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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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Comments
OTOH, the stereo display in the 02-06 Camry, that I could see being reminiscent of an alarm clock, but that could go for most stereo displays (definitely inclusive of the Sonata's 80s Apple computer looking display).
Backy-
A) I doubt the Sonata's depreciation rate is going to improve significantly based on the fact that, as you state, there are significant incentives available on this redesigned, less than year on the market product, and the fact that Hyundai is doing a great job of selling to fleets. The Hertz at the Milwaukee airport alone has about 6 that I counted (just in the garage).
B)True. But its no fun to keep a car for 10 years!
C)Thats fair. Use Edmunds.com TCO and see which comes out as less expensive- A 2006 Sonata LX V6 with Premium Pkg or the 2006 Camry XLE + VSC and Side Airbags.
~alpha
You have got to be kidding. Please tell me where is the flair located on the 06 Accord? It's as bland as vanilla pudding Face it people, the Accord is is just as badly styled as the Camry. Saw two parked on my block, they seem to blend in well with all the other daily beaters out there. Nothing special about them. You want style? then look at Fusion or Madza6.
~alpha
Hyundai seems intent on buying market share in this segment. If the Sonata was priced the same as a CamCord why would you buy one? Not exactly a sterling reputation out there in the public's eye for Hyundai compared to Camry's reliability and Accord's aircraft cockpit-like precision.
Change the Hyundai name.... to like....uh....
By the way, did you know that Hyundai's chief designer and the Toyota Chief Designer meet regularly? Read about the J-Factor and K-Factor in automotive design..kinda interesting.
http://www.businessweek.com/globalbiz/content/feb2006/gb20060222_855408.htm
SAFETY ISSUES: I am concerned about the 40% less welds with the Hyundai as that is probably where the cost-cutting safety cage intrusion is compromised...but who knows? Let's see, unproven design, unproven engines, unproven quality and the biggy...unproven resale value.
However, if cheap is your thing instead of quality and you are looking for a throw-away auto, I do see that Hyundai is advertising leases for $189 a month ($2,000 down)...get a leased one and if it is a lousy auto, then dump it at the end of the lease.
V-6 Sonata models are STILL getting factory discounts of $3,000 ($2,000 for the 4 cylinder) as Hyundai seems to be dumping their excess Sonata inventory and their overbuilt V6.
No discounts announced on 2006 Toyota Camrys or Honda Accords yet, they can't build enough of them as it is...demand for the CamAcc is still tremendous where Hyundai seems to be having a clearance sale already!
~alpha
Pretty much no big changes. Price of the volume selling LE 4 5A rises $125, but includes Side Curtains and Brake Assist as standard now.
What I am surprised at is that Toyota did not disclaim the increases on the SE and XLE 4s as stating the additional standard equipment on both. For example, the price of the XLE 4 went up $1630, but the 2007 has everything the 2006 did, but adds power moonroof and alloys as standard (and a few minor items), which would account for $1230 of the increase, at current options prices.
~alpha
If you read the post, it was a tongue-in-cheek response to ontop's post, which ended with a "Period." It's silly when people end their posts with a "Period", as if that's the end to the discussion or something.
Next time, read the context of the post before you start going off on people's perceived importance of themselves.
Thanks.
Here is what I know. I've owned 15 cars in my life with 11 of those being imports. Everything from a 350Z to a Honda Element. My wife owns a 2004 Honda Accord EX-L 4cyl and I find it hard to believe that any of these cars are better overall. Keep in mind that I can't speak on the Hyundai because I've never driven one.
Interior-Typical Honda. Very quite, excellent control placement. Very good materials for this class.
Motor-It's hard to believe this thing only has 160hp. It runs smooth from start to finish and has very good pick-up. You can just set the cruise at 90 and let it go all day long. My wife had a Camry before the Accord and the Camry was nice and quiet but didn't feel half as strong even though it had similar hp.
Trans-No comlaints
Resale-This is where the Honda will really shine. After 50K miles, you will get in the Honda and everything will still feel and sound like new.
The Honda wins most of these comparisons because it doesn't do anything wrong and most things pretty good.
