Actually the incentives on the Fusion and Milan, which are in the mid-sized class of cars, seem to have helped--sales are pretty strong. Also, let's not forget there are some other mid-sizers out there with some sizable incentives: big rebates and discounts on the Mazda6, big lease incentives on the Legacy/Outback, big discounts on the Accord and Camry (and even rebates on the Camry), big discounts and even rebates on the Altima, big rebates and discounts on the Galant etc. It's a tough market. Are there any mid-sized family sedans selling for list price these days?
Do you honestly believe incentives are what has caused GM & Ford's problems?
Or is it possible that there were better products available to the consumer at a lower price?
Other than the Union Contracts/cradle to grave benfits strangeling these great companies, do you think product quality may have had something to do with resale & reputation. Or, do you think incentives are the sole reason?
Don't you every buy anything on sale? If a department store normally sells a jacket for $120 and there is a sale on jackets for $85 do you wait for the sale to be over so you can pay full list price, thereby increasing the value of your jacket???
Update: just saw that Ford has added $1000 "down payment match" cash to the Fusion (maybe the Milan too, didn't check that), for a total of $1500 cash-to-consumer including the $500 rebate. There was an ad in my local paper for a Fusion with ABS for just over $15k--very much into Sonata territory, although at that kind of discounted price one can get a Sonata GL with side bags/curtains and VSC; the side bags/curtains would add $500-600 to the Fusion. The other thing Ford has going for it is its partner discount program, which Hyundai doesn't offer.
Do you honestly believe incentives are what has caused GM & Ford's problems?
Or is it possible that there were better products available to the consumer at a lower price?
I personally think the better products are definitely available. The problem with Ford and GM is that instead of making better products, they just lowered prices to compensate for mediocrity.
As far as the jacket reference goes, it almost works, except you fail to mention that Ford's "jackets" have had numerous quality problems over the years, and I mean more than a stuck zipper.
Honda and Toyota jackets on the other hand, while not necessarily the latest style, always keep their owners warm, and usually, you can't get their owners out of the jacket, even after many years.
I agree the problems with GM and Ford so back many years If you read the history of the industry it is plain arrogance and stupidity. Read Henry Ford Wheels for the world author Brinkley. Toyota is a hard bunch to deal with but in the really competitive market of today they can be handled
The IIHS will release a new report on crash safety of mid-sized cars this Sunday, March 5. NBC's Dateline will include coverage of this report. The report should also be posted on www.iihs.org. I am hoping the report will include results for cars such as the Fusion/Milan, Sonata, and maybe even the '07 Camry and the Azera.
Subaru Legacy has a great reputation and is usually talked about as being a contender to the Honda/Toyota twins.
Mazda is 40% owned by Ford and probably will be using Ford Engines for the next 20 years. I have a 2002 Ford Escape with the Duratec V6 and it is a hot engoine thatb has given me 60,000 miles of perfect engine service. The only thing crappy about the V6 is that it is so much fun to overdrive them.
Gee...2006 discoints on the SNOOZATA are already at $3,000 where Honda and Toyota still are selling as many as they can pump out...maybe they should just give the SNOOZATA away.
By any chance are you related to oldjoe or maybe a new psuedonym for oldjoe? :confuse: I looked at some of your posts and you seem to have oldjoe's fanatical devotion to Honda and disdain for anything Hyundai. seniorjose = oldjoe? Coincidence? Who knows. :confuse:
Humor the guy. Let him think he's tricking everyone.
But, you're right; it's the same style of broad brush slur. If one doesn't already own a Hyundai, there goes $1K of that $3K rebate. If one doesn't finance thru HMFC, there goes another $1K rebate. And if one buys a 4 cyl, that $1K rebate is reduced to $500.
So, seniorjose = oldjoe; yep. Could $3K = $500; yep. :surprise:
You failed to mention the Fusion had no side air curtain bags. Granted, I would think Ford would have done better with a new vehicle in a segment that is so competetive. Also, I hope Ford picks up on this and makes the side airbags standard in all models. This would be a very wise marketing move by Ford..
Just this wknd, Ford announced that Side Airbags and Side Curtains would be standard on Fusions, starting with September production.
We'll see how this changes the result. Acceptable, however, in the Frontal Test.... is unacceptable in my book, given that the 1995 Ford Taurus was one of the first vehicles to receive a "Good". Get it together, Ford!
