Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

anonymousposts

Actually, they did a test a couple of years ago between an Accord EXV6 6-speed coupe and a MB CLK. Their conclusion was that the MB was the better car but the Accord had 9/10 the goodness at half the price.

stickguy

that pretty much sums up the Accord for many people. Excellent car in many areas, not the "sportiest" but still nice to drive, and ends up scoring a lot higher than expected due to being well-rounded.

I'm trying to think of an analogy with an athlete, someone that doesn't look like physical specimin, and isn't flashy, but ends up being the best player on the field since the can do everything well, and somethings great. Maybe Larry Bird?

03accordman

"Someone needs to write C&D a letter about that poor comparo and send one to MT for naming the Civic COTY too. Edmunds just did a comparo between the so called COTY and the Mazda3. Guess which one trounced the other."

So because you agree with Edmunds; every other reviewer should be castigated????

03accordman

" I remember a guy saying that in Car and Driver a Honda could win, even if it wasn't one of the cars in the comparison."

You do realize that the Accord did NOT win the comparo?? If what you said is true, shouldn't the Accord have won?

I haven't read the atricle yet; so I would post my comments only after I am well aware of what exactly they wrote.

03accordman

"Why don't they just go ahead and compare an Accord to a E55 AMG and give it the crown as well"

At the cost of repeating myself; you do realize the Accord did not WIN the comparo? The Protege won many CD comparisons during its time, even when is was not the fastest out there.

driverdm

I actually remember that comparo between the Accord and the MB CLK. Now if that doesn't tell you something, I don't know what will. C&D will put the Accord up against anything and then say oh the ride, price, and features are great. Come on. Are they serious? What's next an Accord versus a Bentley Flkying Spur and then they say that though the Bentley is faster and has more features, it is far too expensive, the Accord has all the right balance so it is 8/10 of what a Bentley is at less than a quarter of the price. I am overeagerating but you see my point. This Accord madness has too end. The car is a nice famile sedan but it is not anything close to a sports sedan. Honda doesn't bill it as one, they even know better. This comparo just shows all of us how subjective C&D can be. The Mazda wins in almost every objective category and comes in 4th place, how does that work?

driverdm

The Accord beat out cars that it should not have on an objective basis. The Accord in a top line sports sedan comparo beat one of the best products on the market and came very close to winning the comparison. It is like having a college football team in the NFL playoffs, and having them take it to the Superbowl and lose. Is it really a loss?

Perhaps C&D left that it would recieve too many letters and have a dramatic lose of monthly revenue if the Accord came in first. There has been countless rumors of a Honda bias there for years on forums.

The Protege 5 was a lot of car, but I don't think they put it in comparisons with cars that were do significantly out of its league. The Speed went from zero to 60 in 5.4. That is not your average car.

alpha01

If you actually remembered the comparison test between the Accord and CLK, you'd REMEMBER THAT IT WAS IN MOTOR TREND.

So, if your intent is to claim bias and bash Car and Driver, your pathetic argument is rendered futile.

~alpha

driverdm

Hey hey, easy now. Sorry I couldn't remember which one it was from months, maybe years ago. In all actuality, both have been claimed to have a Honda bias as I am sure you well know.

The argument stands, with many posts uttering the same. Do you refute that the MazdaSpeed6 is not a better sports sedan than the Accord? If you agree with that claim than you actually agree with me.

baggs32

So because you agree with Edmunds; every other reviewer should be castigated????

No. But MT claims the new Civic "re-defines" it's segment. How is that possible when there is a better car out there? Since it was in last years COTY group, and lost out to the 300C, we'll have to wait and see.

baggs32

At the price, the Mazda lacked features the others had, thats a fair contention. The only option on the Accord was the NAV; even with this and many other features over the Mazda, it cost $1000 more (for leather, moonroof, power front seats, NAV). Thats quite significant.

Again, I didn't read this so correct me if I'm wrong.

So there was a $30k limit then? The SPEED6 GT has all of the features from the tested Accord minus the NAV but it is priced just over $30k. That would have been a better car to use is what I, and others, have said. It seems they would have been better off using a loaded Mazda6 V6 which would have had everything the Accord had for a lower price. 0-60 would be a joke between the two but the handling would still go to the 6 and they'd have their creature features to boot. The 6 did just get a freshening so it should have met the "newness" requirement. BTW, how did the TSX meet that one?

