Guess which model sold 50% more than March of 2005, among Camry, Accord, and Sonata? On the other hand, two other models stayed about same and sold less. It's coming and come sooner than what the other two wished.
The se is a good improvement but the steering has still a rather off center feel, and the drivers sudden input to road change is weak(sonata road feel similiar, input to change by a driver, exceptional).
Toyota and lexus have got this esc all wrong, its like whats the point of trying to make it sporty to drown that with the stability? (pretty unitellegent if you ask me)
once again like i stated numerous times, the camry does not want to perform, a good reliable car but never grin inducing.
He will never see the Sonata. The price is too low. It proves my point that in this price range the Sonata is excluded while the Accord, Camry and Azera fight for the buyer.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The price is too low? It certainly didn't deter me from buying a Sonata!
Hyundai's intention is to offer the same level of comfort and features as Camry and Accord at a price point at which C&A can not compete. Hyundai's research apparently found a significant market segment that wants Camry's and Accord's, but can't quite afford them. They also attract a few smart C&A customers that want to save $5-7,000 bucks.
Actually, I meant auto show discounts. This is not just unique to the Twin Cities, as I have seen many reports on the "Prices Paid" discussions about people using the auto show discounts in other cities.
Yep. We used the $500 auto show bonus cash from Ford when we leased our '06 Explorer back in February. The show was the week of Valentine's Day and the cash was good all month. Saved us a few bucks a month.
That was the 4c SE that C&D tested. It would be more comparable to the Sonata. If C&D wanted to spin the tires then they should have ordered an SE to test without VSC.
They tested the 'family/amateur' version with professional drivers and then complained that it's no fun for professional drivers. Hello!!!!
You're not really serious about this statement are you? Everyone knows that they just opened the new AL plant last fall and every month-over-month figure in 2006 will be larger than the numbers imported from Korea in 2005.
For sure they will fill that plant by the end of the year as they should and deliver about 180-200K units. As soon as the plant opened this figure was known.
As noted here in earlier posts the growth for all three ( 4 if you include Altima ) should come from GM and DC conquest sales who are tired of the Malibu and Sebring. I'd expect all 4 transplant models to do very well this year by winning over these types of buyers.
What's silly is that C&D tested the SE sport model 4c amateur version with VSC and then complained that the VSC was too intrusive for professional drivers ( took the fun away as you say ).
The intrusiveness of the VSC in ToyoLex models is well designed for the largest segment of buyers, amateurs. It's smart marketing because safety and accident avoidance will sell more vehicles. If someone wants to push the edge then order an SE without VSC or go for a Mazda 6.
The intrusiveness of the VSC in ToyoLex models is well designed for the largest segment of buyers, amateurs.
kdh,
Is the 07 Camry's traction control completely integrated with the VSC? If so, and it can't be turned off manually, that combo could pose some problems for drivers in snowy areas and in some low-friction situations. A vsc/tc system that can't be turned off could make it impossible to do the old back-and-forth rock out from deep snow. On a few other boards I check in on (various makes and models, some Edmunds, some not) some users untrained or unaware of TC functions, etc, have complained about the sudden loss of power when trying to do just that. One person even complained that when he tried to do an emergency u-turn from a gravel covered-berm, he was almost t-boned because he was unprepared for the sudden power loss when the traction control cut power due to the sudden wheelspin when he pushed the pedal to the floor. At the time, he was unaware that on his vehicle, he could turn off the TC and would have to make that u-turn but his dealer never fully explained the system to him. :surprise:
They tested the 'family/amateur' version with professional drivers and then complained that it's no fun for professional drivers. Hello!!!!
Hello, but C/D does this every month. In the current mag they tested some little cars with professional drivers and complained (with one exception) that they were no fun for these professional drivers. What do you suggest they do, pull some middle-aged folk off the street to do their reviews?
wrong conclusion.. softer springs suspension is the XLE/LE/TCH.
The VSC option is for the majority of buyers in the XLE, LE and possibly even the majority in the SE. But it's an option. A serious 'canyon-carver' who wants the full experience of the SE should order it without the VSC option - in a V6.