I've owned one other Accord in the past and I thought it was ok but these newer ones are pretty amazing for the $$$. Everytime I drive her car I tihnk to myself that it's a hell of a deal for the $$$.
If you read the post, it was a tongue-in-cheek response to ontop's post, which ended with a "Period." It's silly when people end their posts with a "Period", as if that's the end to the discussion or something.
My apologies...I didn't see the usual bold insert of the quote to which you were replying, hence my misunderstanding.
Do the Edmunds TCO calculations take into account all rebates? I don't think they do. What is the effect on TCO of the full $3000 in rebates on the Sonata LX V6?
As for owning a car for 10 years being no fun... it is if it's a good car! It's a lot of fun driving down the road in a car with no payments! I plan on keeping my two current Hyundais plus my next new car in my family for at least 10 years each--the better to take full advantage of the 10-year powertrain warranty!
That's so last month. :P
No wait, it came out earlier than that.
The NHSTA rating system has flaws. I'm not in the mood to elaborate again.
Wait, I found it.
"For one thing, even though forces on the dummies' heads are measured, they aren't considered for the "star" ratings. Secondly, NHTSA counts only forces on the thorax and pelvis toward the ratings, even though head injuries cause the most deaths in real-world side impact crashes. Finally, their barrier simulates the front end of a car, so it's not high enough to strike the dummies' heads directly, as would be true for a large truck or SUV. Side airbags are most beneficial in protecting the head, by interposing a cushion between the intruding object and the head.
So, wait until the IIHS releases their side tests -- much more informative." - 210delray
We're in luck! I believe the Sonata's IIHS crash score is coming out next month.
I'd hate to keep a car 10 years. How un-fun. Do you keep the same furniture, dishes, bedding, clothes etc that long cause they're paid for? If you're gonna keep a car 10+ years why visit boards like these and discuss new cars when you know you're not a buyer, just a looker?
Cars are like consumer goods. Good for 5 years then dump em for something new and shiny. Its fun.
If you notice, an Accord without side airbags received a 5 star rating in the rear side. While an Accord with side airbags received a 4 star. In the IIHS rating, the Accord without side airbags received a POOR. While the Accord with side airbags ended up with a GOOD rating.
Also, 2/3 of the Accord's individual scores were better than the Sonata's. One of which was the head injury.
Yes and No. Much of our furniture is over 30 years old (dining room and dressers) because we bought quality. China and silverware are about the same age. Pool table is 34 years old.
"Every day" dishes that get chipped or clothes that show signs of wear (or don't fit, lol) don't last near 10 years.
If it looks good and works well, why get rid of it just to get something new. If you don't want a car for more than 5 years, it sounds like you are in the market for a "throw away" car, because that is what you are doing, regardless of whatever a trade-in value may be.
I keep stuff as long as it hasn't worn out and still meets my needs. Why throw out perfectly good stuff? Been to a landfill lately? My first sofa lasted 20 years (it was a really good one), the 2nd over 15 (kids--more wear and tear).
As for why I visit boards like this--why do you care and why is it any of your business? Are you the Town Hall moderator now?
FWIW, I have purchased or leased six cars in the past nine years, and I'll be buying my next one as early as this fall--maybe I'll wait until next year though. Is that enough buying activity to satisfy you?
But once you've bought the shopping around fun here doesn't have to end. Most people on these boards probably aren't buyers anytime soon. But when they do buy you can be sure they'll be back online with a different outlook on vehicles, even tho another purchase isn't anytime soon.
I bought a new car and a minivan in the last few months ($$$$$$$) and still come back for the banter. Cars are fun. So is the banter.
But once you've bought the shopping around fun here doesn't have to end. Most people on these boards probably aren't buyers anytime soon. But when they do buy you can be sure they'll be back online with a different outlook on vehicles, even tho another purchase isn't anytime soon.
I bought a new car and a minivan in the last few months ($$$$$$$) and still come back for the banter. Cars are fun. So is the banter.
