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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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I'm interested to see how the new 08Mazda6 will look.
Now, take this post. Take everywhere Honda is and put Ford and live by your own words.. nuff said..
Your feelings are illustrative of what makes the world go around. I personally don't believe the Fusion goes head to head with the Accord or Camry and comes out equal or better. I would rather shell out the extra $$$ for a vehicle that I believe has better fit and finish and will serve me better and that I will feel more comfortable owning. If you take out Ford and substitute Sonata, it would be the same thing.
I don't think so. I think the fusion, milan, or mazda6 sell for comparable prices to the Sonata. So a straight-up comparison is a lot easier to do. If I objectively conclude that Fusion is better than Sonata, then it is unlikely to make sense for me to buy the Sonata...since prices are essentially the same.
Currently, it looks like a comparable Accord is $2000-3000 more than these others...based on invoice price minus rebates. I assume the Camry is priced similarly to Accord. These are significant premiums people are paying for these cars. I could conclude that the Accord is better than the Fusion, yet still logically buy the Fusion because I'd like to do something else with the extra $2000-3000.
Or alternatively, as someone pointed out, one can probably look at a comparably equipped Civic or Corolla for the same price as those other midsizes. Then you would have to decide if going a whole class size smaller is worth it to get the Honda or Toyota.
These are more difficult comparisons to do.
My personal opinion is that most buyers are paying more for Honda and Toyota based almost entirely on the "reliability" factor. I don't think most are paying up because of the reasons that folks on here give. And I don't mean that the posters here are misrepresenting their reasons, I just mean that they are not typical average buyers.
If he/she wanted AWD, the choices are limited. Sometimes you have to settle for what you can get.
In the case of value, why buy a 258hp mercedes benz c class for almost 40k when you can have a 280hp passat, 260hp camry, 244+ accord ect. All these cars are bigger, roomier, mostly more fuel efficient, more fun to drive, more powerful, and cheaper than the c class. The 3series(306hp), cts(midsize), tl(midsize), and a couple others are exceptions to this rule.
A fully loaded camry/accord(including hybrid) are about 35k max and about the price of a 328i with leather, c280(slow) just starting off.
Its a buyers market now so enjoy it while its good. Next we'll be comparing that 320hp accord v8 to that 400hp altima or w8/v10tdi passat! Sounds unreal but thats where the market is heading. I think honda may stop (as shown by CR-V) soon in terms of power. Honda may just decide to go fuel efficient and sporty but not overly fast(Think Acura Tsx, RSX, and honda s2000)
Sadly, i lost my train of thought and moral of the story
-Cj
Maybe the fact the guy worked for Ford had something to do with it.
If I'd buy Detroit mid size sedan it certainly wouldn't be a Fusion. More like an Impala or an Aura.
But to buy a Fusion over a Camry or Accord? Ouch.
As for someone getting 18" wheels, I say to each his own -- what next wagon wheels. Want really big wheels, take a walk through a car museum some day. I say use what the car was designed around, or get optional wheels which are lighter in the same diameter. Low profile tires will get you a harder riding car, with the possibility of early damage to the rims - oh that is so good.
-Loren
You may want to hang in there 9 more months for the 08 Accord, sure to be a hit.
But I can understand wanting to bail out of a Taurus now. Mine was a disaster and was most likely my last Ford since it left me with a real bad taste in my mouth.
Is style the only consideration, when you are car shopping? Accord and Camry buyers are looking for much more than looks. They are looking for the latest technology available, and the total package (under the wrapper). Would you believe some people are planning to buy the new 08 Accord, when it does come out, without knowing what it will look like. They trust Honda to make a great car, and aren't concerned with the exterior looks.
