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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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How far out of the way would you go to fill up on biodiesel?
How much would you be willing to pay/Gal to use biodiesel?
For me, Biodiesel is available locally at the same gas station I use currently.
Diesel/B5 is currently about the same price as premium unleaded.
The real question on biodiesel is if the diesel engine you are buying is compatible with biodiesel. Many are not because biodiesel eats the seals, and will void the warranty. If the car can actually run biodiesel or regular diesel, that would be a plus also.
Actually Bio-diesel is "greasier" than conventional diesel and has better lubricating properties. I think you are getting confused with M85, which is an alcohol that does actually eat seals if they aren't designed to withstand it.
Most diesel motors (dunno about "blue ray cat pea" motors yet) are compatible with B5, while a tuning kit is required from TDIs to run greater than B20. This has more to do with the emissions system and additive packages than the fuel itself.
The Probe was a Mazda. The 90-92 Prove V6 was a Vulcan, the 93-96 V6 was a Mazda designed V6. The only mutli-valve Vulcan engine was the one in the Taurus SHO and that was done by Yamaha. The Dura/Z-tec engines were a different family and share no parts (even the bore/stroke on the 3l is different then the Vulcan, IIRC).
The Mazda/Probe FWD drive-train (especially the 2.2l Turbo w/"165 hp") was different from the 2.3l Kent 4 cylinder in the Fox body Mustang (and earlier Capri, Pinto, Fairmont, and later turbo Mustang SVO, Thunderbird Turbo Coupe, and Merkur XR4Ti)
Just as impressive is the new Hyundai plant, to me. It is just south of Montgomery on I-65.
A huge misconception, no, foreign transplants do not use
100% U.S. labor. I have had the opportunity to visit a few of these transplants. Much of the support/parts/tooling is foreign.
But I'd give the Accord an A, even with its 5 year old design. When the 08 Accord hits the Fusion will be less attractive. So yea, Ford does an OK car in the Fusion, but OK doesn't cut it when the competition is so much better.
I kicked Ford to the curb years ago when their cars I owned were disappointments, not because the 'media' told me to."
Once again we have perception here. I would give the Accord a B, on the account you are paying about $2,000 more just to own a car with a silver "H" for an emblem. I have owned Honda products and just don't see the reason why I should pay more? Having owned different Ford products for almost 20 years they all have served me well. Wife wanted an Accord in 2000, had a few minor issues, electric window, wind noise, and the radio. Nothing mechanical. I just couldn't see the big deal about the Accord.
But hey, that is what choice is all about.. Choice is nice.. :shades:
I'll quite my "buy American" tirade when you come to grips that Honda and Toyota are Japanese companies, with Headquarters in Japan, not the U.S. and are not American car companies.. So, how about it?
Haha, I live in Alabama (15 miles from the Mercedes plant, about 90 minutes from the Hyundai plant, and less than an hour from the Honda plant). I can personally tell you many MANY people from the Birmingham area work for Mercedes and Honda (The Hyundai plant is more central to Montgomery). I go to church with several of these people, and am pretty close with one of the robot technicians and the Honda plant, and can say that what you are implying isn't true...
So what if they import materials? Is it not good that these companies are pouring money into my state's treasury, and creating booms in the towns where the factories are built? Is it not good that they are helping the working class? Personally, I'd take the middle class and local governements getting some support from these companies than the corporate big-wigs and federal government getting support (a la Ford's Mexico plant(s)) but not bringing new jobs to America's working class.
Locals work in the plants, hence the unemployment rate plummeting in Alabama over the last few years.
Perception is reality, bud. If I perceive ice cream to be cold, chances are it is cold.
I would give the Accord a B, on the account you are paying about $2,000 more just to own a car with a silver "H" for an emblem. I have owned Honda products and just don't see the reason why I should pay more? Having owned different Ford products for almost 20 years they all have served me well. Wife wanted an Accord in 2000, had a few minor issues, electric window, wind noise, and the radio. Nothing mechanical. I just couldn't see the big deal about the Accord.
But hey, that is what choice is all about.. Choice is nice
Nobody's bashing your choice for a Fusion - because you can't see the quality differences in the Accord and Fusion, you SHOULD NOT get a Honda, it'd be wasted on you. I grew up in a household with Fords, Chryslers, and Hondas. There is a reason we refuse to get Chryslers, they were particularly unreliable. We don't buy Fords because of their poor interior designs and gruff sounding engines.
To me, a sweeter engine, better resale value, a much more up-to-date and more expensive looking interior, better gas mileage, more horsepower, and a dealer who is always willing to negotiate fair prices (unlike what you report in your area) means the Accord was best for me. You say choice is nice, but choosing to pay more isn't always wrong, as you imply. If it was, we'd all be in $11,000 Kia Rios and Chevy Aveos with no options.
Read the article above. It points out how many "American" cars are less American than Japanese cars (Chrysler PT Cruiser is less American than a Toyota Avalon). People in Mexico are being paid to build the Fusion. People in America are being paid to build the Accord. The car business is Global. Haven't you heard?
I think that's just the media beating that perception into our heads. :sick:
Ford - stick to trucks.
And I guess my moonroof is broken because it retracts inside the roof.
Considering how GM and Ford aren't even making a profit, their corporate part isn't even contributing taxes either, and even investors don't see any dividends, either(or very very small ones). In this way they're functionally no different than their foriegn competitors. Nothing contributed is nothing contributed either way.
