Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread

bitusa

alpha,

I think you're dead on. All four are great choices if you're looking for a mid-sized sedan. Beyond that, beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

badgerfan

I wasn't being cynical, just had to take a tweak at Toyota. Sometimes with all the plaudits Toyota gets, one would think they walk on water.

Yeh, Toyota's probably got a winner in their 3.5 L V-6, but horsepower is only a part of the equation, and once you get to 200 Hp and above, the returns are diminishing, at least to me.

bitusa

Personally, don't like Hyundai's or Kia's. Kia's are the worst quality vehicles sold in the US. Practically every dependability study says so. Hyundai's vehicle quality is much better than Kia, but overall, still below industry average. But, I will agree, getting better.

Regarding, "Made in the USA", Hyundai profits on their vehicles sold in the US go back to Korea. In comparison, Ford vehicles assembled in Mexico are shipped to the US for sale in the US with profits remaining the US. Anyone who makes a big deal about a Mexican-made Ford not being a domestic car just doesn't get it.

badgerfan

Plus a lot of USA made components go down to Mexico for assembly into the Fusion, so the USA content probably isn't much different than a Camry or Honda assembled in the USA.

03accordman

"Regarding, "Made in the USA", Hyundai profits on their vehicles sold in the US go back to Korea. In comparison, Ford vehicles assembled in Mexico are shipped to the US for sale in the US with profits remaining the US. Anyone who makes a big deal about a Mexican-made Ford not being a domestic car just doesn't get it"

So you are not concerned about the thousands of jobs lost because of overseas assembly but only the share holders making more money!!!!

Fact is, anyone who makes substandard, uncompetitive product will be phased out of the market. Cars like the Fusion hold great promise and I hope Ford has enough sense to get the European Focus here. Just do not understand why this 'domestic' manufacturer keeps it best cars away from our country.

Karen_S

A magazine reporter is hoping to talk with some Fusion owners. Please respond to jfallon@edmunds.com no later than Wednesday, March 29, 2006 containing your daytime contact information and a few words about your experience with the vehicle.

Thanks,
Jeannine Fallon
Corporate Communications
Edmunds.com

bitusa

Ford has some great vehicles overseas, i.e. Focus, Galaxy. Ranger. I just don't know how cost competitive they could remain shipping them here and if they have capacity to build enough to make it worth it. I would have to guess Ford management has looked into that.

kdhspyder

Have to agree after 17 yrs of driving 4c Toyota's, Honda's and Fords, with a few domestic V6 years thrown in.

kdhspyder

Regarding, "Made in the USA", Hyundai profits on their vehicles sold in the US go back to Korea. In comparison, Ford vehicles assembled in Mexico are shipped to the US for sale in the US with profits remaining the US. Anyone who makes a big deal about a Mexican-made Ford not being a domestic car just doesn't get it.

This is way off topic and way off base as well. See 'Buying American Cars:...' thread. Briefly a $18000 Hyundai made in Alabama generates about 95% of its revenue to the economy here in the US ( $17000+ ) with maybe $1000 as profit which might go back to Korea. $17000 stays in the US / $1000 goes to Korea ( actually it goes to Hyundai shareholders all over the world ).

OTOH on the Fusion ( with 30% NA content ) at $20000 likely generates $14000+ to the Mexican economy and maybe $6000 to the US economy.

Now which is better for us here?

joe97

Pertaining to Hyundai/Kia's quality, as you mentioned, both are improving at paces faster than many had originally thought they would. I remember Hyundai's chairman (or maybe a top official) had said the automaker has been working hard to dedicate quality as an obession (and from the latest new vehicles released, it seems to be paying off).

Pertaining to this thread though, the Sonata has been very much a quality vehicle, top of the crop, actually. If I recall correctly, it has scored consistently in the top three, on more than one occasion, in the midsize category of JDPower IQS (initial quality) and VDS (vehicle dependability). Moreover, CR awarded the Sonata as the car with fewest problems (from all cars) in 2005. These and more would be good indications as to Hyundai's progression. Sonata especially, has been a quality and realible car, and I would assume the trend will continue for the new model; as well as the entire lineup, which all have or will be revamped in a few months.

explorerx4

the post you quote makes no sense to me. for one thing, mexico is part of NA. i think there is some enron accounting going on with the hyundai numbers mentioned.

maxamillion1

A sneak peak at the 07 Altima...per AutoWeek.com

Really...reminds me of the 05 sitting in my driveway. I hear the interior is ALL new though...
Photo Courtsey of Autoweek.com

Tails are different, grab-type door handles..etc. etc. A little under a month, and we'll see it fully...along with the 07 Maxima.