-Cj :confuse:
-Loren
you mention that toyota has had "issues" with their trannies... has this been pretty common? I suppose it's understandable that in general new products will have some unanticipated issues that don't get worked out until after the car is in production, but I think some companies do a better job working out the details first. although I'm typically not a huge ford fan, it's good to see that the fusion has been shown to be a reliable car.
lol... ok, but we both have space behind the back seat. so perhaps you can tell me why the space behind your back seat that you call a "trunk" is better than the space behind my backseat in my "hatchback."
maybe you'll say that it's more secure since you can't see in it? well that's what the removeable hatch cover is for. you wouldn't be able to see what I have in my hatch either. and if someone can break into your car, they are just a tug of a lever away from getting access to your "trunk".
the benefits of a wagon or hatch are pretty obvious without significant drawbacks. they are heavier and have more road noise, but not to the point where they slow the car a lot or make it too loud.
someone mentioned that they could just get a hitch and tow something or I could just get an SUV. the nice thing about wagons and hatchbacks is that many times I don't need to drive a clumsy, top heavy SUV and don't have to drive somewhere so I can go back to where it is I was so that I can fit something into it.
really that's part of the beauty of the mazda6 hatchback: most people don't have a clue that it has much more stowing capability than a simple sedan, but still has the attractive lines of a sedan. and unlike your average SUV or average midsize sedan for that matter, the mazda6 is fun to drive.
a) it's TSB'd to ameliorate the issue
b) the vehicle adapts to the driver
c) the driver adapts to the vehicle
d) all of the above.
Toyota, Lexus, Honda, Acura, GM all seem to experience this somewhat.
The reference to towing was separate from the SUV reference. I just found that when I pile things into my sedan or my wagon, I end up damaging the item or the car. I typically find that renting a trailer and packing the item well cuts down on that considerably. This has been true for furniture hauling, gardening needs, moving around engines or other stuff I don't want in my car.
I was discounting hatchbacks, my first couch was brought home in a Saab 9000. I have just found when moving things around, I just as soon keep it out of the car.
First- let me say I am not advocating to buy a C class I just want to try and take a stab at answering your question.
A 2007 C 230 (201hp) can be had for under 30k. It would be severely underpowered to a V6 Accord, Camry or Passat. However, the fact that the C 230 is RWD mated w/ a manual tranny would IMHO be more fun to drive than any of the other 3 mentioned above. They are all FWD and nose heavy. Of course it has its luxury nameplate and would not be as common as a Camry or an Accord.
I guess you don't have small children and need to transport playpens, strollers, etc... on a regular basis! Trunks are a pain for all that, and nothing beats being able to reach back over the seats to get what you need on the road.
I agree. I just test drove a 4 cyl automatic Mazda6 again recently. It has a mere 156 HP or so. I really can not see how anyone would feel they need more power than that. Similarly, my wife has the 5 cyl, 150 HP Jetta....which while smaller, is similar in weight to these mid-sizes. In 1.5 years, we sure have never felt the need or desire for more power.
If this is the attitude of dealers or sales personnel, or of some manufacturers with their new DBW technology, it's time the masses looked elsewhere for a car. A car is supposed to be "an extension of the driver." Adapt to the car?? Frankly, I think that's a cop out underscoring the fact that there is a design and/or engineering problem. The age old adage of reverse customer service - place the onus on the customer rather than the product.
I have a domestic product that uses a learning transmission, and a DBW throttle, and I've never had to adapt to the vehicle's characteristics. Rather, it's vice versa - which is how it's supposed to be.
If this is what new technology brings us, it's time to take a few steps back in time, as older cars never had this problem, and still provided excellent MPG and reliability.
You're spot on with that reply. If the same problem were occuring in GM products, the continual complaining everywhere in discussions and media would be endless. But Toyo especially has been given a pass on this other than from a few and they get slammed in the specific groups here as not really owning a Toyo or posting multiple times under different names.
The cars should be an extension of the driver.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
You are right this is a valid point and the old mechanical linkages that everyone learned - and became used to driving - are just that OLD and relatively inefficient and heavy.
