Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

captain2

reference that C&D RT I linked on the 05 500, same drivetrain and noted to have a tranny 'that didn't seem to know what gear to be in.' Learning, adaptive trannies routed thru computers, along with throttle and brake controls all become necessary as part of this intregrated 'safety' system otherwise known as VSC/TRAC. Learn to live with it folks - it will get worse before it gets better. And given the governmental 'mandate' for systems like this, and 'Detroit's' rather checkered past on new technologies and inabilities to fund enough R&D, it seems logical that these mfgrs. will have more trouble finding 'solutions' to some of the drivability issues that these systems create.

stevesjc3272

In other words, Ford could figure it out but Honda and Toyota can't?

zzzoom6

I just found that when I pile things into my sedan or my wagon, I end up damaging the item or the car.

I had the same problem with my last wagon...I always had to find "spacers" to fill areas around what I was carrying so that things wouldn't bang around when driving. but the mazda 6 has a pretty ingenious organizer (optional costs about $120) behind the back seats that can collapse flat when it's not in use. inside the organizer are up to four compartments about the size of a couple 2 liters wide and the length of a 2 liter bottle and high enough to have 4 2 liters in each section (these areas can be enlarged to accomodate larger objects). plus, there are tie down hooks in the hatch area (probably not very strong, but enough to keep something still when driving sensibly. pretty well designed, I think. these came in handy when I took my lawnmower in for service last spring: a couple strings to each wheel and it didn't bang around at all. and since the cargo mat is easily removed, just took a hose to it to rinse off the grass clippings and all was fine again.

kdhspyder

It appears that the incidence of this hesitation is quite variable from vehicle to vehicle to driver to driver.

An alternate opinion of the Outlook's DBW tranny. In this one the reviewer says Ford got it wrong and GM got it right. :surprise: Outlook review

Excerpt:
The new six-speed automatic transmission, was smooth and up to changing gears when the ride required. This is the transmission GM co-developed with Ford. Note to Ford: You may want to poach the engineers who programmed the software, because GM's is better than the version you have in your new vehicles. The Outlook has been tested to reach 60 mph in 8.2 seconds and a quarter-mile time of 16.6 seconds at 84.5 mph.

It sure seems like the DBW is very driver-sensitive. This is probably what people are finding in the Avalons and Camrys.

akirby

It's also possible they're confusing the Aisin 6 speed that's in the Fusion/Milan/MKZ with the 6F unit. The 6F unit is only available in the Edge and MKX which just arrived. And there were no complaints about the Edge or MKX transmissions - in fact there was a lot of praise for the tranny in those reviews.

lilengineerboy

I guess you don't have small children and need to transport playpens, strollers, etc... on a regular basis! Trunks are a pain for all that, and nothing beats being able to reach back over the seats to get what you need on the road.

I was thinking of my car versuse the family car. Even with the family vehicle, I still would be less inclined to put gardening stuff, furnture, engines and car parts inside it vs towing behind it. The Pack-n-Play can go in the wagon.

captain2

As an owner of an 05 Avalon, I can testify to your comments - there is a tendency in the 5 speeds for the trsnny to hold on to higher gears when coasting down from a higher speed (Programming for FE?) - requiring a multiple gear downshift (and some hunting/'hesitation') on firm reapplication of throttle. Similar behavior has been noted on the 5 speed Camrys. How it behaves does have something to do with driving styles (IT doesn't seem to like all-on/all-off driving, and it even makes a difference how you press the accelerator. Is it bothersome - nope, simply because I have learned how IT wants me to drive the car. I would contend that many, many of the cars currently available have transmissions that act strangely, (Subarus, Fords, and VWs all have been noted for it), it is a software issue that is also related to FE, emissions, torque steer reduction and NOT a transmssions issue in the normal sense. I would also contend that this 'problem' is way overblown, there are several hundred thousand Camrys and Avalons out there, and I would tell you that 95% of them (or more) wouldn't know what I am talking about simply because their driving style and/or adaptive abilities don't 'encourage' the misbehavior.

bobw3

The difference is that I want to be able to use both of our cars as family cars. And with the exception of car engines, we put all sorts of items in the back (gardening, tile, lumbar, etc). We just throw a blanket in the back to keep it clean. Besides, the milk, juice and cereal from the baby is a lot messier than any trip picking up bags of dirt from the garden store!