Why even offer VSC on a sport model with sport suspension? Because the reality is that while many (nearly all) the hotshots think they are cutting edge capable - they aren't. They are just amateurs. Those that buy the 4c SE are likely buying the look and the feel of pushing it on a cloverleaf exit getting off the freeway. That's the full extent of 'cutting-edge driving' for majority of US drivers.
To sell the most vehicles you design the vehicle to appeal to what the majority want/need/request.
For a road test of a sport model with some capabilities like the SE they should use a little foresight. C&D always complains about the ToyoLex VSC intrusiveness.
All the Camry's ( except the TCH ) can be ordered without VSC. They should test one without it. It's easy to do.
C/D always complains about the same things. If a car doesn't handle like it's on rails, they complain. If it doesn't have a rifle-bolt shifter, they complain. and they complain about VSC intrusiveness. Yada yada. Get over it, they aren't picking on Toyota.
Is the 07 Camry's traction control completely integrated with the VSC? If so, and it can't be turned off manually, that combo could pose some problems for drivers in snowy areas and in some low-friction situations
Good point.
There have been comments that in slick/snowy situations that Trac has hindered acceleration in all Toyota's so equipped. This Camry is the first new model to have what might be termed a 'Trac with slippage'. In these cases of slick conditions the Trac will not completely stop the vehicle but allow it to 'crawl' forward while 'slipping'. It wont allow you to stomp on it and shoot across an icy intersection that would negate the whole purpose of Trac/VSC, but as I understand it you will still be able to progress slowly without losing control.
I agree with you, backy, I thought the review, despite the absurd "Anti-sport sedan" title, was a positive one. They lauded the improved steering and suspension of the SE, and stated that they'd be happy to stamp the car as a sporting sedan, were it not for the intrusive VSC.
That said, I must also agree with others here- the article barely acknowledged that VSC is an OPTION, and it is NOT required on the 4s.
Also, on a different note- the new Camry ad campaign "When does a car become more than...." is really really well done in my opinion. Toyota has long suffered from ill attempts at ad humor, or downright boring, non-informational advertisements (for the Toyota line). This is an interesting, artistic, and well thought out campaign. Bravo!
Right; C&D tests the cars limits, and VSC keeps them from finding and probing those limits on the track and when "canyon carving". They prefer natural limits, not computer controlled ones.
It's already been explained that the mags don't get their choice of cars--they are what the automakers give them.
If they have that much control over the cars they get, then they could have matched up the equipment in the cars from the recent Camry/Accord/Sonata/Fusion comparo more closely.
"with the 4 cylinder the vsc can be purchased without"
what about the v6 where it is a std option
I know you are trying to defend this car for whatever reason, but this is a very unintellgent system and cancels itself out to what it wants to do(be sportier).
I don't want to rub salt on a wound but the sonata has a wikked esc and traction system that will interfere when it is absolutely mandatory(because i'm the driver and i control the car and not the other way around).
I'm not trying to argue with your points cuz some are valid but it should be clearly stated that the camry's performance is not a huge improvement from the past and even if they tried, they shot their own foot with this vsc/trac system.
the 2008 accord will be a good car no doubt, but it maybe infused with technologies nobody cares for nor understands that will drive up the price of this car(a good example i drive on bmw which is a waste)
It can be proven that the camry with its unitellegent vsc system that hinders its own yearnings to be sporty adds price to the rest of the camries since the cost to create this technology was quite alot(even if you don't want to get this as an option, you will pay a price for it for the technology). Why not instead be like a sonata and add a simpler esc , trac std on all cars with more air bags than any cars in their class?
So i feel this is the dilenma some of these high end car builders will be running into, trying to be too innovative, which adds to their building cost and selling price, not knowing even if the rest of the society can adapt to these new gadgets nor care to have them. Cars like the mazda 6 and sonata which has the slogan "drive your way" are putting together cars that this generation can understand in my books.
