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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

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Comments

  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Um, Fusion is assembled in a Ford plant in Mexico, so except for the Ford US components shipped to Mexico for assembly into Fusions, the above off topic arguments are at least partially moot.
  • tlongtlong Member Posts: 5,194
    I agree the playing field is not exactly level. One particular sore spot is our exorbitantly high corporate tax structure.

    Since GM is not making money, how can they have income taxes affecting their competitiveness?

    I don't think this is the problem. Drive their cars and you'll know.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    It all about where the profits end up, the home-base of the manufacturer. In this case, the USA.

    But, let's talk about cars. What does anyone think about Lincoln going to letter names; MKZ, MKX and MKS for their new line-up of vehicles?
  • rparisrparis Member Posts: 368
    I drove each of these vehicles; 6 cylinders models. All are nice. The Milan is less expensive than the other vehicles, however, I think the interior and some design of the Honda and Camry are a bit nicer, but do no know if it is worth thousands of dollars more. Any thoughts?
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Letters are OK with me. I didn't care for the Zephyr name anyways as it just seems too quaintly old fashioned. I am also old enough to remember the not so great Mercury Zephyr from the late 70's-early 80's, so it taints my perception of the name.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    The V6 in the Milan is the Duratec 3.0L a very tried and true engine putting out 221 hp and getting very good fuel economy especially since Ford mated it with the 6-speed automatic transmission.

    The platform is a stretched version of the Mazda 6, which is also a tried and true platform.

    They're all good cars. The Milan stands out in a crowd since its design is brand new.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    I just wonder what happens when they use up all of the MK_?
    Since they have selected three so far, S, X and Z, that gives them 23 more to choose from.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    MKZ, MKX, MKS...

    Un-original, and since Ford has been stressing "Buy American", Zephyr and Aviator sounds so much American and original than those above names.

    And on that note, great planning on Ford's end - switching from Zephyr to MKZ in such a short period. They should have just waited and released the MKZ with 3.5L in the first place. Some consumers will undoubtedly become confused when the MKZ drops.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    "Some consumers will undoubtedly become confused when the MKZ drops."

    Do you really think consumers care? If the car looks good, runs great and the price is right, I think most won't even notice.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Don't under-estimate consumers; most of them are smart shoppers and they genearlly do a lot of reserach before even stepping onto the dealer's lot. And yes, I believe some consumers would become confused.

    By the way, in my opinion, I wish they would have done something with the tail of the MKZ. If that's not two of the largest taillight sections, the I might be seeing things :)

    As for the segment it competes in, very tough segment to break through. Quite a few I would put in front of the MKZ, actually. But, I digress, as this is not exactly the correct thread to be discussing the MKZ :)
  • lightfootfllightfootfl Member Posts: 442
    Seems to me that the Lincoln "Zephyr" went back a lot farther than the 70's/80's. Try thinking about the 30's/40's or somewhere thereabouts. Yes, it is old but they are trying to reach back to when the name indicated quality. Unfortunately just using the name doesn't bring the desired results.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    "Unfortunately just using the name doesn't bring the desired results."

    The car is actually selling quite well, especially this month with its lease deals. Ford isn't changing the name because of poor sales, it was an overall corporate decision for future products.
  • booyahcramerbooyahcramer Member Posts: 172
    Oh ...OK.

    Nobody around here is buying em .
  • jeffyscottjeffyscott Member Posts: 3,855
    ...he said he never drove it before he bought it. Why in the world would anyone buy a vehicle without driving it and seeing how it "fits" them?

    Yeah, isn't that nuts. I read a statistic on that once, I don't remember the figure but it was a really surprising percentage of people who buy without a test drive.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Zephyr (soon-to-be MKZ) US sales to date:

    February: 1,874
    January: 2,692
    December: 2,129
    November: 1,652
    October: 1,204
    -End Data-
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Is this good? Both Lexus entries individually (new IS, outgoing ES) outsell these figures... though I believe these are about what the Acura TSXs numbers are (the better month's anyway)

    ~alpha
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    TSX sales numbers are double those for the Zephyr. Check out link title
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    Since the Fusion, Milan and Zephyr are all built at the same plant, Ford has to adjust the production mix based on what's selling. Right now, the Fusion is hot and the mix is slanted towards it. But, the best way to look at the early success of a vehicle is the number of days on dealer lots. Right now the Zephyr days' supply, nationally, is around 30 days. That's not too bad.
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    TSX sales is actually about the same as the Zephyr/MKZ, but TSX doesn't exactly compete with the Zephyr, that job belongs to the TL. TL does outsell Zephyr/MKZ roughly by 2-1, on a monthly basis.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    I like the Zephyr. The styling is great, the interior is awesome and the power, for me, is just alright. When they put the 3.5L V6 rated at 250 hp and offer all-wheel drive, later this year, I believe it will be more competition for the TL and G35. But, from an American car comparison, I like it much better than the Cadillac CTS.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    "When they put the 3.5L V6 rated at 250 hp and offer all-wheel drive, later this year, I believe it will be more competition for the TL and G35. But, from an American car comparison, I like it much better than the Cadillac CTS."