All of ya'll know I have a soft spot in my heart for Nissan.

thegraduate

i think there is some enron accounting going on with the hyundai numbers mentioned.

Based on...?

goodegg

Consumers cross-shop between Zephyr and TL because they are about the same size

This consumer didn't even think about a Zephyr before buying a TL. I don't think many other recent TL purchasers did either.

kdhspyder

the post you quote makes no sense to me. for one thing, mexico is part of NA.

It is and it isnt... UAW accounting.

I agree with you it is part of NA geographically but under the laws passed by Congress requiring NA content to be shown on the vehicles it specifically includes only the US and Canada. Why you ask? Because the UAW and CUAW made an agreement to report it this way. There is no Mexican UAW so it's not included in 'NA content' labels.

Curious but true. Look at the Fusion label ( I did tonight ).
It specifically states
US and Canadian content 30%
Non US & C content mainly from Mexico
Transmission from Japan

backy

The NHTSA frontal crash test scores are in for the Azera, and they are pretty interesting: the worst NHTSA frontal scores in Hyundai's car lineup, and worse than most of its competition:

http://www.safercar.gov/Index2.cfm

ctalk

That's odd.

I wonder how the Azera will do in the IIHS crash test.
It makes me wonder...does Hyundai have its safety issues in place?
They certainly have all the latest the safety features, but that doesn't mean it is the car is safe.

dusted

Thanks for the article reference. The discussion seems to be revolving around the Accord, the Fusion, and the Altima.

-Accord V6 EX has the long track record and the everything about it is nice. It is also as common as dirt and just seems to say, "The practical car." I don't think those last two should be big considerations, but they are there.

-Altima 3.5 SE has the most kick from the engine and is probably the most fun to drive. It also turned out to be much nicer inside than expected.

-Fusion 3.0 SEL is nice on the inside, but not as nice as the other two. It is lower powered than the others, but seems to have enough for what it will be used for. It is also several grand cheaper then either of the other two. It is however a brand new product and more of a gamble reliability wise.

backy

Accord V6 EX has the long track record and the everything about it is nice.

Well, it's a great car but not perfect. The styling is bor-ing and the ride noisy, with every little bump felt. Also for those who like ESC, it is standard on the V6s but not available on the I4s like it is on cars like the Camry and Sonata (lack of ESC is an issue for the Altima and Fusion also). But the most not-nice thing is the sticker price, compared to competitors like the Fusion and Sonata. Still, many people have no problems paying that premium to get a car with the plusses of the Accord. It will be real interesting to see how it does against the new Camry and Altima.

alpha01

Its interesting that the Azera achieved the 4 star rating and not five, but I dont think its a big point of contention, at least not for me- 4 or 5 stars are still very good showings, and I'm much more interested in the structural performance- and injury ratings- on the IIHS tests. In terms of those, I think the Azera will do reasonably well, judging from the Sonata's positive (but not class leading) performance.

~alpha

zzzoom6

ctalk

These numbers were surprising.

Head Tramua:
2006 Hyundai Azera- 698/389
2006 Hyundai Sonata- 268/278

Chest Deceleration:
2006 Hyundai Azera - 45/48
2006 Hyundai Sonata- 43/39

backy

I hope you are right. It would be a big blow to Hyundai (and Azera owners) should Hyundai's flagship not receive top-notch IIHS scores, especially with all the hype from Hyundai's marketing about the Azera's "class leading safety." On the plus side, discounts on Azeras might be easier to find...

reitz27

I certainly think so since there's one outside with my name on the title.... Then again, I got X-plan pricing on top of the ford incentives so my ride came out $3500 below MSRP making a fully loaded V6 at 22,400 before tax and tags. I knew I wanted a V6, leather interior and a moonroof and I couldn't touch any other car I was interested in for that price. Plus, I love the styling and interior space. I've no qualms with the Big Blue Oval either after previously owning and Explorer and a diesel F-250 which I love. Biggest plus with the fusion that isn't emphasized enough is the handling around turns. For a 'family sedan' it really out performs the Accord and Camry, but there are of course better handling and sportier cars on the market but you sacrifce value and interior space.

ctalk

For a 'family sedan' it really out performs the Accord and Camry

I wouldn't go so far to say it really out performs the Accord. I admit it does in handling, but the Accord i still quite good (especially the 6speed). Well IMO, the Accord feels more sporty than both the Sonata and Camry. To me it offers the best balance between sport and comfort. I'm not sure about the 2007 Camry though, I still need to test drive one. I heard the handling is huge improvement.

zzzoom6

just curious if anyone out there drove both the fusion and the mazda 6... since they are pretty closely related i've heard that their handling is pretty similar. maybe the fusion is a bit more on the sedate side, but still very good handling compared to it's peers. Also, i geuss they stretched it a bit making it a bit longer making the back seat a bit more comfortable (although i drove last night and my friend who's more than 6 feet said he had plenty of room).

