Edmunds dealer partner, Bayway Leasing, is now offering transparent lease deals via these forums. Click here to see the latest vehicles!

Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

11415171920235

Comments

  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    very well put. no pointing fingers but some writers here constantly talk about the sonata being copied and whatnot, it just leads to no good(me myself did no good to rebuttal it either)

    I bet if anyone from honda, toyota and hyundai read this thread they would laugh, because it is childishly ridicolous sometimes, while those guys are worried about making good cars for customers and increase their sales

    i'm going to try to be objective , and i think if everyone here can do the same then we won't get into these kinds of debates

    When i say that the accord lacks exterior design harmony in alot of ways, i'm just saying it in a way that i figure most common people will think the same. Its also the same when i say the sonatas interior is tight but not as luxurious as the accords. I think that is as much 1 + 1 = 2

    to start something new, does anyone know the advantages of a double wishbone rear set up, compared to a multilink rear setup or strut?
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Many years ago, I'm fuzzy on the details, it was learned that a super secret Soviet Union design of an airplane or space ship was almost identical to a US version. Both were closely kept secrets, but they were very similar. The answer? Physics.

    Not an exact correlation, but all mid-size cars, trying to provide interior & cargo sapce, plus drag coefficents are bound to took somewhat alike. A grille, headlight or tail light similarity is bound to happen once the basic shape of the car is decided. The differences are in the body shapes & body panels..but how much computer generated designed differences are likely .

    This ain't 1955--1965 when some truly radical & beautiful designs hit the showrooms.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    High resale usually means llong term reliability.
    It also depends on the demand of it in the Used car maket. (I think)
    And what price they sell their cars at. (discounts)
    What the domestics are doing right now with employee discounts will really effect their cars resale values.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Don't get sucked into the old GM argument about resale value. If I could buy a new 'Sonata GLS SV for $16,700, $17825 OTD, vs a list price of $19594, don't you think it would have a lower resale value than a car that would be maybe $22 to $23,000 OTD? Isn't it reasonable that a used '05 or '04 will have a significantly lower resale value than a brand new car?

    Do a study thru Edmund's comparing TMV & TCO. Look at the projected depreciation and subtract that from purchase price. You'll see that Sonata ('05) is right there with the Camcord. When you figure in the tme value of money the Hyundai is a better "investment", although no dereciating asset should be considered an
    "investment."
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Sounds like you are reading too much into a simple statement, which was based on the fact that used cars cost less than new cars, and they tend to lose the greatest dollar value in the first couple of years. Hence '04-05 Sonatas can be had for a lot less than new ones. High resale has a stronger correlation to market demand and brand loyalty than long-term reliability. For example, VWs have some of the strongest resale values around. Do they have stellar long-term reliability? No. The Mini Cooper also has strong resale value. We know nothing about its long-term reliability.
  • ykangykang Member Posts: 88
    People have their own tastes. If you like Hond, praise Honda(like ctalk). Same goes with Toyota, Nissan, Hyundai... What I don't understand is that these people tend to curse other brands. Can anyone on this forum explain this kind of behaviour?
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    "What the domestics are doing right now with employee discounts will really effect their cars resale values. "

    Actually this to me and most others is a joke. I have always been able to get the "employee discount pricing" or better on these cars already. If fact, many car dealerships are also embarrassed, and advertise suc as "$1,000 below employee pricing" The funniest one though is the "Ford Family Plan" which includes only the cars/trucks that are not selling; who wnats to buy them anyway! Mustangs are not included and most dealers are trying to add $2,500 above MSRP to Mustang GTs. The new family sport sedan, the Dodge Charger is already selling $2,000-3,000 below MSRP; employee discount is around $1,500.

    "It also depends on the demand of it in the Used car maket. (I think) " You are absolutely right, however relability is a major factor in keeping the demand high. The other factor is the amount of availalble cars versus demand. Limited models will receive a higher price. For example a 66 Shelby GT mustang will command more than a 6 cylinder automatic.