    Problem with that is that by the time the 3.5 comes in; the G will be a G37 (3.7l) and TL will also probably have a minor power increase, leaving it trailing again.

    Of the Fusion/Milan/Zephyr triplets, to me, the Fusion looks the best value, in addition to having the best looks (IMHO).
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Problem with that is that by the time the 3.5 comes in; the G will be a G37 (3.7l) and TL will also probably have a minor power increase, leaving it trailing again.

    Yep. I've been hearing about this "awesome" new Ford 3.5L for a while now; when 250 horsepower would have put all of its cars towards the head of the pack. The problem is, that was 2 years ago. Now, a 3.5L that makes 250 horsepower is OLD news...they need 280-300 hp to lead the pack...Shoot, even an Odyssey minivan had 240 hp out of 3.5L since 2002, and Chrysler had 250 horsepower out of its 3.5L in the late 1990s with its 300M sedan.

    Get with it, Ford; you're falling behind.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I will say that I am interested in Nissan's re-rating their engines to be SAE certified in power and torque output. Honda and Toyota have already done this, so we know the real ratings, for example, on the Avalon's engine are indeed 268 horses, 248 foot-pounds.

    As for Nissan's 3.5L... who knows?

    ~alpha
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    Nissan doing this would likely put them much further behind in the Avalon/Maxima race and the Altima/Camry race.
  • ctalkctalk Member Posts: 646
    I've been hearing about this "awesome" new Ford 3.5L for a while now; when 250 horsepower would have put all of its cars towards the head of the pack.

    The Ford Fusion isn't getting this engine, right? It would have been great if the Fusion had a HP increase. I find the Fusion's engine to be underpowered when compared to the Accord/Sonata/Altima etc.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    On the contrary, I don't think there would be a substantial drop in the Nissan V6; it always felt the most powerful while driving (probably due to the torque); I would be surprised if their rating dropped.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    The only engine they did re-rate... the 4.5L in the FX45... lost about 20 horses. If you'll be surprised the ratings will drop, I'd bet my house that you should count on being "surprised".

    ~alpha
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    If the 3.5 lost anywhere near 20 horses, I sure would be surprsied, though not enough to bet my house (which is owed by a mortgage company)
  • thegraduatethegraduate Member Posts: 9,731
    The 3.5 will lose different amounts across the board, because of the differences in specific tuning (from Altima, to G35, to Murano, to Quest, to Fx35...all are differently tuned.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    Actually, the re-rated 2006 FX45 gained 5 horses to 320 hp.

    The 2005 FX45 was rated at 315 hp.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    I thought it was rated at 335 when it came. If not, I stand corrected (and I'll no longer bet my house :))

    ~alpha
  • goodegggoodegg Member Posts: 905
    The mortgage company doesn't own the equity in your home, unless of course, you don't pay and they foreclose.

    Also its likely the mortgage company isn't even owed the money they lent you so to speak, since they've probably sold the 'loan' but service it for the ultimate lender who bought the loan.
  • dusteddusted Member Posts: 2
    Hi,
    Newbie alert. I know this discussion has sort of drifted off the title, but I was wondering if anyone here owns a Fusion and if they like it. My computer phobic friend was asking me about them and I thought this forum might be a good place to ask. I guess getting the optional side airbags is almost a must, but I was wondering if taking a risk on a new Ford was at least worth considering.
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    Since Alpha has declined to bet his house; I will not talk about my equity!!!

    On topic, one of my colleagues bought a Zephyr; I saw it up close. I still like the Fusion more.
  • jrock65jrock65 Member Posts: 1,371
    The FX45 has always been 315 hp, until the 2006 model.
  • driverdmdriverdm Member Posts: 505
    "TSX sales is actually about the same as the Zephyr/MKZ, but TSX doesn't exactly compete with the Zephyr, that job belongs to the TL. TL does outsell Zephyr/MKZ roughly by 2-1, on a monthly basis. "

    It depends on how you look at it. The TSX is Acura's entry level sedan. The pricing and positioning are very close to the Zephyr. I don't know if I'd compare it to a TL. A TL starts at $33K, a TSX starts at at $28K ($27,890 to be exact). A Zephyr slides in at 29K. We all know that transaction prices for Acura are basically identical to MSRP while the Lincoln can be had almost anywhere across the country for $27K to $28K starting. So again, it depends.

    -driver
  • joe97joe97 Member Posts: 2,248
    Consumers cross-shop between Zephyr and TL because they are about the same size; while TSX (which is one level down size wise) competes with the likes of S40, 9-3 and others. In my opinion, price similiarities do not necesscary translate into cars being in the same competing class.
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    You might do better asking in the Ford Fusion/Mercury Milan discussion than here. Some actual owners post there. I am not one, but it might be one in 4-5 years when I am ready to sell my Taurus.