I still like the fact that I have SUV-like cargo room w/ handling that's top notch w/out looking like a soccer mom in my mazda 6 hatch.

backy

The Fusion's back seat is much roomier legwise than the Mazda6's. There isn't much more back seat leg room in the 6 than there is in my compact Elantra. I wouldn't say the Fusion is more "sedate" than the Mazda6--more damped maybe, and a more compliant ride yet still good handling. But the Fusion doesn't have a hatch in the back! I don't know why Mazda doesn't sell more of those--much more versatile than a sedan, and swoopier than the 6 sedan IMO.

explorerx4

the point i was making about content and financials is that they are subject to their definition and can be subject to a lot of 'interpretation'.

kdhspyder

the point i was making about content and financials is that they are subject to their definition and can be subject to a lot of 'interpretation'.
This is a very vague statement so I don't know exactly what you are saying but...

We went through this 'What is American..?' subject in another thread. It can be reopened again if you wish but the results will end up being the same.

Most of the money paid by US buyers for a Fusion goes into the Mexican or Japanese economy.

Most of the money paid by US buyers for a US-built Sonata, Accord or Tacoma goes into the US economy.

Which is better for us here?

explorerx4

maybe it is just me, but i interpret NA to be usa/canada/mexico due to nafta.
where was the design and engineering done on these vehicles? where is the parent corporation?
accounting is not black and white, it is really grey.
kind of like sales.

kdhspyder

I still dont get what youre saying.. Congress and the UAW are clear. Mexico is outside of NA. Nothing there benefits the UAW or the US economy. Here is a quick breakdown -(Not exact certainly):

Benefits to NA:
Design & engineering ( Deerborn ): dollar value on one vehicle? $200
US+Canadian parts exported to Mexico (30%): $3000
Transport in US: $700
Ford Sales: $500
Dealer Sales: $2500

Benefits to Japan
Japanese Transmission : $2000

Benefits to Mexico
Plant costs: $8000
Construction/Amortization,
Assembly equipment,
Maintenance,
Suppliers,
Taxes
Labor
Transport

Mexican parts: $4000

That's about $21000 in costs on a $23000 MSRP

So the Summary is:
$7000 of the cost benefits the US economy
$2000 of the cost benefits Japan's economy
$12000 of the costs benefits Mexico's economy

Ford may make a $2000 profit if it sells with no rebates. $500 Rebate reduces profit at Ford to maybe $1500.

Ford Credit gets a profit if it finances the vehicle.

Who benefits the most? Not the US.

You're original contention was (paraphrasing) 'Buy the Mexican-built Fusion because it benefits us more.' It doesn't, it benefits Mexico more.

The Hyundai product built here benefits the US economy more.

pat

We're in this particular discussion to talk about the actual cars, not the manufacturers nor how the manufacturing process does or does not benefit the world.

Okay?

zzzoom6

"I wouldn't say the Fusion is more "sedate" than the Mazda6--more damped maybe, and a more compliant ride yet still good handling."

Yeah, that's what i meant but said better! Thnx! It's interesting to me that even though the 6 is still considered a niche vehicle, many other vehicles that are more successful are based on it. I guess that's to be expected though; the 6 was designed to be the same all over the world (japan, europe, and australia get the same car except for certain options) and many other countries don't have roads as wide as here in the US (actually this rationale seems a bit lame to me...a few inches would probably not make much difference). But i do know that more size will add weight to the car which will make handling not as good. So i can see why mazda has kept the 6 pretty lean (my v-6 weighs 3400 lbs). if i remember correctly, the legacy gt was like 3700 lbs...wonder what the others weigh?

thegraduate

But i do know that more size will add weight to the car which will make handling not as good. So i can see why mazda has kept the 6 pretty lean (my v-6 weighs 3400 lbs). if i remember correctly, the legacy gt was like 3700 lbs...wonder what the others weigh?

I did some research for ya, and everyone here. The Subie isn't nearly as heavy as you thought.

Subaru Legacy GT - 3365 lbs
Honda Accord EXV6 - 3371 lbs
2007 Toyota Camry XLEV6 - 3516 lbs
VW Passat 3.6L - 3576 lbs
Nissan Altima 3.5 SL - 3396 lbs
Pontiac G6 GT - 3425 lbs
Hyundai Sonata V6 (model unspecified on website) - 3458 lbs
Mercury Milan Premier V6 - 3303 lbs

Everyone seems within a close range of 3,400 lbs...some even better than that.

fsowirles

Do we need a geography lesson? North America (the continent) includes Canada, Mexico, and the USA. Please be specific when referring to this. It benefits NA, but not USA.