So the only two litmus tests left are where it is built and what the labor is(union being better - and SOME foriegn plants are union)
Or stated differently, the Fusion is quirky. The turn signal position on the wheel is very odd. As is the sales guy telling me "this car competes against the Accord". Yea right. Maybe competes if the customer has never owned a CamCord and is used to mediocrity.
Yeah so it doesn't reduce headroom...hmm what a concept
Ford needs to smooth out the engine and smooth out some issues in the interior, and it's got a much better car.
The 4 cyl Accords (which is majority of sales) also do not have ESC available...why not?
No accords have AWD available, why not?
I don't know if it's perception or not; people certainly seem to think the Accord is superior to many other products, and worth the difference in price.
For example, as a direct comparison, I just received firm quotes from the respective dealers on a 2007 Accord SE I4 with automatic and a 2007 Sonata GLS I4 with automatic and the Premium Package. The Accord SE does have alloy wheels, whereas the Sonata does not. On the other hand, the Sonata has VSC, whereas the Accord does not. The delivered price including TTL on the Accord SE is $21,700. The delivered price on the Sonata, again with TTL, is $16,810.
Is the Accord worth $5,000 more than the comparably-equipped Sonata. Some would say yes, others no.
Plot the depreciation rate of both, and one comes up with surprising numbers . . . the actual "out-of-pocket" costs, primarily due to the exceptional purchase incentives available on the Sonata, are actually quite similar over time. According to to Yahoo! Autos calculator, the Total Cost to Own (5 Year Average for Illinois)) on the Accord SE is $37,117, with a 5-year average total depreciation of $11,067. The Sonata's Total Cost to Own (5 Year Average for Illinois) is $37,993, with a 5-year average total depreciation of $11,280.
Is the Total Cost to Own based on the price quotes you received or is it based on MSRP....or some other number.
Your figures show that the Sonata depreciates about $210 more than the Accord in five years. Since depreciation is a significant part of the Cost to Own, is it deducted from MSRP or actual street price?
Accord = 21700 - 11067 = $10633
Sonata = 16810 - 11280 = $5530
You have to bet on that there are not many used five year old 2007 Sonata on the market to sell the five year old Accord for $10633. Is a five year old 2007 Accord SE worth twice as much as a five year old 2007 Sonata GLS? Absolutely not. By the way, if you put $5000 into CD that makes 5%, you have about additional $1300 in hand after five years. You have $6300 cash in hand. Even if you sell a five year old 2007 Sonata GLS for $5530, you still have $11830. I guess that a five year old 2007 Sonata GLS is more likely worth $7500. In the end, you have about $14000. Sonata is not a bad deal at all.
But, the substantial up-front savings due to factory incentives on the Sonata still make the depreciation/resale not as bad as many perceive it to be.
I can say with confidence that no person in history has ever actually paid cash for a less expensive car and opened up a CD with the difference in price, just to see how much "better off" financially they were after 5 years. I've seen this argument crop up quite a bit and it is so flawed I don't know where to begin.
It is more along the lines of having to sell that much less stock or other investment to pay for the car. If you have 20k just sitting that was saved up by putting a little bit in your mattress every week, you have bigger problems.
It was not to see "how much better off" I would be in 5 years, rather I found something much less expensive that she liked just as well. So, I guess I'm in the 1-percentile minority!
And Ford, to trucks.
See, my blanket statement has no bearing on the conversation either.
Did it help the thread? Did it post any new, relevant ideas or information? No.
I think we need to ask ourselves this question each time we post: "What does this contribute to the progress of the forum?" If you can't answer it, chances are, it is better left unsaid, because it usually ends up being a personal statement, or a useless slam with zero credibility.
Fusion not at "same level".. same old story, same old perception. Not going to last very long. Consumers are getting smarter, asking why pay the extra dollars for a Camry/Accord? With forums like these its only a matter of time. The Accord/Camry are overpriced/overrated/overdone..
Their resale better be higher since you pay more upfront. Their reliabitliy isn't any better, get out on the net and do your own research. Heck, even CR posted the Fusion reliability as being very good. Reliabiltiy is a non-factor, its done.
Interior of the Fusion being cheap?? Stratigic Visions gave Fusion an award for the interior. I like the interior of my Fusion. Fit/finish is fine in my book. Is the Camry/Accord worth the extra $2-$4,000 dollars?? Heck NO!!
The same applies to my the post I just made (9351). Things like this don't help anyone, and just offend others, and get us way WAY off track.
Again, your opinion. Quit implying anybody paying more for a different car is ignorant, PLEASE. It was old hundreds of posts ago. Now, the dead horse has completely disintegrated.
It would be just as intelligent sounding for me to say "Who would buy the dated-looking interior, lowest horsepower in the class Fusion when you can get an Accord for a little more?"
Sounds really smart, doesn't it?
You must have redesigned the car then, because this picture sure looks like it is blocking some buttons way down on the dash (why are they way down there anyways?).
Original post you replied to is here
It wasn't my statement initially. I know the old CRX did this because there wasn't enough roof for it to slide back into (and it left some headroom). Does the G6 sunroof do that with its funky according opening?
I do think the Sonata offers a lot for the money. Moreso than a Fusion. Actually when I test drove the Sonata and Fusion the same day (both V6s) the Sonata slayed the Fusion in every aspect that interests me except styling.
I had an 06Monte Carlo as a rental a while back. So I'm sitting in the driveway trying to adjust the A/C, and the shifter is definitely in the way. Bad design, and very similar to the Fusion design. Ergonomics, not good, grade=D