Sure the Accord had more creature features but it lacks AWD, a lot of ponies, style (subjective of course), and many handling goodies that the SPEED6 has. If they want to compare grocery getters then don't pick the sportiest versions of each vehicle. Of course the SPEED6 isn't going to be the best daily driver. That's why only 5000 of them are going to hit our shores.

It just seems poorly thought out if you ask me. They should be comparing the SPEED6 with other performance oriented models in a performance comparo.

alpha01

Yes, there was a 30K price limit.

How are you sure handling would have still gone to the 6 if the V6 engined 6S was tested? Tires, suspension, and front wheel drive are all very different between the SPEED6 and the 6S. Equipped like the Accord, the Mazda 6S Grand Sport 5 speed Manual costs $29,770. I hardly consider $100 to be a significantly lower sticker.

The TSX was invited to the comparo as a result of 1) Winning the last 30K sport sedan test and 2) the freshening it recieved for 2006 (just as did the Mazda 6).

You would have preferred to see the MazdaSpeed 6 defeated by which "other performance oriented models" The Spec B Legacy?

~alpha

stickguy

The test wasn't supposed to be for thinly designed race cars, but for overall sports/sporty sedans. And the Accord did quite well in the performance tests (speed and handling), other than braking, which has as much to do with the tires as anything else.

So, it finished 2nd since it not only is fast, and decently athletic, but also roomy/comfortable/economical/etc. That is, it did well in the catagories they always rate.

They always run into complaints like this when they compare cars of diffreent types in a test. So, I recommend that you toss out the rankiings, and read the comments and look at the results, and PICK THE ONE THAT BEST FITS YOUR CRITERIA.

If handling is it for you, go that way. Want comfort but plenty of reserve power, another choice. Room? Check. And so on.

You also need to review the write up on the 6. yeah, it was the athlete of the bunch, but also the most high strung. I personally had enough of cars screaming along at 3,500 RPMS at 75 MPH, which is about what the 6 is doing.

Finally, there isn't a "bias" for a certain car (you think Honda spends the most advertising bucks in C&D?), it's just for years Honda tended to make the best (or one of the best) cars in each catagory, so they scored well. And when something else was better, it won (see Mazda test recently).

jrock65

December 2005:

Camry: 33,324
Accord: 26,370
Sonata: 20,853
Altima: 18,448
Fusion: 7,568
Milan: 2,111

alpha01

Also note that Mazda nabbed 2 of the Ten Best Awards this year. Not too shabby, and equal to Honda.

~alpha

alpha01

Thanks for the info, but its an imcomplete picture as we have no idea the breakout of Fleet sales. Historically for their current generations, the Camry has run at 13-14% fleet and the Accord at 3%.

Camry is then 28,659 to individuals
Accord is then 25,579, clearly a much narrower difference.

~alpha

03accordman

"The Accord beat out cars that it should not have on an objective basis. The Accord in a top line sports sedan comparo beat one of the best products on the market and came very close to winning the comparison"

So who decides that the Speed6 is 'one of the best products' on the market? You state it as if it is a fact. Also, are you satisfied that the Jetta won the comparo, thereby beating the Speed6? Are you satisfied the TSX beat the Speed6? If no, why all the hate postings against the Accord?

"The Protege 5 was a lot of car, but I don't think they put it in comparisons with cars that were do significantly out of its league. The Speed went from zero to 60 in 5.4. That is not your average car."

I did not even talk about the 5 or the Speed. The regulat Protege won almost all comparisons it featured in, in CD.

03accordman

"No. But MT claims the new Civic "re-defines" it's segment. How is that possible when there is a better car out there?"

Better car according to who? You? Again a statement made as if it is a fact.

MT feels the Civic redefines the segment; Edmunds feels the MZ3 is a much better car. Choose what you want.

baggs32

How are you sure handling would have still gone to the 6 if the V6 engined 6S was tested?

Because previous tests have shown that the base 6 handles better than the Accord. Not by as much but it still wins. Better skidpad, better slalom, and better braking. Unless Honda re-tuned the suspension, tires and brakes for '06 I don't see how anything will have changed.

Equipped like the Accord, the Mazda 6S Grand Sport 5 speed Manual costs $29,770. I hardly consider $100 to be a significantly lower sticker.

Hmmm, last time I built a loaded 6 it was under $28k. That was before NAV and some other things were offered though so I'll take your word for it. However, the incentives on the 6 will make a big difference on the bottom line.