Even our Christmas tree we bought went into the back of the Freestyle. We had to fold 1/2 of the 2nd row to get it to fit. Yes we had to vacuum out the pine needles, but the car needed a good vacuum anyway, and now the inside smells nice! Plus we weren't even planning on buying the tree at the time, but on the spur of the moment drove by a place and bought one.

jipster

Any thoughts on which has the best blend of comfort and performance? I'm thinking LaCrosse most comfort and the Mazda6 the best performance, with the Altima the best combination of the two. Not buying immediately, but starting to think about it.

Current ride a Buick Regal LS ...past ride a Nissan Altima.

thegraduate

When I say weirdos I refer to the people who think Honyota can do no wrong and that CamCords are better cars, "just because they are."

I hear ya on that one. If you can't come up with a reason that you paid more for a car over another one, you overpaid. If you had a reason for buying it, however, (maybe you didn't like a certain design, or maybe you really liked the more expensive car a lot more) then you have a valid case; one that cannot be questioned (since beauty is perception, and perception is reality for each individual).

If you don't care about things like designs, engines, room, and economy, buy the cheapest thing out there! If you do, buy the least expensive things that meets the best compromise that you and your wallet are willing to make.

Me? I wanted the best interior I could get, but could care less about a 250 horsepower engine. My car? A 4-cylinder Accord EX - premium interior trim, great gas mileage, and plenty of power for me. It was the best compromise I made when judging its competitors. For me to say your compromise was wrong, or for someone to say mine is wrong, is plain idiocy (you weren't doing this stevesjc3272, I'm just stating a point to all). Did I get similar features on a car costing less? Sure I did. But there is more to a car than the sum of its parts. Some people do not seem to understand that.

louiswei

Buick LaCrosse, Nissan Altima and Mazda6

If you are limited to the above 3 then yes, I'd agree that Altima has the best blend of comfort and performance. However, I personally think that out of the whole midsize sedan class, Honda Accord would be the best combination of the two.

backy

Or maybe the Camry XLE V6? More powerful than the Accord, and quite luxurious. Accord has crisper handling, however (could go with the Camry SE). Sonata Limited would be another option if Santa can't afford the Camry XLE V6 this year.

thegraduate

Or maybe the Camry XLE V6? More powerful than the Accord, and quite luxurious. Accord has crisper handling, however (could go with the Camry SE).

The Camry is a good $3,000 or so more than the like-optioned Accord out in the marketplace (the Accord is getting old, and can be bargained way down), while what you say is still true. The Camry would be a great choice if your want the ultimate family cushy cruiser with the most advanced features. Unforutnately, you pay for that privilege. What you get in return, however, is practically a Lexus badged as a Toyota, for $8k less.

zzzoom6

I find that the mazda6 is the best blend of comfort and performance, and keep in mind, as a sales rep, I have to drive clients around from time to time. the last thing I want to introduce during business time is unpleasantness and a rough car could distract a customer from what I am trying to say. so when I want to drive mellow, I can. when I want to have some fun, zoom zoom is just a shift away.

in comparison to your altima (which was on my short list of cars that I was considering buying a year ago), I think you'll find the mazda's suspension a bit more compliant (seems to have longer travel and less harsh impacts) than the altima, yet there is a lot less body lean than the altima. braking is a little better in the mazda, but off the line acceleration is not as good as the nissan's v-6. steering feel is excellent in this class of cars. if I remember correctly, the 6 has a bit more bolstering on the side of the seats to help keep you in place when cornering hard. the black interior is a bit stark and the all red lights on the console and gauges are like it's trying to be too dramatic and trying too hard to be sporty, if that makes sense. but again, that's something you'll have to judge. but getting a fully loaded v-6 for around 20k would be pretty easy to get.

