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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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70%-thats how older Sonata sales figure were.
V6 GLS at $15,799 would you get GL for $14,900 instead?
That is not true because the good thing about our country is that if they want an XLE then they will buy it.
Actually the 2006 estimate roughly is that 60-70% of buyers will be 4c buyers; 20-25% will be V6 buyers and 10-15% will be hybrid buyers.
This comparo by Edmunds only addressed the 20-25% of V6 buyers. My contention is that these are not cross shopping Hyundai but Acura, Lexus, Audi and BMW. Go over to the Camry 2007 forum and see the posters there. Just as you posted about the buyer who shopped the Camry and chose an LX there are several on the other forum that chose the Camry over uppper shelf vehicles.
The 60-70% of 4c buyers are die hard economy/reliability buyers like me. I would never buy a V6 from any manufacturer. Neither Toyota nor Hyundai nor BMW nor Acura. I would be solidly in the 70% as are most CamCord buyers and you can't get us out. I'd take a 4c Sonata over the V6 LX.
That means that most of Camry owners will have to stare at nice looking sedan with Big H logo from the behind.
If we are both cruising at 65 mph it doesnt matter who's in front or back. You write like a very young man where going fast and getting ahead of someone is important to your sense of pride. It doesnt matter to me whether you are in front or I am... I drive a Prius for God's sake.
There are more important things to consider than who's first in line. I will allow you to be first in line and go speeding by me as fast as you want to... then all the money you have saved on your vehicle will be burnt up on gasoline. I choose not to burn my money away but you can choose to do as you wish.
Its sportier especially when it comes to handling(more towards an accord), with a tiny sacrifice in ride, and the interior is as tight as the sonata but the materials are just a tad below in quality.
Its engine also only 200 horses is very smooth(all the techs) , maybe 1-2 mpg better in gas and since the car is a bit smaller than the sonata it helps its acceleration
For a grand and some hundreds cheaper this car could be a nice seller even in north america for a starting family.
May even steal some sonata buyers away.
Someone before stated it is becoming closer to a european market, and no one company can dominate. GM maybe even has a chance if someone with a little brain would bring Opel cars here.
I recommend you test drive a GL Sonata because those-hard economy/reliability buyers- people can get GL for $14,900 with 10 year 100,000 miles warranty. Even better, $13,900 for a GL Auto if you own Hyundai .
My own impressions are not different. The Azera is good competition to the XLE V6 Camry but the Sonata is two or three steps behind. It competes only in the middle and base lines.
Part of the problem IMO is that Hyundai is selling itself short because the veicles are close enough but price is a major concern. It says two things:
- to the cost conscious it's a big incentive to buy
- to the less cost conscious it says 'the Sonata is not good enough to compete yet so we can only offer a low price'. This is a real reason people just will never consider it. Now they will consider the Azera but not the Sonata.
I just which they'd through a manu shift in the Fusion.
- driver
Camry is a nice car, and reliable. But its styling and performance is not something you look for in this car.
This was one of the surprise conclusions of the whole Edmunds comparo. The top of the line Camry's have jumped into a new catagory. The V6 Camry is faster than a 330i. You don't have to accept it but it's real. Buyers are seeing this on a daily basis.
Camry - 2007 forum: Posts #2409, 2422, 2426, 2427, 2431, 2432, 2433, 2468. That's at least 5 different posts cross-shopping the XLE and SE V6's with TL, Lexus and the G35. In this segment the Sonata is never mentioned.
The facts are, all the cars in this class are just great. I think anyone except the "fringe 10%" that are impossible to satisfy would be happy with any of these cars. Every time I sit in my Sonata's seat, it feels just wonderful. It reminds me of the $7000 I saved over a similarly equipped Camry or Accord. It also reminds me that I have a 10 year, 100,000 mile warranty.
If people are not cost-conscious they will gladly pay the $5000+ premium for a Camcord without even taking an hour to drive a Sonata. Well, it's their money.
I am glad that nearly six years ago I took the time to drive the newly-redesigned Elantra. It was about $6000 less than the Civic EX (also all-new) that I was eyeing, but had superior driver comfort, power, ride, warranty, and as it turned out, reliability (several problems on the '01 Civics). I was wondering if a car that much less expensive than the Civic could hold its own. It did and then some.
The azera is definitely a step or two ahead of the camry in terms of luxury, but in terms of it being sportier the azera doesn't care to do that.
And i don't know about you, but these bmw, tl owners must have lost their jobs or are fed up with the gas prices but i can't really see someone moving down a class so dramatically like that from a nice sporty sedan to a sport vanilla car. (I have seen bmw owners move down to a mazda 3 or 6 and thats more believable)
The comparison's of the Top of the line Camry to BMW and TL are not being done by me alone. Edmunds did it in the comparo and I gave you more than 5 posts above where not only are people comparing them to the TL, G35, etc but are going for the Camry.