    I do not believe the Sonata will be considered a limited model and long-term reliability is still unknown. The model is new now, looks good and is selling close to MSRP. Is that because of limited availability, newness or other? Wait 6 months and see how the price of the Sonata fairs; if it remains at close to MSRP then that is a good indicator. However if it drops off to invoice or even lower watch out!

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Part of it is making sure they don't have buyer's remorse. If you bought a car and then found out you had bought a real badly designed car, you would be upset. Many peopel toute their car to reassure themselves that they made the right choice. It is said that most of a car dealers advertising is to clam down the person who has already bought the car.

    Forums , such as Edmund's, are a good place to discuss facts, opinions and feeelings about a car. But remember, it is somewhat akin to harvesting wheat, in order to get the grain you have to throw away a lot of chaff.

    I am not sure I would go as far to say "..these people tend to curse other brands.", but I will agree there are a lot of people that are very passionate about their particular car model. And what else would you expect in a car enthusiast's forum.

    Having said all that, I don't own a Hyundai, but the Sonata and several of their other recent models seem to be good car value. As I said earlier, they may be the "Honda/Toyota car company of this decade". Several will laugh at that thought, however they were not around or at least were not into cars when the Honda 600 was introduced.

    Anyway, right now I am into Acura/Honda/Toyota/Lexus cars. I had some Oldsmobiles, Fords and Mercurys in the past and I have long given up on American reliability. My last American car was a 1990 Tuarus SHO 5-speed. It was a great car for 2 years , but then began to have significant relaiblity problems. But the real cincer was when I was in a Ford Taurus automatic on a vacation and the transmission began going out. When I arrived for a week on the beach at Destin, FA I took the car to a Ford delaer and rented a car. I told them I had a transmssion problem and they set up an appointment for Thursday for $1,000 to fix with rebuilt trans.. Thursday, they told me it was an engine problem because I didn't have ford plus. So they installed Frod plugs and ran diagnostics and $271 later they told me it was a transmission problme and it would cost $2,000 and they could fix it next week. Ford Customer sService would do nothing, so I trde it in for a new 1995 Toyota Avalon in a 2 hour window. Never bought another domestic since. Now Toyota is close to being on my non-car list after the terrible treatment over their Prius monopoly.

    YMMV,

    MidCow
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    Of course the camcords are a benchmark! Hyundia is trying its level best to do what? To reach the camcord status.

    These two cars are in the sights of every carmaker who wants to sell midsize cars in similar numbers.

    As for the Sonata, sure, I feel rear end looks like an Accords, but better. This has been mentioned in many reviews too.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    However if it drops off to invoice or even lower watch out!

    Accords and Camrys can be had for invoice or lower. Should we watch out about those cars too? ;)
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I read somewhere that the resale value depends on how much demand for it is in the Used Car market? (is the right)
    I know there is a lot of demand for Accords and Camry's in the used car market...
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I don't doubt you read that someplace as it is Economics 101--the greater the demand, the higher the price if supply is held constant. There is a lot of demand for used Accords and Camrys, but consider that there are over 800,000 Accords and Camrys sold each year, so there are plenty of them on the used car market to choose from. I have noticed the prices for used Sonatas moving up over the past couple of years. Perhaps the positive press that the Sonata has received recently for strong showings in quality surveys has helped. Another factor could be that there are far fewer used Sonatas available than cars like Accord and Camry. So I would not be surprised to see the '06 Sonata hold its value pretty well, as it is a much more capable car than the old Sonata.
  • oldjoeoldjoe Member Posts: 132
    Nobody is really taking the Hyundai copy-cat design seriously. Honda and Toyota are at the top because they do all things very well. There are many many people who shop Honda and Toyota dealerships on the weekends..."just looking." The Hyundai dealer gets no weekend traffic yet. The Sonata is trying to copy-cat three year old designs...Honda and Toyota are ready for the next generation of designs. The Hyundai is better suited to compare against the Chevrolet Malibu...not the exemplary Honda/Toyota autos. The fact that Hyuindai is forced to continue the money-losing 100,000 mile warranty just to get anyone to even look at them means that even Hyundai doesn't quite believe they have competitive autos to any in the marketplace. I look at the long line of Hyundais pulled up to the Hyundai Service entrance everyday and then look at the Honda/Toyota tiny service lines...tells a real story.
  • danf1danf1 Member Posts: 897
    Did you write that with a straight face? Our Saturday traffic is non stop. There are many instances when all of our salespeople are busy with customers, and people will wait up to an hour to see a salesperson.