as an alternative, I would suggest trying out the legacy if back seat space is not a priority. the gt is a blast to drive and with awd, grip is hardly ever absent. suspension is a tad soft with a bit too much body lean, but the aftermarket has solutions that make it a very good handling car. brakes, though, are not great. certainly adequate, but not ideal. steering feel was very good, almost as good as the 6, and a little better than the accord. I like the understated look that the legacy has, but that's kind of a personal thing. another car I'd consider would be the manual tranny accord. sweet engine and transimission. and probably the best seats in the category. but a bit too common and generic for my tastes. plus no choice in a wagon or hatchback in the accord.

scape2

I am now answering the question of why I decided not to buy a Sonata.
1. Styling was not to my liking. The Fusion offered more standout styling.
2. Handling - in my opinion the Fusion handles better than the Sonata. Even better than the Accord.

scape2

my First Saturn Aura today. Looks a lot like a Honda Accord from the front and side to me. I almost thought it was an Accord until I took a closer look.. Brand spankin new, dealer plates on still. In fact looked like the person was doing a test drive..

louiswei

Can one say..."Acura TL rip-off"?

Look at the arrow-head front grille, rear door window and the C-pillar. I've got to admit that this is definitely light years ahead of the current design but where is GM's own personality? Looks like GM is following Hyundai's foot step and that's in order to beat the Japanese, let's first be the Japanese...

elroy5

I keep seeing posts about avoiding first year models of a redesigned car. I have an 03 EX V6 Accord sedan (first year of the current generation). I am pleased to report that I have had none of the problems with my car (tranny, DBW, radio display). Yes, they did have a recall on the transmission, but the only difference between the 03 trannys and 05 trannys is the recall was done at the factory, instead of by the dealer. Honda did not change the transmissions, and are probably still using the same trannys in the 07 models. The whole "avoid first year models" thing is overblown.

elroy5

This supposed to be the new Malibu?

louiswei

This supposed to be the new Malibu?

Yes, indeedy...

Surprised huh? Me too.

jipster

Thanks for the comments all. I generally like staying with a manufacturer that I've had past success with,reliability wise. But, at this point I probably won't rule anything out. I've enjoy reading everyones comments in this discussion since I discovered it a while back.

elroy5

Doesn't look much different from the Aura. The only thing I don't particularly like about my Accord is the rather large headlights (I think the TSX headlights look better). The Aura/Malibu headlights look even bigger. Everyone has their own idea of what looks good though. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder, as it were.

backy

I think GM's identity stands out pretty clearly in the HHR/Aura-like front end. To me it looks nothing like a TL. Maybe it looks better in person, but from the pics I've seen I don't like the grille at all. It makes the front look too big. I don't like big, blunt front ends on sedans, unless it's a classic like a Rolls. My thought is that it's not Honda that GM is mimicking here, it's Chrysler, which brought us the COTY and strong-selling 300.

goodegg

What's an arrow head front grill?

Yea - much better looking than the current Bu. There's nothing wrong with going with the flow along with the Japanese designers. GM's Aura/Malibu looks a whole lot better to me than a Sonata. Now there's a rough grill.

m1miata

Aura = Large shoes to fill, as names go. Reality, things are looking a bit brighter for Saturn, but to say an aura of light surrounds this car would be a stretch. More like in its price range, this is the best deal going in the GM line for a mid-sized FWD car. Call this a better Saturn for the 21st Century, or the ABC car, as GM now loves the alphabet soup names. The ABC, for A Better Car. An Aura is a bit of a stretch.
-Loren

m1miata

Best Malibu was the Malibu of 1968 or 69 SS. Current bland FWD cars are not worthy of the nameplate.
-Loren

chevy598

Interior pictures look nice. I think it looks better on the inside. GM has came a long way on interiors the last 4 years.

lilengineerboy

Yeah, there is a seat cover thing that goes over the back seat which is like a denim almost, and the floor has plastic over it.
I agree that there is an advantage to use both cars as family vehicles, which is why I am in here tracking mid-sized sedans instead of 2 door coupes and the like. For me personally, don't think both cars need to be able to support full on cross country endeavors, and would rather have something small and fun. In a pinch, I can throw the Yakima on the roof and cargo case.

thegraduate

I am now answering the question of why I decided not to buy a Sonata.
1. Styling was not to my liking. The Fusion offered more standout styling.
2. Handling - in my opinion the Fusion handles better than the Sonata. Even better than the Accord.

