Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

stickguy

Actually brings up another question I like to ask: do you prefer a loaded smaller car, or a base bigger one, for the same price?

Say you can get a Civic EX with moonroof, etc. for the same price as an Accord DX with roll up windows. Or a loaded up Corolla LE with SAB, ABS, roof for the price of a stirppo Camry.

Do yo uwant the mid size room (and extra power), or the better mileage and extra features of the smaller car?

backy

I prefer a loaded, economical (relatively) larger car for the same price as a smaller, less loaded car. For example, I can get a Sonata with large-car interior room, all the latest safety features including ESC, 6-speaker MP3 stereo, 8-way adjustable driver's seat, and 24/34 mpg for about $16k--which is what a compact like the Civic LX or Mazda3i would cost, assuming I could get them at a nice discount (not assured).

stickguy

is that sticker or street pricing? And I assume that's a 4 cyl, but is it stick or AT?

Maybe I should go try one out? I suppose it wouldn't hurt!

bhmr59

Yes, go try one out. I was at dealership a few weeks back for oil change. They had a base 4 cyl, stick shift. Sticker was in the low 18's. Through 9/30, finance with Hyundai & get $1,000 rebate, competitive car owner (a pretty big list) get the buyer an additional $1,000 rabate. So, before any dealer negotiations the street price would be under $16,500.

stickguy

although I have a feeling that you have to move up a couple of models to get a moonroof. But, maybe I will take a peak next time I am in the neighborhood. I do like the style, although it looks a lot like the new accord from behind.

backy

Yes, I was talking street prices (i.e., what we actually pay). A Sonata (GLS) with a moonroof and other goodies, including automatic, fogs, and alloys, would run closer to $17,500 before fees. But then, a nice compact like a Civic EX would run at least that much if not more.

The '06 Accord's rear end is defintely an improvement. But if Honda didn't significantly change the driving dynamics of the car, I'd still prefer the Sonata--much roomier also.

stickguy

looks like the only way to get a stick is the GL, which has no options at all. It is pretty well equipped though, for a base model at that price point, and the numbers look good on paper (room/poser/mpg, etc). Big trunk too.

Gotta have a moonroof though, and a stick.

Not sure what you don't like about the Accord. I thought it drove very nicely. Good combo of ride and handling (comfort and performance). And, you can get it lightly (LX) or fully (EXL) loaded, with the stick shift.

The Mazda 6 is also being discounted pretty heavily from what I hear. I do like that car, but have trouble getting the front seat adjusted to fit me, one reason I am anxious to see the Fusion.

May still end up with the Accord if I move to a mid-size, although I still ahven't given up on something Civic-sized, although I'm still not sure that I would want the Civic itself.

backy

Not sure what you don't like about the Accord.

vs. Sonata: less interior and trunk room, harsher and louder ride, fewer safety features, lesser warranty, higher price. Rear end is better now, but I'm still not crazy about the front end. Still a nice car, but I wouldn't pay a few thousand more for it than for a Sonata.

bhmr59

Give the GLS (either 4 or 6 cyl) a try. Check out the shifttronic feature of the automatic tranny. You won't be working your left foot, but manually changing the gears MAY satisfy your desires. Note that the I-4 is a 4 speed and the V6 is a 5 speed.

Owner loyalty is nice, but with all the new features in the market now, a buyer owes it to himself to see what is available. My Sonata is an '05. A year ago I never thought I'd be a Hyundai owner. But after doing some research I took a test drive in February and wound up buying one in April. I seldom use the shiftronic but, IMP, it behaves quite like (not "exactly like") a stick.

stickguy

my left leg would feel left out if my right got all the exercise.

as to the rest, personal taste, but I do like the driving dynamics of hte Accord.

cheng1

Hi guys,

2 weeks ago, I purchased an 06 LX V6 Honda Accord Sedan. Before that, I actually tested the Hyundai Sonata LX, Toyota Camry SE V6, and looked at the Nissan Altima SE. The Toyota Camry SE V6 seemed to shift too slowly (I didn't like the way the car accelerated) and the ride was a little rough. After test driving the Camry SE V6 twice, I realized it wasn't the car for me. I then test drove the Hyundai Sonata LX and was pretty impressed with the ride, standard veatures including VSA, price, huge trunk space, and acceleration. The reason I didn't buy the Sonata was due to resale value, cheapish looking radio system, general public opinion, and a bit of fear that it would break down a few years down the line. I know, it is a new car in a new factory, but I cant afford any problems as I will be holding this car for 7 or more years. Then there was the Altima. I love the exterior styling, but I felt the cost was too expensive for very few standard features.