    Hyundai is not forced to continue with their warranty, they choose to. Since they have increased the warranty, their claims have actually decreased about 35%. So they are building better quality cars now.

    As far as long lines of Hyundais at the service department, naturally more Hyundai customers use the dealers service department. That is because it is free. Covered under warranty. No cost to you. No deductible etc.... When your transmission breaks on a Honda after 36,000 miles(which believe it or not does happen), chances are you are not going to take it back to the dealer because it will cost less elsewhere.

    I'm not insinuating that Hyundai's are perfect and will never break, but they are very competitive in regards to quality. Perfect no, but find me any car that is.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    danf1,

    Thanks for the response. I notice from your bio that you drive a 2005 Cadillac CTS, Isn't the CTS 6-speed Type V an awesome car.

    I agree it looks like the Hyundai has gotten better, but just recently. I think oldjoe is right, the 10 year 100, 000 mile warranty is still a strong draw and is one of the major reasons that Hyundia is getting the foot traffic it is. Remeber when the Dodge/Chrysler drivetrains were failing often and they instituted the 7 year 70,000 powertrain warrant, well now is the last year for that. But heck, it took them some 10 years to recover.

    If you tink the Hyundia 10 year 100,000 drive train is not needed now, try dropping it to 3 years 36,000 miles and see how many loyal or prospective Hyundai owners become Honda/Toyota proponents.

    But old joe and others are right Hyundia is making great strides and they are pretty much equal to the 3 year old target they went for. The problem is it is not three years ago and Honda and Toyota have raised the standard.

    If Hyundai really wanted to excel, they would buy a BMW 3 series and study, analyze, take-a-part until they fully understood the BMW suspension sysstem, then they would engineer a suspension system that had the same characteristics. Mazda, has taken an approach "Zoom Zoom" similarly with success.

    Later,

    MidCow
  • pwimseypwimsey Member Posts: 16
    I don't think that there's anything to criticize wrt Hyundai's warranty - of course they wouldn't offer it if they did not have a history of making unreliable cars - but I think they also wouldn't offer it if they didn't believe that their cars were much better now. Saying "if it breaks, we'll pay to have it fixed" is a fairly convincing way of relieving people's worries about reliability...and it's not something that you see VW, for example, doing.

    On the other hand, people who claim that the Sonata is the new benchmark for the Camcords to beat are being *way* too premature; I think it will take years of consistently reliable Hyundais before they have anything approaching Camcord resale values. Contrary to what an earlier poster stated, Hyundai's history of unreliable cars is not 20 years in the past; they were making Excels until '94, and I still had my '90 Excel ten years ago - so there are going to be quite a few former Hyundai owners with relatively recent bad reliability experiences. And I noticed that the CR reports auto issue listed the '00 Sonata, '03 Tiburon, and '04 XG 350 in their "used cars to avoid" list.

    Because of their long history of reliability, Camcords are "no-brainers" for people looking for reliable cars, especially used ones. What I mean by "no-brainer" is that people know - even people who know next to nothing about automobiles - that Camcords (or, more generally Hondas and Toyotas) are reliable. I think that this fact alone accounts for the great resale value that these vehicles have.

    The Mazda Protege was also an extremely reliable vehicle throughout its entire run ('90-'03); I believe it was at least as reliable as the Camcords. But it never became a no-brainer because: (1) it didn't have the camcord history; and (2) not all Mazda lines had that level of reliability. So if you bought a protege, you got a car just as reliable as a camcord (or a civic/corolla, which is the closer comparison), but you did not receive the same resale premium that the Honda/Toyotas received because Mazda did not have that reputation.