And regarding the Sonata, it WAS indeed as most of us suspected... the seat failed in the original test, garnering a Poor rating. Kudos to Hyundai for quickly recalling the 36,000 affected samples, and receiving the top ranking with the fix. Was hoping for a "Good" in the side test, though...
Hyundai had a chance to hit a home run and settled for a double. Not the kind of clutch hitting they need to make up ground their pursuit of Honda and Toyota. Unfortunately, the side score won't be as easy to improve as the frontal score was--note that the problem is with the car's structural integrity. At least the back seat riders fared well.
The Fusion, OTOH, is an embarrassment to Ford. The standard side airbags and curtains are a good start (and long overdue), but they have to improve the frontal crash protection too.
Note though, that the Ford did earn an 'Acceptable' rating for structure in the side test, which is more than Hyundai could manage.
Assuming the side curtains improve the score to 'Good', between the two, it would then be the choice between an excellent performer in the frontal test coupled with a satsifactory permormance in the side (Sonata), or vice versa (Fusion).
I'd like to see Toyota to get the new Camry tested soon. Toyota's designs have been doing well in the side impact lately, and the Lexus IS garnered a side structure rating of 'Good', the company's first for a sedan. However, Toyota seems not to have paid enough attention to head restraint design, which is troubling.
Also Hyundai got downgraded on the head/neck injury (acceptable) while Ford got downgraded for leg/foot injury (poor) in the frontal test. Not sure that makes the Hyudai a better choice.
In any case, I think both of them are unacceptable to me if they can't get a "good" rating on front and side test.
I am well aware of those ratings and there are plenty of choices that have the good ratings and at least acceptable on the safety cage. Those are some of my criteria to get my money.
At least the Sonata did very well in the rear test. It had average scores. Albeit, I was expecting more from Hyundai.
The Fusion's results are very disappointing. They should have realized that having standard side/curtain airbags is a must in this category.
Judging from the crash tests, Toyota and Honda seem to have safety right. With the new Civic's score, I have no doubt that Honda's new vehicles will score very well.
ALthough Hyundai didn't knock it out of the park like Backy said, there scores are very respectful. As a Hyundai owner I am quite pleased they fixed the seat problem so quickly, although mine was OK since it was built in Nov., it gives me reassurance that if something is unsafe in my vehicle then Hyundai will fix the problem quickly.
Maybe I mis-read the IIHS scores. I thought I saw that the Sonata got "good" scores (best possible) for rear-seat side impact, but not very good for the front seat (possible pelvic injury etc.)
The Legacy and Passat are much newer designs than the Accord and Camry that have been tested by the IIHS. The '07 Camry will be a better indication of Toyota's "rightness" on crash safety, as is the '06 Civic for Honda (with its Good/Good/Good score).
I could be totally wrong but, my theory is that a better safety cage rating means there is still some protection to spare. So that in a crash that was somewhat more severe than that used for the IIHS test, you will still come out okay.
The Accord is actually now in its FOURTH model year. Also interesting to note that the outgoing Camry, which debuted for 2002 in August of 2001.... managed an Acceptable for Structure in the Side Impact....
Saw a Verona the other day and loved it. The price was awesome too. Looks like the Japanese can play the price game against Hyundai and Kia too. Rather have a Japanese car vs Korean any day.
The only problem with your statement is that the Suzuki Verona is built in Korea by Daewoo. And, I would much rather have a Hyundai than a Daewoo product any day of the week. Two of the three automobiles Suzuki markets in the country are built by Daewoo.
Re. Daewoo . . .
The Daewoo Magnus is a mid-sized sedan sold by GM Daewoo positioned to compete with the Hyundai Sonata. It is manufactured in South Korea for GM Daewoo Auto & Technology (GMDAT) by Daewoo Incheon Motor Company at its Bupyeong facility.
The previous-generation model was the Daewoo Leganza (model V100); it was produced from the 1997 to 2002 model years. The Leganza provided the basis for the current Daewoo Magnus (V200), which has been in production since the 2000 model year and was known as Evanda in Europe. Following the establishment of Chevrolet Europe, all Daewoos were rebranded Chevrolet in 2005.