The new DBW vehicles from all makers are different animals and the installation throughout the products lines will take some getting used to. It may also take some programming changes on the part of the manufacturers as well. But the line has been passed and there's no going back. The interface just needs to be less intrusive.
It could be a product by product issue also. See the link below about GM's new Saturn Outlook crossover. Substitute the word Camry for Outlook and it could be a review about the DBW in the new '07 Camry.
Saturn Outlook Review
Snippet: ( bold text added for emphasis )
Sometimes transmissions hesitate before downshifting into a passing gear, but they don't always lose momentum before doing so. This is acceptable, especially if the delay is brief — or at least if it's consistent and predictable enough that you can adapt to it. When you nail the pedal in the Outlook, on the other hand, it feels as though the transmission releases the current gear and takes too long to engage the passing gear. While this indecision and hunting goes on, the car bogs down a bit; you hear the engine rev, and then it lurches forward. For what seems like a second or more, there's a lot of windup but not enough pitch.
Helloooo...
They are happening in the new GM products. See review above. Don't you feel a bit foolish now
Now surprisingly with the same 6 speed DBW tranny developed with Ford the reviews note that it is not present in the Ford Edge!!
Bring yourself up to date. This is the new world of the electronic vehicle. It will be different and it will take some getting used to in the driving.
This is why they make minivans.
And who uses a playpen? A cage for your kid?
I don't believe anyone ever had to "learn" how to drive a car with a mechanical-linkage throttle system. It just worked! Heavy!! A cable or throttle-shaft linkage weighs almost nothing - maybe a pound or two at most, including all of the necessary brackets, bolts, etc. There is nothing wrong with something that is tried and true, and also old. There is a lot to be said of the KISS theory of design (Keep It Simple Stupid). Why use an overly complex system for throttle control, when a mechanical system can also provide data point inputs to a ECM? That's why they have A/D converters for use with CPU's. A mechanical throttle can provide as many analog data points to the Analog-to-Digital Converter as does a DBW system.
I would rather relay on a mechanical linkage, rather than thousands of lines of C++ code burned into an EEPROM. Anyone who has ever written code, knows software is never finished or complete.
No matter the manufacturer, asking customers to learn how to drive their DBW systems is sheer arrogance.
So, is THIS the latest excuse Honyota weirdos have for cars that are faulty?
My 2006 Fusion has DBW, a 6-speed automatic, and NONE of the DBW problems that 2007 Camry owners are pissed off about.
Here we go again.
A person who has no reason to spend the extra $2-$4,000 to justify owning a Honda or Toyota product for pure image reasons.
So, other than the badge, the cars are identical, right? That's what you imply with that statement.
You paid more, just deal with it.. did you get more?
In features/power vs what you got? Probably not. Once again, if we were talking about pure features, we could bring up the question you refuse to answer: why didn't you get a Sonata instead of paying $5,000 more for a Fusion? You keep dodging this question.
I'm not sure how you define "huge", but Honda has certainly had some significant problems with first-year models in recent years. Examples are the '99 and '05 Odysseys (rated only average by CR in reliability, quite a departure from other Hondas), the '01 Civic (many problems and recalls, most fixed by '02), the '03 Accord (transmission, brakes, trim etc.), and the '06 Civic (check out the Problems discussions here for details). So there is some risk in buying an all-new Accord, but there is risk in buying any new design.
Doing a 24 month lease... and when that's up I can get an 09 Accord and avoid 1st year glitches.
Thank you for you polite response to my post.
business week review of Outlook
I spent some time in the Outlook discussion looking for transmission links (see, I'm not as biased as you think). I hadn't heard nor read of this before, perhaps because a nonsedan isn't on my buying radar. And in the discussion there's discussion that one writer seemed to harp and harp on it-perhaps the one you cited-and the tranny was still to be tweaked before production by engineering.
The fact you cited that Ford doesn't have the symptoms in the Edge may mean they and GM have an Edge up on the Toyota world of ES, Avalon, and Camry.
