Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

bhmr59

Perhaps you missed the point.

I bought my '05 Sonata GLS Special Editon (the LX without leather or power driver seat) in April of '05 and paid $16,705 including all fees to dealer, plus sales tax and incidental state fees.

I had initially thought I'd have to buy a nice used car, but then I found out about the Sonata with its equipment and warranty (which is the equivilant of many extra cost extended warranties) plus the lower finance rate for new vs used cars and the Sonata fit into my budget without any strain. An extra $50 per month wouldn't have been a killer then. In fact, rather than buy a possibly abused 3 to 5 year old used Civic or Accord (with probably 40 to 70K miles), I am paying more than $50 more per month than I would be paying for the cars you suggest.

What I did not anticipate, not having a crystal ball, is that my local property taxes would increase 30% from 4/05 to 7/06 (over $6300 per year now), nor that the FED would increase overnight interest rates by 425 basis points in that time frame.

If you don't have to be concerned about obligations, such as mortgage payments, home equity payments (still have son's college loans in there) or other obligations for you family, go ahead and knock yourself out by committing to an extra $50 per month. In fact, you could be happier by committing to an extra $100 a month. What the heck, $100 per month is only $50 more than $50 per month and that extra $50 per month is nothing. Right?

kdshapiro

Heck you could get a used Elantra and really go to town. I still don't understand why more people don't follow your logic, something about the 250K people who buy Accords each year, just don't get it. 250K people are shelling out 100*12*3*250K=$900,000,000 MILLION extra over three years.

bhmr59

Refering to my original post, about an additonal $50 per month can be meaningful to some people, what are you trying to say?

I said nothing to degrade Accords (or Civics)or any car. Yep, I said that a used Honda may have been abused by the prior owner, but nothing about the quality of the car.

Umm, I think you also meant $900 million, not $900 Billion.

elroy5

Don't forget, I was just using the Taurus vs Accord as an example. But since no one has yet posted any URLs with any other studies, I guess we're still sticking to stories.

Obviously people are not buying cars based on reliability alone. An article I read on MSN Autos says that fuel mileage is the #1 influence on car buyers. If reliability was all that mattered, Ford would still be making the Taurus, and they would be selling like hotcakes.

tinatina

I have to agree with what the MSN Auto article states. Fuel economy was most important to me as secondly was its reputation. That's is why I chose a Honda Accord 4 auto. (I did not want a hybrid).

As far as the Accord stats - Here goes the list of problems:

1997 Accord - 100k miles - One warranty item - a new igniter way after the warranty expired. Honda provided a service update.

2000 Accord - 52k miles. No warranty items.

2004 Accord - 40k miles - Air bag recall a year after ownership - No other warrantey related items.

2006 Accord - one warranty item - defective front shock within a few hundred miles of ownership. Car has over 5,400 miles presently - no other problems.

I have had no tranny related issues or hesitation with the dbw in the 2006. The only tranny that required replacement was an 88 Acura Integra with over 80k miles. This was after twelve years of ownership.

O/T - Bobw3, you should look at dumping those home equtiy loans, which adjust, and try to refinance into a fixed rate mortgage. The rates are in the low 6%s. I still can not believe that some folks in the media are talking about "high interest" rates. I know its off topic.

thegraduate

it is very rare for anyone to get stranded in any modern car, no matter what brand it is

That may be the case, and ours may have been anomoly. Thrice stranded by two of our Chryslers; enough for us to avoid the brand at all costs, now. it isn't foolishness when it actually happens to you.

booyahcramer

Refinancing isn't free. And HELOCs are interest only, yielding nice, low payments. And of course they are 'lines of credit' available when you need 'credit'. They may (and do) adjust down (altho not lately - but the upside seems capped for now)

So equity lines aren't all bad. Man people buy Accords with them, and maybe even Fusions (not sure why).

mfletou1

Ok, but why didn't you buy a Taurus? You could have gotten even a new one for less than that--loaded all the way up.

You would have saved lots of money and gotten a car which most people agree would have been reliable, safe transportation.