The Evanda comes equipped with the Daewoo developed "XK6" inline-6 engine or a Holden-built 2.0L straight-four carried over from the Leganza. ItalDesign of Italy was resposible for the styling and design of both the Leganza and Magnus. However, the upcoming V250 was styled in Korea by GM Daewoo.
The Evanda is also badge-engineered as the Suzuki Verona in North America and Chevrolet Epica in other markets.
And, most importantly, I don't think you want the valve lifter problems inherent in most Verona's Inline 6 engine.
gee...I got a new internet provider and changed my login id. What of it? I have owned 17 new cars and probably about the same number of used cars...and the Hyundai was the worst and most expensive to upkeep of any of them...my thoughts are ditto for my wife, my son. my neighbors...so be it! I do npot see many, if any, Hyundais in the senior citizen areas, but Honda and especially Toyota are selling at full price like the proverbial hotcakes. Just try to get any discount on either of them in South Florida!
With the up-to-$1500 rebates on the '06 Camry, plus readily-available dealer discounts on the Camry and Accord (in other markets) I'd say those South Florida dealers are taking the senior citizens and others down there for a ride! Especially since it appears at least some Miami Toyota dealers are advertising those big rebates on Camrys on their web sites. :surprise:
I think the senior citizens have a tough enough time buying foreign cars anyway. From what I've seen, if they finally take the plunge, its for a Toyota or Honda. Not the Hyundais.
I think the senior citizens have a tough enough time buying foreign cars anyway. From what I've seen, if they finally take the plunge, its for a Toyota or Honda. Not the Hyundais.
I wouldn't be so sure. I'm noticing a lot of Sonata owners are senior's, and the Sonata is their first "Mom car".
plus readily-available dealer discounts on the Camry and Accord
Umm, like what? There are rebates and discounts on Accords where you live? Lucky you...My 2006 EX cost me $22,200 (off of $23,800), I haven't seen ANY finance deals or cash back from Honda lately, especially not since the accord was refreshed for 2006. I have seen lease deals for the CR-V though.
The advertised Miami prices are tons of miles away from where I lived in the Boca Raton area...nobody wants to drive that far just for service. Buy local and give your local dealer the business. somehow those Miami prices are for only a certain serial number...etc.
Comments
Or is it possible that there were better products available to the consumer at a lower price?
Other than the Union Contracts/cradle to grave benfits strangeling these great companies, do you think product quality may have had something to do with resale & reputation. Or, do you think incentives are the sole reason?
Don't you every buy anything on sale? If a department store normally sells a jacket for $120 and there is a sale on jackets for $85 do you wait for the sale to be over so you can pay full list price, thereby increasing the value of your jacket???
Or is it possible that there were better products available to the consumer at a lower price?
I personally think the better products are definitely available. The problem with Ford and GM is that instead of making better products, they just lowered prices to compensate for mediocrity.
As far as the jacket reference goes, it almost works, except you fail to mention that Ford's "jackets" have had numerous quality problems over the years, and I mean more than a stuck zipper.
Honda and Toyota jackets on the other hand, while not necessarily the latest style, always keep their owners warm, and usually, you can't get their owners out of the jacket, even after many years.
Accord: 25,285 - 24,222
Camry: 25,271 - 31,183
Altima: 20,080 - 19,044
Sonata: 13,741 - 9,762
Fusion: 9,143 - 0
Passat: 4,084 - 2,247
Camry: 27,354 - 31,874
I was reading the
* NORTH AMERICAN BUILT VEHICLES
Mazda is 40% owned by Ford and probably will be using Ford Engines for the next 20 years. I have a 2002 Ford Escape with the Duratec V6 and it is a hot engoine thatb has given me 60,000 miles of perfect engine service. The only thing crappy about the V6 is that it is so much fun to overdrive them.
By any chance are you related to oldjoe or maybe a new psuedonym for oldjoe? :confuse: I looked at some of your posts and you seem to have oldjoe's fanatical devotion to Honda and disdain for anything Hyundai.
But, you're right; it's the same style of broad brush slur. If one doesn't already own a Hyundai, there goes $1K of that $3K rebate. If one doesn't finance thru HMFC, there goes another $1K rebate. And if one buys a 4 cyl, that $1K rebate is reduced to $500.