I'll take the tranny that has the torque in the motor and reacts when I step on it with time out to shift down if needed.
2014 Malibu 2LT, 2015 Cruze 2LT,
Name calling accomplishes nothing, except to end up having you put on the 'IGNORE' list.
Did you notice that the same phenomenon is in the Saturn Outlook? Exact same phenomenon.
Did you notice that I said that Ford did not have it in the Edge?
This might very well be the case that Ford has an internal improvement that GM and Toyota/Lexus have not yet.
In fairness ( OT ) kudo's to GM for its launch of the Outlook and Acadia on the new platform which puts these vehicles alone in their class. They are true 7/8 passenger vehicles that handle much better than b-o-f siblings with better fuel economy. GM is alone in this subsegment ( bigger than a Highlander/Pilot and smaller than a Sequoia/Tahoe ) for the foreseeable future. Double kudo's, when they hit the road, for the range of hybrid vehicles it plans to bring to market. This is good for us all.
And who uses a playpen? A cage for your kid?
I don't think you need a giant minivan to transport 2 kids, but again, that's why the hatchback/station wagon configuration are better than sedans.
As far as the playpen, it's great for traveling and hotels to use as a bed at night and someplace safe to put our daughter instead of wandering around the hotel room, relatives house, etc.
There is no question in that a hatchback/wagon/5-door or whatever you want to call it version of a car is much more useful that the sedan version. I can put more stuff in the back of my Honda Fit than in a Camry or Accord by far, and more oddly shaped items too.
To me, a sedan just wastes space and I would never buy one. It makes the car more versatile as either the primary or secondary vehicle. But I guess if in your experience you don't fill up your trunk, then sedans are fine. I guess my lifestyle requires me to take a lot more stuff on the road.
For example, we're going to Chicago for the weekend to visit relatives and we're taking the Fit because it gets better MPG than our Freestyle. If we only had a sedan as our backup to our Freestyle, then we'd be forced to take the Freestyle because everything wouldn't fit into a sedan's trunk. So for this trip we'll take the versatile Fit. But then we still have the Freestyle for trips to Lowes, long vacations where we really load up the car, and for times in the summer when we're transporting 6 people and stuff. So the Fit is my commuter car as well as our backup car.
Or you could have the Mazda3 5-door vs sedan, Jetta wagon, etc...with Honda & Toyota, you'd have to get the CRV or Highlander to have the wagon version of the Accord/Camry, but I'd much rather have the CRV than Accord and the Highlander than the Camry.
I would rather relay on a mechanical linkage, rather than thousands of lines of C++ code burned into an EEPROM. Anyone who has ever written code, knows software is never finished or complete.
No matter the manufacturer, asking customers to learn how to drive their DBW systems is sheer arrogance.
I hear what you are saying but the time is past for mechanical linkages. You, I, we don't have a choice in the matter except for buying one of the few remaining vehicles that still are not DBW. Soon they will be like MT's... very hard to find. Eventually the DBW's will be perfected so that the interface with the driver is seamless. My 2004 Highlander is DBW and while I know it's there it's not an issue. All the HSD hybrids are DBW and the interface is smooth as silk. The Fords are apparently as well from reports here. The vast majority of '07 Camry's are seamless as well. It's just a small number of owners reporting difficulties.
Ford Freestyle owners would argue that point.
In almost every dimension the Freestyle is larger than the old Highlander but smaller than the Pilot. The Outlook/Acadia is bigger yet and has more room inside. It's a very good design by GM.
Edmunds link
Pilot-Highlander-Freestyle
Now back to our regularly scheduled program. :shades:
Even if there are children in the mix, a kid in a carseat takes about as much space as an adult, so 8 is just a measure of how big. Just like the question about putting an 8'x4' sheet of plywood in the back. Probably doesn't happen too much, but it's more of a measure of size that people can understand easier.