Mexico is, and has been as long as I have been alive, part of North America. Hence they are part of NAFTA.

pat

Let's move on ... as I noted, the subject here is the cars themselves.

driverdm

The 6 handles better than all the rest because of not just its weight but how it is distributed and mostly its suspension set up. When you add it all together the 6 becomes a real handling performer. It also doesn't feel bad when pushed to the limits. I think Mazda has a hit on its hands if they just increase the back seat space but keep the handling and performance of the vehicle. They need to send it a little up market. The interior of the CX-7 is great, fit that into the new 6 with a little more wood and aluminum and you'll have a definite winner. The new 3.5 should be tuned to deliver 260 - 265hp. Those are all the ingredients needed. They shouldn't go after the Accord and Camry buyer. After driving a Mazda6, an owner can't go to a Camry. It just isn't the same thing. They should develop their niche. The drivers are there, they just need the vehicle to be there too.

driverdm

It quickly was taken off the prospective next vehicle list. The outside styling is a miss and the inside does not look upscale at all. It is a Camry but I thought for the prices the SE is going for, the interior would look premium.

By the way could everyone talking about the whole Mexico vs US production PLEASE SHUT UP before the forum gets shut down. I mean come on, have a little curtesy for everyone else that likes this forum.

thegraduate

It quickly was taken off the prospective next vehicle list. The outside styling is a miss and the inside does not look upscale at all. It is a Camry but I thought for the prices the SE is going for, the interior would look premium.

The outside is bad, but I disagree with you about the interior...I found it pretty nice, even in the base LE guise that I got to see at Olive Garden Friday night.

joe97

Checked out the new Camry yesterday. As bland as the outgoing model was, I'd much prefer it over the new one. The new model is a miss by Toyota's level. While the car was great overall, espeically appointments inside, I was turned off by the grill and the HVAC system (the two tone color was a big let down).

driverdm

I don't know grad. THe inside didn't look as nice as a Passat VE or a loaded Accord or even the Subaru Legacy. It was an SE model with black leather interior and aluminum accents. It just looked kind of plain. Just long expanses of black plastic on the dash. Maybe since the VW has that bar of faux aluminum that runs across the dash that separates the dash it looks nicer to me. Even the Mazda CX-7's interior looked more exciting and premium to me.

krzyss

considering that Legacy GT is AWD (is VW 4Motion?) it is quite light compared to others.

Krzys

thegraduate

Gotcha. The LE I looked at was nicer looking than an LX Accord, but maybe an SE Camry wouldn't be a nice loooking as an EX Accord. I kinda see what you mean. I bet its high quality, but it's a shame that their looks aren't so good.

rparis

Is the Camry worth the extra money over the Milan? The Camry is tried and true, yet the Milan is very stylish with an unknown reliability factor. Any thoughts? I am deciding between the two and am leaning toward the Milan

alpha01

You may want to test drive both extensively. If you're looking at normal 4 cylinder configurations, the new Camry LE is a step up from the previous generation in terms of safety, value, interior styling (to my eyes) and materials. Handling and braking are said to be improved as well, due to a wider track, revised steering, larger tires, and disc brakes at all corners.

It will not be as sporting as a Fusion, though.

~alpha

scape2

My thoughts are to drive both. Reliability is a virtual non-factor in todays cars. The new buzz word is "refinement". Reliability is up across the board for all car brands. The 80's are over. Get what you like, not what everyone else is buying...
Heck! I'm even thinking of buying out of a brand of car I have had in my garage for 25 years! Let us know what you decide...

alpha01

Reliability is not a non-factor, however, you may want to seriously consider that models within otherwise reliable makes may be surprisingly unreliable.

One might reference the Acura RL, for example, featured in this month's Car and Driver.

~alpha

thegraduate

Well put, alpha.

A Taurus may last 140,000 miles with no probs (like my neighbors '93 GL), while an Escort may cost $4,000 in repairs before hitting that same mark. Brand reliability as a whole is not as fair of a judge as is judging the individual models.

backy

Although in this case, the Escort had a better reliability record than the Taurus... and the Crown Vic the best of all Ford cars.

Other reasons overall brand reliability may not be pertinent to a particular car:

* The automaker is steadily improving in reliability, so its newer designs are more reliable than its older designs. This is particularly true with Hyundai and Kia and somewhat with the U.S. automakers.
* First year of a new design can be more troublesome, even for makes with excellent reliabilty records.

meateater

Man, somebody blow my brains out if you see me buying one of these. Much rather have any Ford or Chevy. The Koreans may be building better cars these days, but I just can't stand the cheap looks of 'em.