Yet, when I list the reasons for buying my Accord (I preferred the interior layout/style/finish, good blend of comfort and handling for my tastes), I couldn't see past the "image" as you say Honda owners do? It is ok that you paid to get what vehicle made you happy ($23k vs. a sub-$20k Hyundai), but the fact that I paid more is not? You have implied this over and over and over, about how Honda and Toyota buyers wasted their money and couldn't see past this "image" that the media has beat into our heads. But when you spend more to get what you want, it is ok. :confuse:

How can it be both ways?

ontop

Let it go grad. The Fusioners have to feel justified for buying a Ford. I don't see ever having to explain why you bought an Accord, which may be the best all-around car on the planet.

thegraduate

It isn't that I mind explaining why I bought one, the matter of it all is that scape is being hippocritical about spending more for a car that makes you happy, when he/she did it themselves. I just can't figure out what is going through their head!

bobw3

For me personally, don't think both cars need to be able to support full on cross country endeavors, and would rather have something small and fun

Me too...which is why I think compact 5 doors/hatches are the best option for something small, fun and practical. But I'm off-topic since this is a sedan forum...bye

stevesjc3272

"Let it go grad. The Fusioners have to feel justified for buying a Ford. I don't see ever having to explain why you bought an Accord, which may be the best all-around car on the planet."

That's pretty funny! I see more people dreaming up justifications for their Accord/Camry purchases than Fusion purchases. That cognitive dissonance must really kick in every time a Fusion passes you by, eh?

I get all the "justification" I need every time I drive my Fusion...especially as I drive past a hideous Cam :lemon: cord.

jeffyscott

Where are you coming up with a $3k price difference between Fusion and Sonata? Every time I look at prices of comparable models, the Fusion and Sonata selling prices look to be about the same.

mz6greyghost

Let it go grad. The Fusioners have to feel justified for buying a Ford.

They don't have to "feel justified" about buying a Ford, and they don't need to prove ANYTHING. They made a decision to buy a car that fits THEIR needs, and it happens to be the Fusion. Deal with it.

I don't see ever having to explain why you bought an Accord, which may be the best all-around car on the planet.

That's your opinion, and you're entitled to it. Fusion owners may think that about their car as well. What's the big deal?

chevy598

Where is the Impala in this debate. It is the 3rd best selling car in America, and the new ones get rave reviews. The "flip and fold" rear seat is one of the most innovative options in the mid size segment.

bobw3

what's the purpose of a flip and fold rear seat in a sedan?

goodegg

That's your opinion

There's an astute observation.

Of course these are all opinions of their authors. I agree the Accord is one of the best cars out there, and is much better than an unproven Fusion. Pretty good for a 5 year old design. The 08 update will only widen the gap.

louiswei

Nobody NEEDS to justify why she/he bought the car whether it's the Fusion, Accord, Camry or Sonata. However, it's human nature that we like to think that we are the one whom made the right choice and other people whom don't think like us is wrong. I really don't think there is a wrong choice of buying a midsize sedan and since there are so many choices now, everyone can get whatever he/she wants.

However, it is absurb for someone to think that people whom bought Camry/Accord are blinded by "image". Just because someone who is willing to pay more to get what he/she desired doesn't mean that it's wasting money. On the other hand, I also don't think that people whom bought Fusion/Sonata cheaped out. If they can't see the reason why Camry/Accord worth the extra bucks then there is no point for them to buy one.

At the end, we all get what we want and should be glad that we have so many midsize sedan to choose from now a day. So can we go back to talk about cars?