    And that, basically, is the boat in which Hyundai finds themselves - they don't have anything approaching the level of reliability that Toy/Hon has; in fact, to the extent that they have a reliability rep, it's for bad reliability (although I'm sure that's fading, and I'm sure that many new car buyers don't remember the excel). And while Hyundai isn't close to being a no-brainer, they do have the next best thing - an excellent warranty. I suspect that that's enough to answer the reliability question in many people's minds - and it is absolutely the best move that Hyundai could have made to address reliability concerns.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    I'm assuming all of you have read the Edmunds comparo in which the Sonata beat out the Accord and Camry.

    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=106434

    And also the First Drive of the 06' Passat, which sounds like it will be the benchmark for all of these sedans.

    http://www.edmunds.com/apps/vdpcontainers/do/vdp/articleId=106641/pageNumber=1
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    wouldn't call a 40,000 vs. a 25,000 car a benchmark. It is not even in the same price range.

    People who shop for the Passat are most likely going to cross-shop it with Lexus ES300, Acura TL or G35 (even 3 series)
    But the thing Passat is missing against those sedans, is "luxury status"

    pwimsey: Agree with you, well written.

    lweiss posted this earlier: One explanation that I read about VW's bad decisions came from one of the business magazines- with the drop in the value of the dollar against the Euro during the past few years, they were desparate to increase profits in the US- so they went against their roots (cheap, fun to drive VW bugs and Jettas) and tried to go upmarket- with disasterous results.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    will also cost almost $40,000 when equipped with all options. It will be interesting to see if the Passat goes the way of the Jetta. The Jetta is a nice, solid car but they are selling like ice cream in a blizzard. Sure, some die hard ice cream people will still buy ice cream but people with common sense will buy hot chocolate.
  • bhmr59bhmr59 Member Posts: 1,601
    Hey oldjoe, did you see my '05 Sonata in the service line at the Hyundai dealer a few days ago? Yes, it was there. But it was only in for the 3,000 oil change, nothing was wrong.

    The service department opens at 7AM & will do "while you wait service". There had to be at least a dozen people who were in the waiting area when I arrived for my appointment at 8:30. They all had left with their cars before mine was finished a little after 9AM. So I assume they also were in for routine service. Meanwhile, other people arived after me and none of them seemed upset, so I assumed they were in for scheduled service work. That could be wrong, but normally when people have a problem, they tend to show it.

    Danf1, any info on how much your service dept does in scheduled service vs "problems?"
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    The 06' Passat starts at $22950, for the Value Edition. You can buy one well equipped for that. That's MSRP, before any wheelin' and dealin'.

    http://www.vw.com/passat/index.html
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    For a basic Value Edition with only one option. Rear Side airbags.

    The 2.0t, the car that has all the available options starts about $1000 more and can get WELL over $30K once you add Option Pkgs (1 or 2) and other separate options.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    I tried to build my own Passat 2.0t and when I selected the power sunroof with XM Radio it made me choose the automatic. No manual transmission with a sunroof? Count me out. That with the high price isn't worth it to me. For $27,000 for a 2.0t with a sunroof and XM and $30,000 for the 6 cylinder model 'll be at the Acura dealer buying a TL.
  • autonomousautonomous Member Posts: 1,769
    This forum can be so tiresome that sometimes I wonder why I bother. And then comes along your thoughtful and balanced posting, thank you!
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    I thought the Passat's option pkg fiasco was wierd too.

    But I got word from some salesmen over @ VWvotex.com that claim ONLY automatic verison of the Passat are being built at this time and that once the Manual verisons start rolling out (later this year), you'll be able to get similar pkging configurations.
  • anonymouspostsanonymousposts Member Posts: 3,802
    for VW if they don't offer the right car at the right price. It has gone a bit upmarket in price to still be considered Accord/Camry competition only. How many people will pay upwards of $30,000 for the Passat when you can get a G35, Acura TL, etc for not much more?
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The 2006 Accord V6 is upgraded to 244 hp, but mileage goes down a bit to 20/29 for the auto.

    Also, a 180 watt premium sound system is standard on the EX V6 6MT sedan.
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    "Also, a 180 watt premium sound system is standard on the EX V6 6MT sedan. "

    This is the same stereo that is currently offered on the 6-speed V6 EX Coupe and it is pretty nice!