Finally, I bought the 06 Accord LX V6 Sedan for almost invoice price. Included was VSA, Moonroof, nice 17" rims, heated mirrors, and longer powertrain warranty. The ride was very nice and smooth, and the interior is very well thought out. No leather, but I already had leather in my last car, and it gets too hot and too cold. Cloth is good enough for me.

In the end, I chose the Accord over the Sonata, because I really like the styling on the 06 Accord LX V6 and I cannot risk having problems down the line. But, I still think that if the Hyundai Sonata proves reliable down the line, it is the best value for it's class.

backy

It's hard to argue with Honda's track record for reliability, although the current-gen Accord has not been immune to significant problems (transmission, brakes, windows, rattles). But Honda has had a few years to work out the kinks on this model and overall has a great reliability record.

Do you realize that since you will keep the car for at least 7 years, the resale issue is really moot?

What did you end up paying for the Accord, before taxes and fees?

banditboy

As a past sonata owner a 00 i think the resale is kinda mute from personal experience.I paid 17,500 for a GLS[leather and loaded] and my brother picked up a accord v6 for 21,500 .His came with nothing ...he added a 500$ radio ,cloth seat and base model.
I sold mine as a private party and he too did the same.He made out 4500 more than me.

Now we both had few issues withour cars so he made 500$ more then me in resale after 5 yrs and 100k miles .

remember these was a personal experiences but i was a bit shocked and so was he,

Now he got a honda pilot and me a mazda 6

fitguy

I've owned 3 of the six over the past 5 yrs (VW, Accord, now Mazda6S) and wanted to throw in one thing I didn't see mentioned: while all six have various attributes that appeal to different buyers, one feature that hooked us on the Mazda (besides the handling) was the 5-Door option (I hope that is still considered a sedan?)- we use the hatch feature quite a bit and it is extremely handy. Not important to some buyers; but worth thinking about for others. To have a sleek sedan look and the utility of a hatch sets the Mazda apart.

backy

That is a good point. Of course, Passat has a wagon option, as does the Mazda6. That was a key feature for me when I bought a car for my wife last year.

stickguy

saw a new one in a parking lot today. The abck end does catch my idea because I initial think it is something else (resembles the Accord), or maybe I just find it distinctive.

Anyway, it is sharp looking, and the interior looks nice enough, and quite roomy. I guess if the driving dynamics are there, and they have reliability/durability under control, it could be a good deal at the price point.

Also sat in 2 Accords (in the showroom) tonight, and EX and an EX-L. I like the cloth, but without power tilt adjustment (the power height is just up/down, not sep. front/back), I can't get the seat adjusted the way I like it (I like to recline, not pitch forward).

Not sure how the manual 8 way of the Sonata works, but I have pretty much decided whatever I get needs to have 8 way power drivers seat, or I will regret it. That's one thing that has eliminated the new Civic for me (seat comfort), and is borderline for the Mazda 3.

Current front runner is the Accord, but still waiting on the Fusion. That has power seat with cloth, but I think the back rest might still be manual, which is OK as long as the bottom adjusts seperately front and rear.

backy

Sonata's driver's seat has 8-way seat adjuster, including separate controls for raising the front and back of the seat bottom, on all models, even when it's just a manual control. That is one reason I like Hyundais--they all offer this kind of driver's seat, down to the low-buck Accent.

anonymousposts

The same thing that kept me from even test driving the Sonata would probably keep you from wanting one as well ... No moonroof with the 5-speed manual. Otherwise it's a decent car at a decent price. We plan to drive one soon just to get our $25.

I know I am in the minority, but I actually prefer the looks of the 03-05 Accords vs. the 06.

escortowner

you know....I bought a Mazda6 myself and I have to say - the 5-door option is very appealing now that I have the true sedan. I wish I sould have shelled out the extra for that feature. There have been many situations where I wish I could hopen it up more....but then again, I also wish I wouldn't have gone cheap and gotten a base model v-6 either. wish I would have gotten leather, bose and a moonroof.

stickguy

For a freebie, I'll look at or drive anything. But, I don't know anything about a $25 offer from Hyundai.

Anony, you are correct. I want a stick, and won't buy a car without a moonroof (unless, of course, it is a convertible). Why is it so hard for makers to figure out that stick buyers might also want a few options?