I completely agree, leadfoot. Many people (my father is one of them) like the thrill of driving something different every year or two. An example, in the last 12 years, HIS cars (not mom's) have consisted of:
1994 Lebaron Convertible GTC (sold b/c of tranny probs)
1995 Civic DX (wanted an Auto, this car was a manual)
1996 Sebring Convertible JX (Suspension probs, but loved it)
1998 Civic EX (His favorite, but I outgrew it riding in the back)
2000 Accord LX
2001 Accord LX (the 2000 was T-Boned, he got rid of it)
2002 CR-V LX
2003 Accord EX
2005 Accord EX (Current Car)
9 cars in 12 years, where as mom has had two cars in the same time-frame, a 1993 Accord EX and a 2000 Odyssey EX.
I don't know where I'll stand compared to them, but I do like change. For now, I've got a new 2006 and a 1996 that I go between. That seems to keep things interesting enough for me.
I love the banter, too. This stuff that we are doing right here.
http://www.usatoday.com/money/autos/reviews/healey/2006-02-24-camry_x.htm
A very mixed review of the new Camry, and does not corroborate at all the Car and Driver take on Toyota's stability control system. I'd tend to favor Car and Drivers criticism of the system, as compared to Healy's plaudits.
Additionally, the experience Healy had with the 6A in the test car differs from what was presented in the Motor Trend and Edmunds.com previews....
The following comments also seem disjointed:
"Exceptions to good taste: The wood still is fake, but there isn't a ton and, in the test car, it was light, like maple, instead of the dreadful orange or dark, dark brown Toyota has used.
And the green tone of the control panel — the plastic itself, not the illumination — seemed ridiculous rather than distinctive.
Leather seats looked great and felt good. Toyota's leather doesn't always sit as good as it looks, so that was a nice surprise."
So, did he like or dislike the fake wood? What green tint to plastics is he referring to? I can only think that he's pointing to the climate control knobs? And how is leather that looks great and feels good an "exception to good taste"?
He also makes the following comment:
"The rear seat provides generous leg and knee space, as good as some supposedly bigger cars. And the seat itself is comfortable."
But follows it up with:
"Complaints? But of course.
•Size. The '07 is actually smaller inside than the '06, despite a longer wheelbase and wider body. The differences are marginal but measurable, according to Toyota specifications. There's a half-inch less of headroom. The trunk's 10% smaller. Shoulder and hip room are only fractionally improved, even though the car is an inch wider. Total passenger space is down 0.3%."
Certainly, any opinion is a valid one, but I find his often contradictory and perplexing, not only in this review, but in others as well.
~alpha
If you have to swipe from Germans, guys, purloin Audi's lines.
For example, like Hyundai did with the Sonata.
The best definition of elegance is simplicity.
For example, like the radio controls of the Sonata, praised by CR in its review for their simplicity.
And the green tone of the control panel — the plastic itself, not the illumination — seemed ridiculous rather than distinctive.
I think he means the greenish tint of the translucent plastic on the center stack--which makes it look like a clock radio.
Overall, it seems to me like a positive review. He pointed out a few things that he didn't like and some problems he found on the pre-production tester. But his overall opinion is that the Camry won't relinquish its #1 standing in the market. Stating both the positive and negative of a car isn't contradictory to me, or perplexing. I actually agree with him on some of his points, e.g. I don't think the new styling is all that great, although it's an improvement over the current Camry.
P.S. His comment about "exceptions to good taste" was clearly aimed at the fake wood (I guess he expects real wood in a sub-$30k family car) and the greenish tone on the control panel, not the leather. But the formatting of the article could have made that clearer.
Dealers at Portland, OR, sell GLS V6 for $15,500 after rebates. You can't even buy DX Civic for that price.
New Camry front end is ugly, period. See, I can do it too! My point though, is that it is your opinion. Apparently, 360,000+ people per year think it is nice-enough looking to spend $18,000-$31,000 on. Actually, I believe someone posted where, without fleet sales, more private buyers actually purchased Accords than Camry's last year, b/c 14% (I think if I'm remembering well) of Camry sales were actually found to be sold to fleets.
There is no PERIOD in talking about style, it's purely in the eye of the beholder. I think Camry's from 1992-2006 look MUCH better outside than the new 2007 model. The interior is quite nice, though.