    I notice the LED taillights were not mentioned, but sometimes that feature isn't always mentioned on car spec sheeets.

    Cheers,

    MidCow
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Now that both the Sonata and Accord have side curtain airbagas standard on all their models, do you guys think that it's pretty much a given that the 2007 Camry and 2007 Altima will have side curtains standard as well?
  • deluxedeluxe Member Posts: 29
    Now, what would be wrong about atleast offering that upgraded stereo as an option for "normal" EX V6 with AT? I like the 06 Accord a lot( I am planing to get a new vehicle in next 3 months), but one of the things that bug me is average (at best) stereo. Altima gets Bose, Mazda gets Bose, Vw has Monsoon/Dynaudio. Granted they are all offered as option, but at least you have that option.

    Nothing against driving a stick, I lived for 8 years in Germany- but right now I dont need a stick in a family sedan.Thats just me ,I know a lot of people do like to drive stick, but maybe somebody has the numbers on manual Accords sold...
  • midnightcowboymidnightcowboy Member Posts: 1,978
    Deluxe,

    Honda by the way they package different models does not allow very many upgrades. The 180 watt is only available with the EX V6 6-speed manual ( sedan or coupe) . If you get the NAV it would be fairly hard to upgrade. If you get non-NAV you could upgrade speakers, amps and head units to a much better stereo. The only downside is that you would probably loose your steering wheel controls.

    Concerning the Manual, Honda has one of the smoothest shifting slickest shifters available. And if you look at the V6 sedan the mpg ratings 21/30 are actually better than the automatic.

    Now concerning other stereos. The Altima even with Bose has the absolute worst FM reception I have ever seen; I was set to get a 6-speed Altima SE-R but the steror was so bad. Mazda with Bose is okay, but didn't sound as good to me as the 120 watt Accord. VW Monsoon/Dynaudio is an excellent stereo, but then you run into reliaiblity and dealer service problems. Haven't heard the Sonata stereo so I can't comment except that I once had a Hyundai as a rental car and the stereo seemed okay. Acural TL and TSX get Bose and they sound very good, but not that much better than the Accord. My latest gauge mark of stereo is in my old 1993 5-speed manual Lexus ES-300. If a stereo is not at least as good as its original untouched factory stereo then I don't consider it sufficient.

    Good Luck,

    Cruis'n in 6th :shades: ,

    MidCow

    P.S.- My choice would be the 6-speed Honda. If you have to have an auto then the 120 watt stereo isn't that bad and you could upgrade the speakers :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I would think Toyota, Nissan, Mazda et. al. would need to respond in kind to what Honda, Hyundai, and Subaru have done with the standard side curtains. But you never know. I don't recall hearing that Ford was making side curtains standard on the new Fusion/Zephyr, for instance.

    As for the horsepower of the '06 V6 going up while the fuel economy goes down--not exactly what we need right now, with gas prices inching up towards all-time highs in the U.S. :(
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    As for the horsepower of the '06 V6 going up while the fuel economy goes down--not exactly what we need right now, with gas prices inching up towards all-time highs in the U.S.
    I regret buying a V6 Accord now :(
    But its still fuel efficient. Maybe the 4cylinder is what i should have bought with the gas prices at all-time highs....

    Side Curtain Airbags will most likely (99%) be standard on the 07 Camry.
  • bjbird2bjbird2 Member Posts: 647
    My 02' Passat 1.8 T consistently gives me 33MPG on the highway and 26MPG around town, and with the turbo, it has plenty of power when needed. The big drawback is it requires premium (91 Octane) fuel. I've read that switching to regular will not only reduce acceleration, but also gas mileage.
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Why not give it a try and see what happens (as long as it won't harm the engine)?
  • fitguyfitguy Member Posts: 220
    I can save you the time and money: tried 87 octane in my (former) Passat 1.8T and it ran terrible, tried a couple of different brands, too. It did run ok on decent-quality 89, usually.
    And to ctalk- don't feel too bad about the accord V6- I traded my '03 I4 Accord that got consistant 33 hwy for an '04 Mazda6S V6, best it will get is 24 hwy. It's a lot more fun to drive, however- and at least they both run fine on good 'ol 87. :)
  • choe13choe13 Member Posts: 348
    http://www.edmunds.com/insideline/do/Drives/Comparos/articleId=106434

    I never thought the redsox would ever beat then yankees let alone win it all and now this. Maybe hell has frozen over or something, but we certainly do have a new midsize car king for now.