So why not?

explorerx4

i had a new taurus (1400 miles) as a loaner for a few days while my wife's escape was in for repairs.
i liked the interior width, but my focus has more headroom.
i was shocked to see the same exterior doors as our '96, although that was an sho model with a moonroof.

bhmr59

I don't care for leather or a sunroof. I liked the 5/60 & 10/100 warranty.

I think the S.V. version of the '05 GLS Sonata offered more than the Taurus and was a more up-to-date car.

I visited my son in AZ (I'm in CT) 3 weeks before I bought the Sonata. His '01 Ford, while nice, didn't have the features the Sonata has, nor the warranty. I also felt the ride and quietness of the Sonata was much better. I didn't drive his car, so maybe it wasn't a completely fair comparison.

Don't know the numbers but I don't think a new '05 Taurus had a lower street purchase price than a new '05 Sonata GLS "special value" comparabily equipped. S.V. included extra goodies and made it the same car as the LX, except for leather seats and power drive sear, for a couple thou less than an LX.

The '05 Sonata, the so-called "Jag look" was the last year of that generation & I knew it. However, it was a much more modern car that the Taurus.

It was a judgement, personal preference call, at the time. An additional $50 a month, at the time, was not a concern. Costs/obligations over which I have no control now make that $50 more important to me.

Again, if $50 means nothing why not go $100 more per month? $100 is only $50 more than $50. Where is the line drawn?

explorerx4

if you are in connecticut, wait until you get your next electric bill. :sick:

tinatina

Not true. There are no cost/no point fee, where the costs are none or are very minimal. Of course, you will receive a slightly higher interest rate. HELOCS may be good for some of the reasons you mentioned, but not over the course of 17 interest rate increases by the FED. In that type of rate environment, holding an adjustable loan product is not advisable. Now, may be the time to consolidate debt and refinance into a fixed product.

On topic - Any news of the new Accord? I bet some information is released soon - perhaps in early 2007?

targettuning

Since we are discussing the Taurus as an example of reliability or lack of I'll throw in my experiences. We owned about 6 or 7 Taurus and Sables..lets see, a 1986 GL sedan (first year),three 1987's (an LX sedan, a GL SW and a Sable SW) a 1988 Sable sedan, and finally a 1989 SHO. All were bought used with low to moderate mileage, the 86 sedan was totalled within a month of our buying it...the 87 station wagons both the Taurus and Sable ended up being around a while, the 87 LX sedan also was around for about 10 years, the 88 Sable sedan was sold when someone offered me more than I paid (it was pristine with low miles) and the SHO also was sold after it was determined I wasn't driving it enough to warrant keeping it. So based on the long term use of the wagons and the LX sedan, all over 6 years and in the case of the Taurus sedan and wagon 12 years I observed that the transmissions were problematic in as much as both went south but to varying degrees. Keep in mind transmissions were a known and common problem on these..the LX sedan had about 187,000 miles when I sold it with the original transmission...the Taurus wagon went 192,000 miles on the original transmission before it exploded and was replaced with a remanufactured unit and finally the Sable wagon went about 123,000 miles before its transmission needed replaced with a salvage yard unit. That one went an additional 40K miles before loosing OD. The Vulcan 3.0 V-6 was,and is,in my opinion one of the best engines Ford built. None of these cars need any engine work beyond water pumps and alternators (another common failure)and the odd starter motor and none sounded noisy or used any oil. The 87 LX sedan was a total nightmare and I quickly had more $$ in it than original purchase price. Power window and lock problems, AC problems, wiring problems etc...etc. On the other hand the 87 Taurus wagon was sold last Thanksgiving and it had 288,000 miles and ran and drove fine. So, the early or 1st generation Taurus/Sables were a mixed bag for me. One thing I did notice in driving much newer Taurus (1999-2003) there were small items i.e. brake pedal pads, power window control panels, and various other like items that were used through much of the life span and were identical to mine in 1987-88. Long post but my experience says they can be reliable but I experienced enough in the way of problems that I will not consider Ford in my future. We recently bought our first ever Honda product recently, a 2006 Civic and in short it has been disappointing reliability and quality wise. Ask me why, but that is another post!

thegraduate

I'll ask you about your Civic, maybe post it on the Civic problems and solutions board?

targettuning

If you look around there you will aready find my thoughts on the 2006 Civic in various posts within a few relevant threads..try "Honda 2006 issues" and "Honda 2006 lug-bug".

