Life or Death" call, SHUT UP, AND DRIVE.
Its still surprising that Prius sales are down considering all the noise about it. To some degree, blame it on gas prices and the tax credits. Discounts of around $2,000 can now be had in my locale and there's plenty of inventory.
As far as the 2008 Accord, it will be a good vehicle. I expect even better gas mileage from its 4 cylinder engine and very smooth automatic. Perhaps 1 to 3 in city/highway. Honda does not typically increase hp on the 4 that much, if at all. The Six cylinger will have a bump up I bet since Honda is now getting 300 hp on its sixes.
PS I wrote those last two posts that you responded and others responded. Not sure why it posted as "unknown." Anyway, my one cent is added. See you guys in a month and Happy Holidays.
keep in mind, mazda is one of ford's most profitable lines. although most drivers in N America seem to prefer utilitarian type cars, there is a significant market (particularly those who are younger at heart) who like cars that handle well.
also, recent history would suggest that mazda is not short of seed money to develop new cars. mazdaspeed6, mx-5 hardtop, mazda5, mazdaspeed3, cx-7 and cx-9 have all come out in the last few years. mazda's cars continue to get very good press and I think there's a good chance that sales at mazda will continue to climb, particularly if the new 6 can make some significant improvements. while ford has been languishing in the US, mazda has been doing well to focus it's marketing and design. with new engines and transmissions already in use, it won't take much for mazda to take the 6 to the next level. of course I would add that it's not entirely necessary since the 6 is a great car already :shades:
What if I'm talking on my cell phone thru a Bluetooth connection thru my stereo - handsfree of course? Can I still be on my call? I forward my office phone to my cell when I leave for lunch or appointments etc. Typically not a life or death situation (usually).
Most cars will have this feature soon.
Maybe the people who are 'on' their phone that don't seem to be talking to anyone (wanting to look like they're not a lonely person?) won't like this feature, but I do.