Otherwise, from a quick look at the standard features, it has everything else I want or need. I'll probably still stop in next time I pass that dealer, since I have never even sat in one.

Funny thing is, some cars sound perfect on paper, then I just don't like them in person, or the seats don't feel good. That's my problem with the new Civic. I really wanted to love it, but it just didn't work for me.

Right now, the only thing on my radar that has what I want and should likely come out in the teens is the Fusion SE. The Accord EXL, even with a great deal, will still be 22.5K+.

I would probably grab a fire sale Mazda 6, but (yup) don't fit well in the seats.

bhmr59

You keep mentioning Civic. Maybe you should look at the comparable Hyundai...the Elantra. You can get stick shift & moon roof, 4 or 5 doors.

haefr

Hyundai offers no manual transmission option in any '06 Sonatas with the new 3.3L V-6 engine. You could get a sunroof and manual tranny in the GLS with the 2.4L I-4 enigne, though, if you specify the optional Premium Package.

backy

Sorry, no. The GLS comes standard with an automatic. Only the base GL comes with a stick. But there are aftermarket sunroofs...

haefr

You're right.

anonymousposts

just don't have the factory look of a factory sunroof. They have have the tell-tale sign of the frame that isn't present in a factory roof.

The $25 offer came in the mail. We need to hurry up and test drive the car though. We only have until 09/30/05.

I would think you could probably get a EX-L Accord for $21,500-$22,000. I might be wrong here but I paid $22,500 for mine with a whole bunch of accessories added on.

stickguy

invoice on an '06 is about 22 or just over. I would look at $22.5 as a strong deal, so that's what I use as an estimate.

I will never have an aftermarket moonroof. It has to come from the factory (just my personal neurosis).

I really am not looking at small cars. The Civic (and the Mazda 3) where really exceptions. It would make more sense to get a mid size if I am going to spend the money, since it would be more usable as a family car.

Still anxious to see the Fusion, but after further review, if the SOnata had a moonroof option from the factory, I would give it a long look.

bhmr59

I only mentioned the Elantra because you mentioned the civic a few times. The Elantra has more room, more features all the stuff you want for $2K+ less than the Civic.

ctalk

Are you talking about the New Civic vs. the Elantra?

I know this isn't the place to talk about compact cars, I'm just curious.

bhmr59

I was talking about both being '05. Doing a TMV, the price difference is more like $3500 as I recall.

hrao

FORD claims their 500 ( FORD 500) has better safety scores than CAMRY is it true ?
Did Ford 500 get the IIHS bet pick award ?

ctalk

Well, in NHSTA the Ford Five Hundred got 5 stars for both front/side crash tests.
But as I said before, I do not trust NHSTA for Side Crash ratings.

But IIHS did test the Ford 500 for a Frontal Crash Test.
It got a best pick, but so did that Camry. Although, the Camry got acceptable in one area Leg/foot, right The Ford 500 got good in all areas.

Camry- IIHS

FORD claims their 500 ( FORD 500) has better safety scores than CAMRY is it true ?
Yes, this is true.

oldjoe

If you are looking for an option to the Toyota/Honda top- quality twins, then look at the Subaru, they appear to be excellent autos with a well established history of reliability and quality. Their transmissions and engines are well thought out and bulletproof as they come.,..a nice alternative to Toyota/Honda with a PROVEN track record. Also the well designed Mazda comes to mind. The best of the Asian autos lead the world stage...too bad about Mitsubishi, but that was a crooked management team that ruined them...their CEO ios currently behind bars for his shenanigans with the Mitsubishi cars...ignoring safety defects, engineering defects, refusing to repair major safety defects...he reaped what he sowed. However, the Asian Japanese models still lead the auto top-quality analysis. And it is too bad that the EU is bringing up the rear. They used to have top-quality autos, but the standard moved higher while they were asleep at the switch.

oldjoe

Sorry, I don't think you were really paying close attention to the Accord power driver's seat, the 8 way power driver's seat is standard on all Accord EX. There is a smooth front or back tilt...must be you did not have enough time to really try to adjust them. The EX-V6 also has a 6 way passenger seat, maybe you were confused by the spec sheets. The driver's seat lumbar support in the Accords should allow you to tailor the driver's seat to exactly what you want. Go back to the Honda dealer and really pat attention to the 8-way power seat controls.

oldjoe

The 2006 Civic is beautiful and gas mileage with an auto is 30/40 about 20% better than the competition, and the Hybrid comes in at an impressive 51 MPG as highway mileage. The new Civic looks like a smaller version of the Accord, sleek, well designed and of course, the bulletproof quality of a Honda.

stickguy

The subes aren't bad, but I don't need the AWD, and the turbo model gets pricy (and is thirsty).