All you Hyundai fanatics seem to think I'm insulting the Sonata by repeating what Edmunds showed - that the top of the line Camry has moved out of Hyundai's class into another class. It's not an insult to Hyundai - it's just progress on the part of Toyota. That was the point of my original post way back several days ago. This Gen6 has raised the bar for the midsized segment. The reality of everday life in buying autos is that right now - today - the Sonata models don't stretch up to the entry-luxo segment.
However, the Azera ( I have not driven it ) from limited reports seems to do this for Hyundai. What this means looking at the big picture is that Hyundai has decided to cap the Sonata's market appeal to the $22-24K buyer while the Azera carries Hyundai from $25-30K. Hyundai will not have two vehicles competing against one another in the mid $20K range. Another way of looking at it is that Hyundai is saying 'This is as good as the Sonata gets, you ( the buyer ) should look at the Azera if you want more in a vehicle.'
Every manufacturer does this:
Toyota says 'The Camry ends at $30K, if you want something nicer look at the Avalon or a Lexus up to $100K'
Honda says 'The Accord ends at $30K, if you want something nicer look at the TSX or TL or RL.'
I think that they are just realizing how stupid they were with the HMFC 1,000 giveaway; with no hope of making interest money at 9%!.
I think GM, Ford, and DCX have proven that to be untrue. The biggest incentives I've ever seen came in the dead of summer last year (i.e. Employee Pricing for All). If that isn't proof that Summer incentives are just as big (nearly $10,000 off in some cases), I don't know what is.
My point, is that someone who can afford a $30,000 car is more likely to swing $3,000 extra cash (upper end shoppers) than those shopping $20,000 cars, if those that shop, actually buy all of what they can afford.
I know that doesn't make completely clear sense (rough day), but I hope y'all know what I'm trying to say.
He looked at the Accords and Camrys, having had a Camry 14 years ago, but found them a little smaller than he remembered. He hated the new smaller Caddys, only sort of liked the Chevy Impalas, and there isn't a Lexus dealer in his half of the state, so he went out one day and bought an Avalon. It's only 11 longer than his Malibu and handles well for a midsize car. (We had a '59 Bel Air when I was a kid, the Avalon is definitely midsize.)
He went ahead and splurged on the Nav/XM/12-speaker sound system, traction control, etc/etc/etc and managed to get a pretty good deal on a car with a $39.5k sticker price.
My kind of cross shopping.
beachfish
C'mon with the 'I don't care what the neighbors think of the cars I buy' stuff, but 95% of consumers care about brand names. And Kia and Hyundai aren't on the 'A' list.
You're kidding, right? The "employee pricing for all" campaign was a great deal--for the automakers. I track car prices very closely (call it a hobby I guess). I noticed that advertised bottom-line prices, after all discounts and rebates, were significantly lower before and after the "employee pricing for all" programs. Historically, over the past few years, prices seem to be lowest in March (auto show time) and late in the year. So you will have to convince me that "employee pricing for all" is proof that summer incentives are just as big as in March and at the end of the year.
No, I'm afraid I won't be doing that. In a few individual cases, you may be right, but not in Birmingham last summer. Here, where there may have been one dealership offering car X at $1,000 below invoice before the E.P.F.A., during EPFA, ALL of their cars were that cheap.
I have no intention of trying to "convince" you, I'm just giving my side of the story, which is in Birmingham, and may be very different from yours (wherever you are!
"that the top of the line Camry has moved out of Hyundai's class into another class"
In what way? that is your opinion and the price may dictate that it belongs in another class, but definitely its not. Same class as the sonata or accord(they all could compete with each other). And btw who buys a XLE? most camry buyers like the 4 banger or maybe entry 6 or one step above, but you usually don't see xle buyers , because for a bit more you could get a TL or another brand new class of car.
I'm not a hyundai fanatic as i'm being stated, actually i think the 2002 sonata is a very average car with a very weird design. The 06 sonata is a brand new story, forget the name hyundai , i have no affinity with them or any other car makers name, i just care about indidual cars(much like i would never buy an album and mostly care about the single tracks).
Just wanted to make clear Sonata, Camry, Fusion, Accord belong to one class, one could be better with each other, but can't hang out with a TL or Avalon or Saab(their updates are coming also, and after updates from everyone in the end they are different classes)
You don't have to if you don't want to that's your choice but many mnay others are doing just that. They want an entry luxury model and can get one for $30K loaded.