    I can tell you the V-6 in a Fusion will likely have more than enough power for you. I have the Duratech V-6 in my Taurus and it has plenty of power for all but the most dedicated leadfoots, and the Fusion version is rated at slightly high power levels.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    I am purchasing a 4-cylinder 5-speed in the spring. Drove several. The 6-cylnder is a lot of fun to drive, too. I will disagree with a previous poster who said is it underpowered. It definitely is not. (They probably didn't drive it, just don't like domestic cars, I guess.) The V6 is mated to a 6-speed automatic, which the imports do not have (Accord, Camry or Sonata.)

    I liked the base engine because the stick makes driving it a blast. Plus, the price is awesome. Around $19,000 for a 4-cylinder, with upgraded audiophile stereo system and 17" rims. If only I could get the 2007-model with the iPod plug-in radio. That won't be out until September. Plus, the 2007 will have side-curtain air bags standard, if that is important to you. I won't be adding them to the one I buy in the spring. Just not that important to me.
  • njeraldnjerald Member Posts: 689
    POWER is relative to what you are used to/what you want!!!!!
  • 03accordman03accordman Member Posts: 671
    For 19k you could buy a very nicely equipped Sonata V6 (guess you haven't driven one, just don't like imports especially if they are made the the good old US of A, I guess)
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    "The V6 is mated to a 6-speed automatic, which the imports do not have (Accord, Camry or Sonata.)"

    The Camry that is on sale now, has a 6 speed automatic.

    ~alpha
  • badgerfanbadgerfan Member Posts: 1,565
    Well, for Toyota, that gives them one more shift point to have a hard time dealing with. From what I have read Toyota sure has had a lot of trouble designing a 5 speed automatic that can make up it's mind.

    Are the 07 Camries on the lots already?
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Correction: All Camry V6's 268 hp are mated to the 6sp AT
  • kdhspyderkdhspyder Member Posts: 7,160
    Well, for Toyota, that gives them one more shift point to have a hard time dealing with. From what I have read Toyota sure has had a lot of trouble designing a 5 speed automatic that can make up it's mind.

    Are the 07 Camries on the lots already?


    Avalon 5spd searching question ( 1st iteration ) apparently has been resolved.

    '07's on the lots now for 2 weeks. The V6/6spd seems to be well accepted with just a few initial reactons.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    How cynical of you. Actually, so far in MT and here on Edmunds.com, the 6A in the Camry - which is not at all related to the 5A in previous versions- has been lauded for its smoothness.

    Also, Toyota's Camry Press Release directly addressed the noted shortcomings of the 5A used in V6 models.

    "Harnessing this engine's output is an all-new six-speed automatic transmission that uses 21 percent fewer parts than the conventional five-speed automatic transmission it replaces. This new transmission, which can be shifted sequentially, relies upon a newly developed gear train that uses a Ravigneaux-type compound planetary gear for reduced size, weight and friction.

    This new transmission also uses a quick-response, low-friction clutch pack for enhanced fuel economy; an ultra-flat, low-inertia torque converter for high transmission efficiency; a set of high-response, low-slip clutch packs and new electronic and hydraulic control systems that incorporate an intelligent shift control that learns driver's driving style and selects gears based on that style.

    As a result of this development, transmission kickdown response was cut to 0.5 seconds, more than twice as fast as the response of the transmission this new one replaces."

    Don't be a hater just because the Fusion 221 horse Fusion V6 could barely outrun the 190 horse last generation Camry mated to the less than optimal 5A (Dec 05, Car and Driver), or because the new Camry V6 will trounce the Fusion in acceleration while still returning better MPG numbers..

    ;)
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    The Fusion is a mid-sized family sedan. It has plenty of power.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    I understand that the '07 model has a 6-speed, I was comparing '06 models. Thanks for the correction.
  • bitusabitusa Member Posts: 60
    Hey, dusted,

    My recommendation for you is to go out and drive a couple of the mid-sized sedans. Obviously, if you want to smoke other dads with their families on the way to Chili's, or race someone else with their family on the way home from church, the Fusion may not have enough power for you. I believe will be satisfied with the V6 power and smoothness of the 6 speed transmission. But, that's just me. I guess I try and put my car purchases into perspective as to what I'm using it for.

    Also, keep in mind that Car and Drive picked the Fusion #2 ahead of the Sonata and '06 model Camry, just behind the Accord as their choice. Apparently, 0 - 60 times didn't necessarily persuade them to not like the Fusion. They know these vehicles are family sedans.
  • alpha01alpha01 Member Posts: 4,747
    Good point about Car and Driver. Do note, however, the Fusion may have placed #2 behind the Accord, but it wasnt "just behind".... it was about 15 points down in the scoring behind the Accord, which walked away with an easy victory. That noted, the 5 year old '06 Camry finished 3 points below the brand new Sonata, and 5 points below the brand new Fusion....

    Really though, I doubt you'd go wrong with ANY of the four.

    ~alpha
This discussion has been closed.