thegraduate

Oh dear, you got the bug. My dad's 2007 obviously doesn't have it, as I tried to make it do it during the test drive. Did they not issue a TSB on it, something about a pulley-system issue that they found and could fix it?

goodegg

There are no cost/no point fee, where the costs are none or are very minimal. Of course, you will receive a slightly higher interest rate

No closing cost loans always carry a higher interest rate. I wouldn't call the rate bump slight, at all. A higher rate mimimizes payment benefits. And the environment now isn't for increasing rates, its for stable or lower rates. HELOCs have already adjusted up. There's no upward pressure now. Keeping what you have isn't always a bad idea unless you got fleeced on your current loan structure. Refinancing isn't free.

Even car loan rates have eased backed a little.

targettuning

After a full year since the intro of the 2006 models in the fall of last year Honda finally issued a service bulletin to address the problem (longer serpentine belt + rerouted belt path) and it seemed to have worked for me..if only the other noise issue could be fixed soon.

lilengineerboy

Actually, the Accord holds the record for most times on a hook in my family. It also holds the record for most times stranded to vehicle issue (flat tires don't count). At one point we got a letter from AAA saying they would charge if we made them come and get it again.
I still don't think its a terrible car or anything, and nothing it did would deter me from getting another if it met my wants/needs.
My folks had an 80s Caravan and I remember that thing making it home on its last legs on occasion, but I never remember being stranded with it (even when the trans went, it made it home in 2nd taking surface streets).

tinatina

You obviously did not read my post. I disagree with you when you said refinancing isn't "free." This statement
is just not true.

I also said no cost/no point loans always carry a highier rate because they are paying most/all closing costs. The rate is as little as 1/4% to as much as 1/2%, or even higher (if its a high jumbo loan). In my case, the rate I got was 1/4% higher than a no point but fee fixed rate. I refinaced four properties I own and paid no cost and no points to do each of those loans.

The HELOC you are referring to have rates at or near their most recent peak. That's why you are seeing a lot of foreclosure on real estate - What I mean are the stats are indicating recent highs in foreclosures. You are also seeing a surge in refinancing as people are getting out of adjustable products and going into fixes. Refer to marketwatch.com for the stats on yesterday's mortgage rates refinancing.

Finally, there are a lot of other variables - such as how manyyears you have left on the loan and he should seek advise, if necessary. That's why I said he "may want to consider this." But to say outright that its not worthwile, that's utter stupidity.

alamocity

Not sure what part of the country you live in but the price you were quoted on the Accord seems rather high. Here in Texas with a sales tax rate of 6.25% the drive out price is $19,770 while the Sonata you mentioned runs $18,800 out the door. Must admit I expected there would be a greater gap between models but at least here that is not the case.

booyahcramer

The HELOC you are referring to have rates at or near their most recent peak. That's why you are seeing a lot of foreclosure on real estate

If your interest rate on your HELOC causes you to be in foreclosure then you had no business being in a HELOC in the first place.

HELOCs rate bumps aren't the cause of these foreclosures, its the bigger first mortgages that are resetting that cause the payment shock.

HELOCs are a great product, as long as the bulk of your mortgage financing (your first mortgage) is in a fixed rate, amortizing loan.

A lot of people buy their cars with a HELOC.

backy

Not sure what part of Texas (San Antonio?) you live in, but in Central Texas Edmunds.com has the TMV for the Accord SE I4 AT at $21,596 before T&L with no incentives available, and the TMV for the Sonata GLS I4 AT at $16,734 after the rebates that w9cw qualifies for (including $500 loyalty rebate), before T&L. So you must have a combination of a real hungry Honda dealer and a unrealistic Hyundai dealer--or you didn't try very hard at the Hyundai dealer, since the price you were quoted isn't much under MSRP before the $1000 general rebate.

zzzoom6

Of course I'd never buy a 4dr sedan anyway. I'd rather buy a station wagon/CUV or whatever they're calling them today because they're so much more versatile than a sedan with a 14CuFt trunk.