    Amazing car, so quiet and stylish, best car for the dollar

    Not to scheme up any more useless arguments, but i want to gloat since i will purchase this car soon

    ciao
  • 600kgolfgt600kgolfgt Member Posts: 690
    > switching to regular will not only reduce acceleration, but also gas mileage.

    That is correct. These engines are equipped with knock sensors which will automatically retard the ignition timing at the first sign of knocking (resulting in reduced power output), then advance the ignition until it reaches the normal timing interval. If you run regular, this process will occur more frequently than if you ran on premium.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    Even though the Accord V6 gets great mileage, its still costly with the prices out today. But, the 4 cylinder does not have 240hp, which is one of the things i love most about my Accord :)

    The inline 4 is great, especially at this time (gas prices at a all time high) but it lacks the exhilarating thrust you get from the V6 ;)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    Yes... in Honda's dreams.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The entire rear of the Sonata does not look like a Accord rear.

    The similarity is in the tail lights, mainly that the top half is red and the bottom half is white.

    But there's nothing special about that design.

    You know what, there have been so many cars now in history that you can always say that car X looks like car Y.

    It's happened with EVERY single car that is released today. Someone in some forum brings up the "fact" that this car copied this car, yada yada yada.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    not have a ping pong match AGAIN.

    Some people think the Sonata looks like the Accord.
    Some people think it doesn't.
    End of story :)
  • backybacky Member Posts: 18,949
    I never saw a Honda that had persons' heads covering up the dual chrome exhausts, as on this photo. Obviously that is unique to Hyundai.

    Anyway, now that Honda has changed the rear end of the Accord for '06, no one needs to say "Sonata looks like an Accord" any more. They can start talking about the cars Honda "copied" for its "new" rear end.
  • deluxedeluxe Member Posts: 29
    Thank you for additional info, MidCow. I do not listen to radio much at all, so my concern will not be reception- I was just comparing the cd audio. I agree with you on statement about factory radio quality.I guess I need to take another test drive...

    I am not a big fan of uprading anything on the new car, when I give 25k for a vehicle I do expect to receive good sound quality( does not have to be Mark Levinson or 12 speaker Dolby setup), and I do applaude Honda for making good packages with almost no options. I did have 04 Sonata on my trip to Chicago last year, and that thing was sounding horrible and weak-so maybe we did not have the same stereo( dont know if we had a same stereo-I dont want to sound like I am bashing Hynday, nothing against them).
  • nornenorne Member Posts: 136
    " They can start talking about the cars Honda "copied" for its "new" rear end."

    backy--Do you really think blind loyal honda followers would say anything negative about honda? ;)
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    Do you rally mean that? Have you read all Honda fourms and come to that conclusion?
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    ...themselves for the 2006 rear end change...as it looks VERY similar to the current Accord coupe and Acura TL from the rear.

    But we all know, the Accord coupe got inspiration from the Mercedes-Benz rear taillight design...

    But anyway the 2006 Sonata still looks like a 2003-04 Accord from the rear!

    :P

    Just kidding.
  • kingsalmonkingsalmon Member Posts: 97
    I hope the Sonata doesn't copy Honda and Toyota in advertising more horsepower than they actually have.
    I remember Hyundai got in trouble a couple years ago. I wonder is Toyo and Honda will get a free ride on this one. Hyundai had to pay dearly for their mistake. :cry:
  • maxamillion1maxamillion1 Member Posts: 1,467
    Its sad, but oh well, you even with its LOWER horsepower, the Accord LXV6 and EXV6 are still just as fast as the Nissan Altima with 250.
This discussion has been closed.