So, seniorjose = oldjoe; yep. Could $3K = $500; yep. :surprise:
Accord GOOD GOOD POOR
Camry GOOD GOOD Marginal
Sonata GOOD Acceptable GOOD
Ford Fusion did not do well.
Now, standards are higher. It isn't that the Fusion is more dangerous, it's that the others are that much better!
We'll see how this changes the result. Acceptable, however, in the Frontal Test.... is unacceptable in my book, given that the 1995 Ford Taurus was one of the first vehicles to receive a "Good". Get it together, Ford!
And regarding the Sonata, it WAS indeed as most of us suspected... the seat failed in the original test, garnering a Poor rating. Kudos to Hyundai for quickly recalling the 36,000 affected samples, and receiving the top ranking with the fix. Was hoping for a "Good" in the side test, though...
~alpha
The Fusion, OTOH, is an embarrassment to Ford. The standard side airbags and curtains are a good start (and long overdue), but they have to improve the frontal crash protection too.
True, but at least they didn't strike out!
Assuming the side curtains improve the score to 'Good', between the two, it would then be the choice between an excellent performer in the frontal test coupled with a satsifactory permormance in the side (Sonata), or vice versa (Fusion).
I'd like to see Toyota to get the new Camry tested soon. Toyota's designs have been doing well in the side impact lately, and the Lexus IS garnered a side structure rating of 'Good', the company's first for a sedan. However, Toyota seems not to have paid enough attention to head restraint design, which is troubling.
~alpha
In any case, I think both of them are unacceptable to me if they can't get a "good" rating on front and side test.
Keeping that thought in mind, check out these results for mid-size moderately priced cars from the IIHS web site.
IIHS Mid-size Results
You may have to eliminate a few other cars as well. Especially if they don't have side air bags.
http://www.iihs.org/ratings/rating.aspx?id=572
Fusion was "acceptable" on that sub rating.
It had average scores.
Albeit, I was expecting more from Hyundai.
The Fusion's results are very disappointing. They should have realized that having standard side/curtain airbags is a must in this category.
Judging from the crash tests, Toyota and Honda seem to have safety right. With the new Civic's score, I have no doubt that Honda's new vehicles will score very well.
I'd say VW and Subaru are the ones who really "have safety right" in the moderate priced midsize category.
Nop, you read it correctly. Funny that the Accord's three year old design can get all "good" scores in both front and rear seats.
True, but its structure/safety cage rating was only marginal, same as the Sonata's.
~alpha
Re. Daewoo . . .
The Daewoo Magnus is a mid-sized sedan sold by GM Daewoo positioned to compete with the Hyundai Sonata. It is manufactured in South Korea for GM Daewoo Auto & Technology (GMDAT) by Daewoo Incheon Motor Company at its Bupyeong facility.
The previous-generation model was the Daewoo Leganza (model V100); it was produced from the 1997 to 2002 model years. The Leganza provided the basis for the current Daewoo Magnus (V200), which has been in production since the 2000 model year and was known as Evanda in Europe. Following the establishment of Chevrolet Europe, all Daewoos were rebranded Chevrolet in 2005.
The Evanda comes equipped with the Daewoo developed "XK6" inline-6 engine or a Holden-built 2.0L straight-four carried over from the Leganza. ItalDesign of Italy was resposible for the styling and design of both the Leganza and Magnus. However, the upcoming V250 was styled in Korea by GM Daewoo.
The Evanda is also badge-engineered as the Suzuki Verona in North America and Chevrolet Epica in other markets.
And, most importantly, I don't think you want the valve lifter problems inherent in most Verona's Inline 6 engine.
See you there!
My Honda comrade?
I think the senior citizens have a tough enough time buying foreign cars anyway. From what I've seen, if they finally take the plunge, its for a Toyota or Honda. Not the Hyundais.
I wouldn't be so sure. I'm noticing a lot of Sonata owners are senior's, and the Sonata is their first "Mom car".
Umm, like what? There are rebates and discounts on Accords where you live? Lucky you...My 2006 EX cost me $22,200 (off of $23,800), I haven't seen ANY finance deals or cash back from Honda lately, especially not since the accord was refreshed for 2006. I have seen lease deals for the CR-V though.
Your thoughts?
Discounts, yes--where I live, and where many others live. Check out the Accord Prices Paid discussion if you don't believe me.
I never said there were rebates on Accords. Please re-read my post.