I'd have to agree...having all that extra space comes in handy. I used to have an accord 2dr hatchback and a legacy wagon before my mazda6 hatchback and it was always great to have that extra storage room. I remember when I had my accord sedan and I wanted to put a nightstand in it and it wouldn't fit. had to get some cardboard and twine and gingerly drove home with the nightstand halfway hanging out. and of course it was raining...uggh. never again!

Granted, most of the time the extra space I have now in the hatchback (keep in mind, in the mazda6, the hatchback has only 2 fewer cubic feet of storage than the wagon version), but on the occasions when I need it, I'm so glad I made this choice. Almost got tempted to go with the accord, largely because of it's awesome 6 speed manual tranny and my past positive experiences with honda, but the mazda6 hatchback had all that I was looking for for thousands less. Great looks, awesome handling compared to others in this class (or any other class with comparable storage space), solid reliability, fun to drive, and lots of space.

lilengineerboy

I have found a $99 "hidden hitch" and a $25 wiring adapter have turned my sedan into an SUV by allowing me to carry 4 bikes on the back via a hitch mounted rack, move an entire dining room set (buffet, china hutch, drop leaf table, 2 slides and 8 chairs) for a $12 fee (to uHaul for a 5x8 cargo trailer), and camp via a pop-up trailer. I would say I move furniture big enough to require a trailer 3-4x/year, and I've only camped with a pop-up once to see if I liked it.
My point is, I don't worry so much about the shape of the body for all this "utility." I don't need to transport that much often enough to warrant it playing a major role in my purchase decision.

autoboy16

"brand new 10 year old"

Thats how my car drives, but it is 12 years old... Honda did it well.

My neighbor bought a fusion back in april. Her fusion is a red sel. I think its nice from the outside but kind of err(for lack of a better word) :sick: inside. Then she gave me a ride. It took off nice but it was like there was no sound insulation between the engine and the cabin! Not to mention the crappy exhaust note. I hear 4cyl accords with better notes. Even the plush camry has a nice 4cyl tone.

Next is the rear seat comfort. "Its so wittle ittle yeas it is"

Ford messed up on the fusion. The milan is a better choice. The fusion is a great from the out side but got to many corners cut inside. I guess the next best sedan from ford will be a mustang...



-Cj

booyahcramer

You have a hatchback - but DON'T have a trunk. Giving up a trunk for a hatchback for the couple times I need to put a nightstand in my car is not an acceptable trade-off for me. I have many more uses for a trunk than a hatchback. Maybe a one car family prefers a hatchback, but most households have 2+ vehicles, and many times one is a van or SUV, which can hold a heck of a lot more than a nightstand.

tinatina

No, Helocs are not always a great product, especially in this recent rate environment. The fact remains that a Heloc - although some have low teaser rates- most rates are in the 7% or 8%. A car loan at my credit union is 5% for a 60 month term. So, if you think its a better rate with a Heloc by all means take it.

I agree with your other statement though.

alamocity

Yes I live in San Antonio and the price quote on the Accord was legit and did surprise me. I will agree that the Honda dealer was indeed hungry and willing to deal without the hassle of bickering back and forth. Granted I don't qualify for the military or loyalty rebates from Hyundai and the deals on the six cylinders are much better was none the less shocked at the quotes given by the Hyundai dealers. I'm sure you can get a better deal if you are willing to haggle and spend time at the dealership.

goodegg

No, Helocs are not always a great product, especially in this recent rate environment. The fact remains that a Heloc - although some have low teaser rates- most rates are in the 7% or 8%. A car loan at my credit union is 5% for a 60 month term. So, if you think its a better rate with a Heloc by all means take it.

I didn't see the word 'always' in the poster's comment about HELOCs being a good product. But taking your example, the 5 year car loan at 5% (looks too low to me -whatever) yields a payment of $471 for a $25,000 loan. The same loan amount on a 8.25% (prime rate - YMMV) HELOC yields a payment of $171.

Sure you're liening your house for the $25K and paying interest only on the HELOC, but look at the payment difference! There are dozens of reasons why folks would use the HELOC method to finance their vehicles nonetheless, and they do everyday.

Not sure why you're trashing HELOCs. Their market acceptance is HUGE. Especially for the ones whose home value has skyrocketed, and bought a very nice vehicle with the windfall.

plekto

You can pay cash in effect. Huge negotiating power and also if you really want, you can drop collision on it since it's effectively paid off. (not that smart, but if you want to save $1K a year, you could as well).