03accordman

ooh, that hurts. So where is that 'best midsize sports sedan, the Mazda6' in that sales chart? Are they selling les than the Fusion already even though they are giving it away?

stickguy

I was actually more surprised (and if you read the write up, so was C&D) that the Accord beat the TSX. Really all depends on the catagories used.

Look at it this way (I love analogies). The Accord was an all-around baseball player, good speed, hits some homers, does all the little things well, puts up good (if not great) numbers in all catagoires, and good defense to boot. Lets call him Carlos Beltran.

The Speed6 (in the context of this test) was Manny Ramirez. Gaudy power numbers, but falls short in many other areas, and harder to live with.

So, depends on what you want. The big stick, or the all around player.

That's the beauty of the current car market. Pretty much something for everyone.

ctalk

anyone has not read the comparison:

Click here

baggs32

Better car according to who? You? Again a statement made as if it is a fact.

No again. It's my opinion and I also said this:

Since it was in last years COTY group, and lost out to the 300C, we'll have to wait and see.

If I meant to state a fact I wouldn't have to "wait and see" would I? :P

If/when MT compares the Mazda3 to the Civic, which it most likely will down the road, I'll be very interested to see what they have to say about them when compared at the same time.

MT did say several times in various articles that the 3 was the new standard in the segment. I have to question their logic in giving the Civic an award for "re-defining" the segment when it brought nothing new to the table and doesn't even beat the 3 in anything but fuel economy.

alpha01

Actually, Honda *DID* modify the suspension, and tires of the V6 models for 2006, AND, they added one of the industry's most well calibrated stability control systems... as standard.

~alpha

03accordman

Below is what you said that I pointed out as a statement made as if fact:

"No. But MT claims the new Civic "re-defines" it's segment. How is that possible when there is a better car out there?"

alpha01

We really need to let this go. Forget the Civic, forget the 3, this forum is about MIDSIZE sedans, and those are NOT MIDSIZE sedans.

I just dont want to see this thread deep-sixed by our excellent host for veering off-topic, ESPECIALLY since it FINALLY started to heat up, with the advent of the well conceived and written Car and Driver comparison test.

~alpha

baggs32

Agreed. I'm sorry I ever posted my opinion.

I read some of the C&D comparo and see where they were coming from now. I still don't think the SPEED6 belongs there though. It belongs with a different crowd for different reasons and they should have used the V6 version. Not that the V6 Mazda6 would have won by any stretch of the imagination but it would have been better suited to the group.

That's my opinion accordman. :P

Do we have an emotorcon for opinions? :confuse:

alpha01

Well, it shouldnt be noticed. Theres no sporting Toyota with a V6 and stick for under 30 grand.

OTOH, what wasnt caught was that the Nissan Altima SE-R was completely neglected, and it meets ALL of the eligibility requirements..... V6, stick, top sport model of the lineup, under 30K, wasnt available at the time of the last comparison.....

~alpha

pat

Do we have an emotorcon for opinions?

Yep. It looks a lot like this: IMHO



And thanks, alpha.

calidave

I want to consider new and USED vehicles in this analaysis (gasp!).

What would you buy as your primary form of transportation if you had 30k burning a hole in your pocket? Please assume that your needs are: sporty, yet comfortable on the highway; 4 seats minimum; over 28 mpg, and reasonable reliability.

Our discussions always focus on new cars, but shouldn't our discussions start with price, and thus include used cars, as well?

I think comparos between new cars and equal-priced-but-more-expensive-when-new used cars are valuable.

If you have a view on what vehicle you’d buy based on these parameters, see calidave, "Best new or used vehicle for $30,000" #1, 2 Jan 2006 1:53 pm

If you are interested in what folks recommended at the 40K price point, see http://townhall-talk.edmunds.com/direct/view/.efdc5b2/0

driverdm

So who decides that the Speed6 is 'one of the best products' on the market? You state it as if it is a fact.

I decided that the Speed6 was one of the best products on the market... by reading the MT, C&D, and Edmunds reviews that basically said the same. But hey what do those guys know about cars anyway.

Also, are you satisfied that the Jetta won the comparo, thereby beating the Speed6? Are you satisfied the TSX beat the Speed6? If no, why all the hate postings against the Accord?