I know all about 60-70% being 4c buyers where most of the Camry, Accord, Sonata and Altima all live. But the landscape has changed in the top of the line models.
There is another reason for this also which you might not see clearly and it has little or nothing to do with Toyota. Lexus wants to support the new ES350 pricing level. The best way to do this is to give the bargain buyers good choices under the ES350 price. That would be the Avalon and the XLE Camry. Now if a Lexus buyer doesnt like the new ES350 pricing he can opt for a entry-level luxury vehicle still in the Corporate family. The bargain buyer is happy at $30-38K and the new ES350 is solid above that.
Just wanted to make clear Sonata, Camry, Fusion, Accord belong to one class, one could be better with each other, but can't hang out with a TL or Avalon or Saab(their updates are coming also, and after updates from everyone in the end they are different classes)
Don't be so rigid in your thinking. The marketing of vehicles is fluid and changing all the time. Again look at the forums and you will see it's changing right before your eyes.
Azera
Camry
Accord
Avalon
TL
etc.
He will never see the Sonata. The price is too low. It proves my point that in this price range the Sonata is excluded while the Accord, Camry and Azera fight for the buyer.
It's just as Toyota planned. The Camry has such a strong name and reputation that it can fight the Azera on the top end and win and fight the Sonata on the bottom end and still outsell it even with a higher price. That's very strong product placement.
kdhsyder, that Edmunds' comparison with Camry and premium sedans you mentioned? Care to post a link? I am intrigued to see it. Thanks!
For the same invoice price as a Camry LE 4 cyl. (~$18,900), the Optima EX 4 cyl. is smaller outside, bigger on the interior, better highway mileage and has Fog lights, Alloy wheels, Auto Temp Control, 6 CD changer w/cassette, Trip Computer, Auto dimming mirror, Homelink, Floor mats, Power Drivers seat, Traction Control, Stability Control and the better warranty. Some of the preceding are options on the LE and some aren't. I just tried to balance the price w/o any rebates/incentives.
Maybe the Sonata 4 cyl will get a 5 speed auto soon too.
Quote? This one?
..that the top of the line Camry has moved out of Hyundai's class into another class. It's not an insult to Hyundai - it's just progress on the part of Toyota.
More correctly I should have stated Sonata, instead of 'Hyundai', as I've done in other posts because the Azera seems very capable.
But here are a few quotes from the recent comparo:
In truth, however, after the first five minutes behind the wheel of the all-new 2007 Camry, each evaluator came away with the same impression: "This is a Camry?" Every so often, an automaker produces something so extraordinary that it manages to not only eclipse its own predecessor, but also succeeds in making the competition appear obsolete.
One might expect this scenario from, say, Mercedes-Benz, Porsche or Ferrari,
another..
Yes, it can do that, too
If this were a performance-sedan test, a luxury-sedan test or an economy-car test, the Camry still would've won. In reality, performance, luxury and economy are considerations of family sedan buyers, whether they realize it or not.
The 2007 Camry is a do-it-all automobile, the one that pleases Mom and Dad and impresses the boss without embarrassing the kids. The V6 Camry makes the dash to 60 mph in less time than a recent BMW 330i did, it was nearly as quiet as a Bentley Flying Spur at idle and wide-open throttle, and its 22 city/31 highway EPA fuel economy rating matches that of a four-cylinder Honda Civic Si. Pretty impressive stuff to say the least.
It simply has changed the rules,
I'd love to agree 100% because I think you are partially right but there is countless evidence otherwise. I'm not going for it because it is like asking someone to bring evidence to prove that wood is hard not soft. GM, Ford, Autoweek, and Edmunds had articles and press releases about it. GM stated not in the long ago past that it had basically hurt them more than it helped them and it probably wasn't the best idea because they made very very little on the vehicles. Additionally there were articles about how during Employee pricing, average incentives were the highest ever. Further supporting that the incentives were higher then than in previous months.
But to help your claim. I was an auto broker for a time and except for last year, the most cost effective time to buy a new car is during the winter, meaning from about November all the way till March.
Are you implying that a Camry SE has performance, options, and luxury to a level that can compare to a TL? I respectfully disagree. There is more to performance than 0-60. A BMW 3-Series performs though it may not be the fastest in its class. The current Accord performs comparable to a Camry (evidenced by Edmunds recent test) and the Acura TL is far above an Accord. For anyone about to say it isn't. remember that you don't build the cars and the people that built the Accord, built the Acura so it would be far better.
Grad, I personally like to take advantage of the end of year discounts and also the left over models. I like niche cars like Mazda6 and Legacy that don't sell that well but are excellent cars. They always have those laying around even after year end with larger discounts then even year end once newmodels start rolling in. Look at the Camry. There are still some 06 models out there.