Almopst any house in the U.S. goes up 10-20K a year at least, so after a couple of years, it's a no-brainer to do this. My friend just re-financed his house and rolled all of his credit cards, student loans(few K left - more of a convienence than anything else) plus three cars, a remodel, a new tv... you get the picture...

And he still has $100K or more in equity left. It's actually saving him 6-8 pieces of paperwork/mail a month and $400-500 a month as well. So, yes, they can be great things as long as you don't get crazy with them.

jeffyscott

My neighbor bought a fusion...it was like there was no sound insulation between the engine and the cabin

Of course, actual, unbiased, measurements show very little difference in noise levels between Fusion and Accord or Camry.

autoboy16

I never said the camry or accord wasn't loud. The accord and camry have good engine sounds from both inside and outside the cabin. The fusion has a dowdy (for lack of a better word) sound from both inside and outside. I hear it every time she leaves. Its not as pleasant sounding as the accord or camry. I like the sound of engines and the fusion is not one of them.

-Cj

scape2

Taurus relibiability.. can talk all you want about personal experiences.. fact is it is a very reliable vehicle. Get out on the net and see for yourself. Taurus is every bit as reliable as an Accord. Honda folks hate to hear it, but its true!

jeffyscott

Oh, sorry my mistake, I did not realize that you also think Accord and Camry sound as if there is no insulation between the engine and the cabin.

goodegg

I don't need to 'go out on the net' to know that my 96 Taurus was a POS. The only car I've ever owned that was a such a major disappointment.

scape2

Much of the car buying experience is based purely on image and status. Anyone wanting a BMW is not going to opt for an Accord or Camry or anything in this segement. With the Euro brands struggling on the reliability issue it does surprise me why someone would put down $35,000 ++ for a vehicle that may give them headache after headache...

kdshapiro

But there is a reason... :P

scape2

Bob, I'm right with ya! I am also a 25+ year Ford owner with various Ford trucks and car models over the years. All of them served me well with minimal if any problems. I owned an Accord too! Sold it, never will I own another. I just didn't see the greatness some of these Honda owners talk about. Convincing me to pay an extra $2-4,000 just to own an Accord/Camry is liking trying to get oil from a water spout, I won't do it. Value is what I look for and In my opinion Toyota/Honda have lost it. They are riding a wave of past history. Consumers are slowly finding this out, it will take time. I already have..

scape2

I think he is trying to show you the Taurus can be just as reliable as an Accord...

autoboy16

Why else does the accord get marked down for so much road noise. Its an old noisy engine that gets the job done. Its plusses are its exhaust note and pull. Its a sports luxury car of sorts. Think fwd bmw 3(w/ run flats and sport package). Its not as prestigious as the bmw in fact not even close. IMO the only thing they share is the commoness of it now and previous generations. Its noisy but comfortable non the less. Great interior, dated exterior and good old engine. Its does very well in everything.

The camry OTOH isn't as loud as the fusion but its loud for a toyota. Its stiff in the SE trim also. But its the 2nd most powerful engine available. Its a new design. Its a baby lexus but noisy for a toyota. They went out the quiet box and a little more into the sporting box. It has a good engine, exterior and interior. Thats why its such a competitive car.

The fusion is loud and dishearting. Not my ideal car for a road trip. Its is sporty like the accord and altima but not elegant like the camry or passat. Its interior has that cheap feeling, the exterior is nice but a bit over the top (IMO) and its engine is loud and kind of weak for its class. Hyundai has it beat and is justified in the v6 sedan shootout. The fusions only praise is sporting.

Last and not least, the 2007 camry is the motortrend car of the year, the accord is a 10 best for many years (Didn't win in 1992,1993,1996,& 1997) including this year. Ford is in last in this race. Heck, the saturn aura is in the top 2 for car of the year tying with the camry. IMO the fusion is refreshing for ford but still lags behind its competiors.

-Cj :shades:

ontop

Value is what I look for and In my opinion Toyota/Honda have lost it. They are riding a wave of past history. Consumers are slowly finding this out, it will take time.