Come one, guys, share your thoughts about the new 2008 Malibu. I still think it looks like a TL.

chevy598

If you ever owned a pet with toe nails or need to put something in backseat that is nasty the "flip & fold" is awesome. My rotty has tore every backseat I have ever put him in. Those "flip & fold" seats are a pet owners dream, and you're going to start seeing them on competitors models. They turn your back seat into a trunk and their easy to work with no drop in seat comfort.

bobw3

That's a good idea. Sort of like the fold up rear seats in my Fit.

chevy598

If your a pet owner that would put the Fit at the top of my list of subcompacts regardless of options/refinement. Another nice thing about "flip & fold" is not having to have the trunk exposed and listen to road noise coming from the back. You get a hard plastic floor without having your seat backs down.

imidazol97

>... it is absurd for someone to think that people whom bought Camry/Accord are blinded by "image".

Perhaps it's the attitude of a small number that they bought a Honda or Toyota and have the most wonderful and perfect car in the world that comes through in posts and that's based on past images in certain evaluations that turns off other people especially in light of other indictors about quality and suitability.

Back to regularly scheduled program.

The Malibu front looks better than the Camry front which seems manipulated from the past style to look like a 300? or rear like a BMR higher line trunk-on-trunk style. It's going to depend on the whole car look. The Aura is nicely done. But of course the same people who say GM should make cars look more like their competition now criticize that the car looks more like the competition...

akirby

This is all rather silly (and yes, I'm guilty here too). We're all trying to justify our vehicle purchases to folks who bought a different vehicle, which leads to nothing but arguments.

My main point with the Fusion was to counter the folks who are trying to say that there are objective reasons not to buy one (noisy engine, poor reliability, etc.) which simply aren't true.

The bottom line between all these midsize sedans today is that there are significant styling, price and feature differences which will determine which vehicle a particular person favors. 90% of the reasons why people buy one versus the other are subjective (value, styling, ride quality, dealer experience, etc.).

I think it would be much more helpful to keep the discussion to the differences in features, prices and options rather than trying to prove that one car is better than another.

thegraduate

Where are you coming up with a $3k price difference between Fusion and Sonata?

Top of the Line V6 Sonatas, so I hear, go for around $18-19k last I saw on the prices paid boards. Scape paid $22-23k for his Fusion. It has been a long time since I saw either of those prices, so there is quite a possibility I am mistaken, and if that is true, I certainly apoligize. I do remember V6 Sonatas for $18.5k though - just not sure when.

jeffyscott

I am just looking at current invoice price, less rebates. I assume both cars could be bought at about that price...I could be wrong too, if there are hidden incentives or something. Based on invoice minus rebates, the top of the line Sonata would be above the figure you are giving.

I don't know if Scape got 0% for 3 years, or something. If so, then I would factor that in to get the "real cost" one way or another.

thegraduate

Yeah - I was just going by stories I read on here and in the prices paid forum. I think he did get zero financing, which is great. I still think the Sonata is the cheapest on the market at the moment, even if the $18.5k figure was last year. I've read stories of people buying base Sonatas for something between $14k and $15k.

My point, was that people sometimes pay more to get what they want. It does not make them suckers. The sucker is someone who buys a vehicle that they didn't want in the first place, regardless of the price.

captain2

I doubt very seriously that the Impala (or any "US" brand) breaks the top 10 in REAL car sales - discounting those those vehicles 'given' to rental car cos. and/or bid to corporate/municipal fleets. But, otherwise, it is too big a car (large car) for this category - rave reviews? - how about 'one trick pony' the review in the 05 COY issue - talking, of course, about the V8... Had really nothing good to say about it, other than you could 'fight' the steering wheel, in exchange for some good power and substandard FE.

bobw3

What's the problem with manufacturers selling cars to rental fleets? Don't they make a profit doing that? Are they giving Hertz the cars?

louiswei

What's the problem with manufacturers selling cars to rental fleets? Don't they make a profit doing that?

1. Why do you think that GM and Ford are cutting down their fleet sale numbers?

2. Why do you think that Ford is closing the Taurus production line which is only for fleet sales over the last couple years?

3. Why do you think that Honda and Toyota are trying to keep their fleet sales in the minimum?