I agree a car is just another consumer item much like a pair of shoes BUT instead of dumping it after 5 years my goal is to keep it as a back up when the next new shiny wunder vehicle is in the shop for some rediculous problem.
I do agree that keeping the "old" car is a good way to do things, especially if it does not hold much resale value. My family did the same thing. I drove a 1996 Accord daily, and it now has 157,000 miles. I drive it in bad-weather, or where I know parking will be bad (Wal-Mart for example), and use the new car on other occasions. The '96 is only worth about $2,500 to trade in now (last offer I had on it was $2500), so its value is worth more by keeping it than taking the cash.
I knew Toyota was watering down the number for the Hybrid- geez, the Hybrid makes as much combined power as the last V6 and weighs not too too much more! Who internally clocked it at their 8.9 second time? Did (s)he weigh 450lbs?
~alpha
The Camry and Accord will have the best residual values, which is supposed to mean the lease should, therefore be cheaper. However, the Hyundai and Ford could have added incentives to make it a wash.
Since I would be driving over 15K miles per year, which offer the lowest prepaid excess miles and are they refundable if not used? I have read ranges from 8 cents a mile up to almost the same cost as paying the excess mileage penalty.
I have also heard that sometimes prepaid miles are refundable and sometimes not. Which offer refundable prepaid miles?
If I drove 60,000 miles in 3 years, the Hyundai would be the only one fully covered by the bumper to bumper warranty during the lease term. All the others would require the additional cost of an extended warranty unless I wanted to take my chances on paying for repairs on a leased car.
What would it cost for an extended warranty on the other cars that would give $0 deductible bumper to bumper coverage for at least 60,000 miles?
Costs other than gas and insurance would be the 36 month 15K per year lease costs plus cost of additional mileage charges, plus cost of any needed extended warranty, plus cost of maintenance (I assume that besides the regular scheduled maintenance, they would all need at least need "wear items" not covered by warranty such tires and brakes replaced at least once before 60K miles).
Not seeing much case for the Fusion since it would not have high residual like Toyota and Honda and also would not have included warranty coverage like the Hyundai Sonata.
After all these considerations, which should end up being the cheapest for a 3 year 60K mile lease?
Why not just talk to you local dealers and ask them to run the numbers, so you can compare? Maybe the lower up-front cost of the Sonata will outweigh the lower residual value.
From current market situations, I'd say the Hyundai will have the lowest residuals. Think about it like this, whe nit was introduced people payed full sticker at 20K, now you can get the same car at 16.5K and it has only been 6 months. Also look at your nearest Avis and you'll see that the Sonata has had serious fleet sales. The Fusion will be 3rd. It has had less fleet sales and far less rebates. It should be right along the Accord/Camry lines.
I thought that the bumper to bumper warranty on any would cover you for 3 years/ 60K miles but I could be wrong. With reliability where it is these days, I wouldn't even bother with the extended warranty if I was only keeping the car for 36 months.
I've seen lots of Fusions and Camrys in rental car fleets also.
~alpha
I am also considering other costs, such as the cost of purchasing additional miles beyond 15K per year, and the cost of, maintenance, purchasing an extended $0 deductible warranty covering the extra mileage and so on.
Not needing to purchase an extended warranty at added cost for the Sonata should also offset a lower residual.
Does anyone know what the manufacturers are charging for purchasing additional miles beyond 15K per year?
Define alot because Ford has defined the numbers of the Fusion fleet sales and they are low. Remember also that a rental car company can get a Fusion at full pricea as well. That is not a fleet sale. The Tuarus is Ford's fleet car. The 500 and Fusion are not going to be in the fleets heavily.
The Camry is 12% fleet. That is a whole lot of Camrys but I would say to you that the Sonata may be at a higher fleet percentage than the Camry and Fusion.
I wonder what what percentage of fleet sales Hyundai plans for the redesigned Sonata?
Camry @ 12% sounds a bit high to me but not certain. As for Sonata fleets, numbers are not readily available yet but it is much less than the previous Sonata. My best estimate would be a litle higher than Accords (again not certain until I get exact figures).