Are you really trying to tell us that, in the face of booming sales and acceptance of Toyotas and Hondas, that Ford has consumers excited about their cars?

That's a good one. Funny stuff. What a jokester.

Have another drink bro.

kdhspyder

Value is what I look for and In my opinion Toyota/Honda have lost it. They are riding a wave of past history. Consumers are slowly finding this out, it will take time. I already have..

Again you're talking about your personal value standards.

As to 'Consumers are slowly finding this out..' this seems to be your wish but in fact the opposite is happening - in spades. Not only are the Camry and Accord acquiring more and more buyers ( not fewer as you hope ) but now the Corolla and Civic (!!!) are selling at prices that you feel are good value for your midsized vehicle. And these two compact vehicles are increasing their volumes as well.

Just maybe your view of what is 'value' is off center from the rest of the public.

tinatina

I did not realize I "thrashed" HELOC Loans. Laughable at best and inaccurate at worst. The poster said, "HELOCs are a great product, as long as the bulk of your mortgage financing (your first mortgage) is in a fixed rate, amortizing loan."

They are fine when interest rates are declining, and not so good when interest rates are rising as they have in the last two years. I never "thrashed" this loan. I also stated that an increase in the rate for the adjustable first mortgage loans and these HELOCs (secondary loans) have helped increase foreclosure and defaults. NY Times and marketwatch.com support these statements and there are tons of recent articles on the subject. Finally, whether to get one or not is solely up to an individual's specific situation and tax bracket. So, like I told the person about looking into refinancing - they may look into this type of product or refinance outright. Not saying anyone should or should not - but merely look into it. Much like as we shop for a mid size car - test drive several, read whatever articles that you like, read these threads, and ask neigbors and friends about why they made their selections.

There's no point in mentioning this again since its really off topic and was not even my original comment that I made. Its time to get back to talking about the mid size cars. Can we see some real world "noise level" tests between those cars (not directed at you) and more details as to what engines we are making the noises comparisons to?

explorerx4

well, i guess ford is becoming the 'counter culture' brand
in my neighborhood.
i always wanted to have an excuse to be a 'hippee'. oops, they drive toyotas.

elroy5

Value is what I look for and In my opinion Toyota/Honda have lost it.

It seems your idea of "value" is not the same as most. Most people don't think "low price" alone, means value.

They are riding a wave of past history.

The PRESENT and FUTURE, are looking pretty good too. The Fusion is at least 5 years behind Camry and Accord in Quality and Refinement. Even if reliability is a "non factor", as you say.

meateater

I think it should be restated that the Accord is the last of the sedans in this comparo to be updated. A 5 year old design still acknowledged as one of the best ever, and head and shoulders above a car (Fusion) that's a year old.

The impact the 08 Accord will have on this segment will be HUGE. Can't wait to see it. 9 more months..........

backy

The Mazda6 was also last redesigned for the 2003 MY, like the Accord, so we should be seeing a new 6 for 2008 MY also. The 6 is also holding up well for a nearly five-year-old design.

thegraduate

Taurus is every bit as reliable as an Accord. Honda folks hate to hear it, but its true!

If you can't speak without putting words in our mouths and speaking for Honda owners (which is getting mighty old and seems very childish) then we'd appreciate it if you wouldn't speak at all. Quit pretending like all Honda owners hate Ford owners, or pretending like all Honda owners are the same, because you are certainly making it seem like you hate Honda owners with your behavior. If you are bitter with American Honda, Honda dealerships, Honda lawn mowers, or Honda owners, that's fine, but it should be left at the login page, and not posted in here. It is unappreciated, and most-certainly uncalled for.

thegraduate

Value is what I look for and In my opinion Toyota/Honda have lost it. They are riding a wave of past history. Consumers are slowly finding this out, it will take time. I already have..

Did it ever cross your ego, I mean mind that other people may share ever-so slightly different ideas of VALUE? You seem to think it is features for the dollar. If that is true, why didn't you get a Sonata for a lot less than you could've gotten your Fusion for, with more safety features, more horsepower, and better MPG? Gee, maybe you place value on other things than just feature per dollar, like people who pass on Hyundai AND Ford.

You know, people like backy always manage to state their own case without forcing it on others, or belittling people because of their decisions... I like that.