All the rest are sports sedans. Though you could debate, none stick out as a blatant family sedan like the Accord does. And the comparo was about sports sedans as evidenced by this quote from the FIRST page:

"...we present this field of five sub-$30,000 sports sedans"

I still haven't seen the comparison with a Protege against cars so far out of its league.

driverdm

Baggs I am with you 100% and add another 50% too that. THis comparison was not about the average daily driver. It was set up to be about affordable performance machines from the first page. The Speed6, if it was a comparison for just sporty sedans isn't applicable. Anybody who buys one, knows exactly what they are getting into. The like the whine of the engine, the don't mind a stiffer ride. If you buy a Speed6 and then complain about ride stiffness, you obviously didn't do your homework.

Also according to Mazda, you can have a Speed6 with leather for under $30K, including destination. But what does Mazda know about that car anyway.

mazda6s

December 2005:

Camry: 33,324
Accord: 26,370
Sonata: 20,853
Altima: 18,448
Fusion: 7,568
Milan: 2,111

Ya, I always like to know this stuff so I can make sure I buy the car that sells the best. :shades:

mhattrup

...And a 6 speed tranny which always makes a big difference IMO... I've been testing the Subie GT Legacy 5-sp, the Accord Coupe 6sp V6, and TL. I just test drove a TSX 6-spd because I missed the last TL the dealer had and while it is very refined I don't know how it won the CD comparo over the GT Legacy last year. It does have instantaneous steering response but it's gutless off the line. I found myself at speed pretty quickly but it wasn't much fun getting there - its almost too smooth (again my opinion). The Accord is similar in refinement but it has more torque and HP which comes on sooner in the revs than the TSX and with a 6 speed and 17 inch wheels and tires and a retuned suspension I'd say its handling gap with the TSX is virtually gone (if there was one)and it kicks the TSX'x but 0-60. I haven't been able to drive a 6-spd TL (missed one by a day last week) but the auto's are still pretty quick but not as fun as the Legacy auto and nowhere near as fun as the Legacy GT 5-spd.

After driving the GT I couldn't understand how C&D panned the Legacy's build quality saying the windows rattled etc... until my last trip to the dealer. My impression was that there was an expensive sounding "THUNK" when you closed the doors but the Legacy in the showroom had the windows down part way and the windows did indeed rattle a little when the doors were shut but if they are full up they close very tightly I think.

I think C&D does have a bias but its against turbo's! They really seem to like "traditional" powerplants especially ones like Honda produces that yield silky power at the higher end of the rev range. I'm currently driving a 5-spd 1.8 Turbo Passat and know ALL about Turbo Lag so maybe that's why I don't think the GT or the Mazada suffer from it. How much lag can there be if you get to 60 in Under 6 seconds anyway!!! :-) As for the GLI winning the recent comparo I can see how that would happen - if the car rides and handles like my Passat (better I'm sure) it would be a very fun car to drive. Would I buy a VW again... not until there is some proof that their reliability has improved. The 1999 Passat I have is very quiet, handles very well, and is fun to drive if it didn't seem to be sprouting a leak a week or having some other issue come up I wouldn't be looking for a new ride.

driverdm

And all of a sudden the playing field has really changed. The Sonata is running rampant on the sales charts. If it wasn't for the interior, I might consider one. The Fusion is also edging upwards month after month. I'd expect it and the Milan to unseat the Altima when everything is up and running.

My goodness how things have changed and very quickly. Just think, there is a 269 hp Camry on the way that looks like it stole its exterior and interior from a Mazda6. Who would have ever predicted this. The big SUV craze ended in the matter of months and all of a sudden crossovers, which were new to the market and a niche not too long ago, is the new big thing. And also in the flash of an eye, it seems like people will be able to say the words Lincoln and Cadillac with passion. The Zephyr will have AWD and 270 hp next year and the new Lincoln sedans look like winners. My goodness, I can hardly keep up.

backy

I find it really interesting that the old, tired Camry, which is coming in last lately in all the comparos, is still way out in front of the pack in sales. Sure, some of that is fleet sales, but even considering those the Accord hasn't been able to catch up even with a mid-gen refresh. And soon the Camry will be all-new! What will that do to the sales gap between Camry and Accord, and all the rest? Only Sonata seems to be gaining much ground--and Fusion/Milan of course because they started from zero.

ctalk

Sure, some of that is fleet sales, but even considering those the Accord hasn't been able to catch up even with a mid-gen refresh.

For last years fleet sales, the Accord outsold the Camry in retail sales (total sales)

backy

But in December (which I was talking about)?

driverdm

Don't be surprised at the Camry. Look at the Explorer. It is a great product but it won't win many comparos... well the old design at least. But it still led the pack.