I am pretty sure that the cloth Accord EX just had one button that raised/lowered the seat. The EX-L model added the extra front/rear height adjustment. So, the EX worked like the LX, but with a motor instead of a ratchet lever. Of course, I could be wrong (not that it has happened yet1)

OK, I got out the brochure. For the 4 cyl, the 8 way power is only with the leather. Otherwise, it just has power height adjustment like I thought.

backy

I think the Legacy has a lot going for it, including AWD which you can't get on any of the other cars in this discussion. Minuses are a relatively small back seat room compared to most of the other cars here, lower fuel economy (although improved a bit for '06), and it is pricey unless you get the base model on a good sale--I've seen them under $19k for instance, not bad at all for a quality AWD mid-sized car. The Legacy was interesting to me, living in the North as I do, but I've found ABS/traction control handles the winter weather I drive in, in the city, so the price bump isn't worth it to me. For someone who drives in snowy conditions a lot, it could be just the thing.

maxamillion1

Stickguy is right...

and the EXV6 has a 4-way power passenger's seat, NOT a six-way one. :P

pat

I've dropped "Import" from the title of this discussion for several reasons and added the Ford Fusion and Mercury Milan here. There have been some good suggestions that all of these sedans are comparable and there never really was a reason to restrict this to "imports" IMO, as difficult as "import" can be to define.

Enjoy! :shades:

backy

With an out-the-door price difference, including rebates and discounts, of about $20k from the least expensive (Sonata) to the most expensive (Passat). And the Accord, Altima, Camry, Mazda6, and Passat 4-bangers competing against V6s, price-wise, from Ford, Hyundai, and Mercury.

If the best trim from each car line were to be compared (by someone other than myself), here's how I think they would stack up:

Passat
Accord
Mazda6 (Mazdaspeed)
Altima (SE-R)
Milan / Fusion / Sonata (virtual tie)
Camry

Based on price, say a cap of $22k including destination (all with automatics, since those are the most popular in this class), here is where I think they would wind up:

Sonata GLS V6 (no options)
Accord LX-SE (ok, it's $75 over, shoot me)
Milan V6 (no options)
Fusion SE V6 (with room for $725 in options, take your pick, e.g. ABS or side airbags or...)
Mazda6i (with Convenience pkg and side bags, it's $70 over)
Altima 2.5S (with SE and safety packages)
Camry SE (no options)
Passat - N/A under $22k

jrock65

Is the max for a comparo thread 8 sedans now? Wasn't it 6 before?

zzzoom6

i've owned a sedan, wagon, and hatchback in the past and there is no question in my mind that having extra storage room is a huge advantage. whether it be buying a tv, picking up a couple friends/ family at the airport, or swinging by the local home improvement store, the extra flexability is really nice. so when it came to my decision as to what to buy this was something that i considered.

i drove the accord v6 w/ manual (wanted to have the sportiness of a stick), altima v6, legacy (both gt and non-gt), acura rsx, mazda 6, malibu maax, and the 06 civic ex. going into it, i knew that i wanted more than an appliance...wanted something fun to drive. this means more than 0-60 times to me; handling and road feel was critical. speed was an issue, but not primary.

although i loved the altima engine, it's handling was numb and clumsy. also didn't care for getting in and out of the car. easily dropped off the list. the malibu maax had similar problems so it too was crossed off. plus it wasn't too attractive.

the rsx was really fun, but it just screamed boy racer. plus acura dealerships have never been known for giving great deals. the civic was nice; exactly the opposite character-wise to the rsx. great shifting transmissions, good steering, pretty nice interior...but little emotion to it. sensible yes...fun, not quite.

off to drive the subies! being a previous subie owner, i understood the benefits of awd. secure in the wet and cold, and really fun for cornering when dry. but as other writers have written, not so good on gas, particularly on city driving. the looks of the sedan were really good (the gauge cluster is very nice) and the handling was great. very much a confidence inspiring drive. steering was great, acceleration in the gt was amazing. the tranny was decent; long throws and a bit spongy. but very spendy, especially in gt limited trim. and the seats made my hamstrings numb. would love to have one but for the cost and the seats. had to move on.