The new Camry I think will enter into the market but won't be the splash that the Sonata is. The Camry isn't the value it used to be. And the differences are so blurred that it is hard to destinguish betwenn the products. Also, I believe that the new Camry isn't that much different from the old one. It may have a more agressive look but the dimensions are relatively unchanged. The pricing may inch up as well.

Then remember that there is the new Sebring is on the verge and Chrysler is hot. I think that the midsize car segment will soon become like the European car market, with no one company owning a far large part of the market.

stickguy

sales probably won't change much. IMO, based on how many people buy the current version, the target audience doesn't care about cars, so probably won't appreciate the changes. What they will notice, however, is if the price increases. If it does, that will hurt sales more than the newness will help them.

Hey, if you are going to sell an appliance, you gotta keep the price down!

It does look pretty nice in the pictures though.

baggs32

It does look pretty nice in the pictures though.

Since the front looks like a cross between a Mazda6 and a Mazda3 while the rear looks like the Sonata it should look nice.

alpha01

Are you kidding? The new Camry is dimensionally the same to the current only in length. Wheelbase (up by 2 inches), track, and height have all been altered. How big do you want this car to get?

If speculation proves correct, it will also have two all-new transmissions, an all-new V6, an improved 4 cylinder, 8 standard airbags, better steering and handling, and more available features. The Sonata a splash? Have you seen how much cash they're stuffing in the trunks?

I wouldnt call Chrysler "HOT" either. Sure the 300 is doing well, but right now, thats about it. HUGE incentives are available on volume sellers like the Liberty, leftover Neons can be had for like 11 grand, the Charger isnt selling well, the Magnum has fallen off, the minivans are dated, etc etc etc. AND, there's still a reliance on fleet to a greater degree than you might think.

~alpha

calidave

and let's not forget how great the Pacifica has done

I think Chrysler may be suffering from Americans realization that a Chrysler is not an "American" car, any more. And if they are gonna send money overseas, they are gonna buy something they think is reliable, like a Honda or Toyota. Or if they want something sporty, they are gonna buy a BMW. Why the heck would anyone buy a Chrysler, unless it is the only offering that meets your specs (like the Sebring convertible back in 2000 - no other convertibles thaat seat 4 for under 30k)

Further evidence that Americans think of Chrysler as a foreign car company? What's the latest ad campaign for Daimler Chrysler? An ad focusing on the founder of Chrysler, Joe Bob Chrysler. That's pretty pathetic.

cxc

.....

Honda's drop for the month was led by a 31 percent-decline in sales of Accord cars, its best-selling U.S. model.....

source

What is wrong?

03accordman

"So who decides that the Speed6 is 'one of the best products' on the market? You state it as if it is a fact."

"I decided that the Speed6 was one of the best products on the market... by reading the MT, C&D, and Edmunds reviews that basically said the same. But hey what do those guys know about cars anyway"

Then state is as your ipinion, not as universally accpeted fact! That was my point.

backy

Hmmm, let's see... Accord sales drop 31%; Sonata sales increase by over 40% compared to November, and about 50% from last December; Fusion sales also pick up. Is there a trend here?

jrock65

When the 2007 Optima arrives, I expect Hyundai's Sonata/Optima combo in the midsize segment to nearly rival Accord sales. Fusion/Milan combo should be about 200,000 sales in 2006.

ctalk

And yet the Camry, the car that just lost two comparisons and is on its last year, is still standing strong :P The refresh on the Accord doesn't seem to improve Accord's sales though.

We see the effects of the introduction of the Sonata and Fusion/Milan more on the Accord's sales because Honda doesn't believe in selling their cars in fleets.

"Thanks for the info, but its an imcomplete picture as we have no idea the breakout of Fleet sales. Historically for their current generations, the Camry has run at 13-14% fleet and the Accord at 3%.

Camry is then 28,659 to individuals
Accord is then 25,579, clearly a much narrower difference." - alpha01

After seeing the Sonata's December sales, the Sonata may possibly overtake the Altima next year!

backy

I made the same point on the Camry a few posts ago:

backy, "Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread" #1101, 4 Jan 2006 9:12 pm

Actually, the Sonata already has overtaken the Altima, although not yet for full-year sales.

bjbird2

If you want to buy what sells the best, then buy a Chevy truck.
Sales numbers should not influence your decision. Would you also buy a Big Mac instead of a filet because it sells more? I buy what I like the best regardless of sales numbers.