next came the accord. four door left me yawning. coupe with six speed only other choice. brilliant transmission...by far the best. when the tach hit 4k, hang on! fit and finish excellent (center console by far the best and a good example of honda's engineering prowess). handling was pretty good, steering a bit numb, but still responsive enough. visibility pretty bad. convenience of 2 door not good. pretty expensive, and hard to get a deal on limited supply six speed. still a contender, but had to keep looking.

mazda, though getting pretty good reviews, apparently wasn't selling well so the dealers were offering huge discounts on the 2005's. had to see... loved that they had every body style available. the hatch 5-door had the great looks of a coupe with the convenience of 4 doors and storage of a wagon. handling is cat-like. drove on a curvy road that i had tried the rsx on, and was very surprised at how well the 6 compared. v-6 very smooth and picks up speed with a surge starting at 3k on the tach. road noise a bit high, but that's what radios are for. red gauges annoying, but can be replaced without too much effort. so got down to negotiations. under 20k for v6 hatch w/ moonroof, bose stereo, curtain airbags, traction control and some free accessories. turns out to be about 4-6 thousand less than the accord or legacy deals i had been offered.

i've had the 6 for 3 weeks now. every time i get into it, i love the looks more. had to help a friend move a filing cabinet, and no prob. could have fit 3 of them! keep looking for excuses to find long, curvy roads to fully appreciate this car's handling. not a perfect car, but fit my needs and desires best. this car is more than an appliance...it's also fun to drive. :shades:

pat

Yes it used to be 6 - it's been increased to 9. They did that to shut me up because I kept complaining about 6 not being enough in some discussions.

danf1

Way to go Pat. Sometimes the squeaky wheel gets oiled, sometimes it gets removed.

blnewto

Your lineup & ranking seems pretty well thought-out and especially when you factor in the superior warranty offered from Hyundai. I seriously doubt that huge warranty is going to hang on much more than a year. I'm sure it's being used primarily to gain market share now, since Hyundais reliability is becoming much more prevelant instead of a liability.

Curious why the Galant is never mentioned in these comparos, is it such a low volume that's it's not even on the radar anymore?

backy

Looks like the long warranty will be in place at least through the 2008 model year:

http://www.automotivedigest.com/print_art.asp?ArticlesID=10736

Galant is a blip on the radar. For example, last month there were 2110 Galants sold in the U.S.--that is a rate of 25,000 for the whole year. And the Galant is Mitsu's volume leader in the U.S.! Hyundai sold lots more Sonatas in the U.S. in November than Mitsubishi sold vehicles.

lmacmil

It's too bad because the Galant, Eclipse and Endeavor are not bad vehicles. I think once a company starts having well publicized financial problems, it's hard to get people in the showroom no matter how competitive the vehicles are.

backy

It doesn't help that there are few independent Mitsu dealers. The nearest one to me is paired with a Hyundai dealership. I was talking with someone there the other day while waiting for an oil change. He said that he came in to drive the Galant but was not impressed. So the sales rep suggested he drive a Sonata. He loved it, said it was a much nicer car than the Galant. So when you have to compete head to head with low-priced but solid cars like the Sonata, it is very hard to move the metal.

jwats

I am considering a Honda Accord 4 cyl ex Coupe with MT as an " around town" car--but have learned that for about the same price, I can buy a Mazda 6 hatch if I buy a 2005.

A couple of questions:
1. who has been through the Accord vs Mazda search and how did you come out?
2. will the Mazda 6 have noticeably superior handling? I am not a particularly aggressive driver. Does the Coupe have better handling than the sedan?
3. Do you think the Mazda would be a durable? I plan to keep the car a long time.
Free advice welcome!

backy

You ask some good questions but IMO you are not asking the most important question: do you really need the versatility of a mid-sized 5-door hatchback? If the answer is "Yes", then the decision becomes easy. If the answer is "No", then you have more options.

Also, if the Mazda6 hatch costs the same as the '06 Accord EX Coupe, then you are being seriously overcharged for the Mazda--or that hatch is a loaded V6. Dealers in my town are offering $6000 off all '05 Mazda6's, no negotiating needed.

jwats

good point. I don't need the versatility of a hatch--although it would be handy at times. Your point on pricing is correct, I can buy a $26,000 Mazda6 or a $24,000 Accord Coupe for about $21,000. All the leftovers 6's are V-6 engines--with 25% worse gas mileage than the Accord.

I guess I am attracted the Mazda6 because it has the sporting quality of the COUPE with added versatility--and probably better handling.

On the other hand, it is not as economical to own and probably not as durable

John