And then there are some Americans who like to use their money in other ways, rather than pumping up the profits of the corporations that have the "top brands."
You can't take those brands with you. Well, maybe if you wear a designer suit to the great beyond...
VSC is an option on all models except the hybrid. You don't have to buy it if your interest is to push the vehicle to it's limits.
In this regard a professional driver or one who is very much better than you or I likely can make the V6 SE or V6 XLE do things the Sonata or Azera could never do. The standard models will never intrude on a professional driver. The performance as a result is still far in excess of the Sonata and likely the same or better than the Azera.
Now for the amateurs we likley will never get into a situation where we need it but it's there as a security for the everyday driver.
Since Hyundai benchmarked on the previous generations then I guess that system needs some adjustments also..aye?
This VSC/Trac has been in all the Lexus' and available on the Avalons, Camry's since 1999 and standard on all SUV's since 2004. It's old news and only annoys professional drivers.
I do realized that you are looking for something, anything, to minimze the Camry but this isn't one of points to concentrate on. Hyundai has the same system.
In my opinion, a single airbag is any one unit. In the Sonata and Accord, I count 6, and in the Camry, I count 7.
Two steering wheel/dashboard housed frontal, two seat mounted thoraic side bags, two head protecting, roof pillar mounted side curtains. Camry adds knee board mounted frontal.
Yea - but then you're stuck with the Hyundai nameplate which, like it or not, has zero panache in our brand conscious society.
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Enlightened and "savvy" car buyers have already accepted the Hyundai brand. It's just a matter of time until everyone catches on. When word gets out that you can get a fine quality, fully loaded Sonata with a 10/100 warranty for $6000 less than a Camry or Accord, there will be a minor stampede.
Agreed. From another perspective, any history book would point out the Japanese automakers were in the same position as Hyundai. Remember, it takes time to build reputation, and I would say Hyundai has been doing a great job and showing vast improvements - promising future, to say the least. Hyundai's tremendous jump in sales and recongition should be noted. In the US, sales are only behind GM, Ford, DCX, Toyota, Honda, and Nissan, so if nothing else, that's saying something Hyundai should reach half a million this year.
"Enlightened and "savvy" car buyers have already accepted the Hyundai brand".
So True! I bought a Sonata LX back in 2003 after spending a few months going back and forth between it, Accord, Camry, and the Altima. My company went from company cars (Taurus) to an Allowance. I practically went nuts making a decision. I had the same stupid idea that Hyundai wasn't classy enough. It finally came down to value for me. It was a well put together vehicle, loaded, fantastic warranty, and rode well. Now I look back and realize how smart I was to buy it. Great car (kind of ugly) and no rattles like Taurus always seemed to develop inside. Now when I buy in the future Hyundai will definitely be on my short list. The new Sonata is first class and the Azera is gorgeous.
2012 Highlander Limited AWD V6 and 2015 Ford Fusion Hybrid SE
It wasnt done at the same time and place so results are suspect right away but taking the data from the recent comparo and adding the data from the Full Road Test on the Azera shows some interesting facts.
To keep the pot stirring with my Hyundai interlocateurs I chose a few key data points for the Camry XLE V6 ( $29,000 ), Sonata LX V6 ( $25,000 ) and the Azera ( $30,000 ) ( approximate MSRP's )
Transmission.... 6 AT .. 5 AT .. 5 AT 0 - 60 ( sec ).... 6.5 .. 7.4 .. 7.2 60 - 0 ( ft )...... 124 .. 121.5 .. 118 Slalom ( mph )... 60.5 .. 62.1 .. 62
Curb wgt ( lbs )... 3495 .. 3458 .. 3629
EPA FE ( C/H )... 22/31 .. 20/30 .. 19/28 Edmunds FE ( mpg ).. 20.4 .. 19.6 .. 17.7
The Hyundai siblings are excellent in braking characteristics and are both very quiet. The Camry maybe due to the 6 AT is smoother and quieter during full throttle acceleration.
The new V6 in the Camry is much more fuel efficient than the Azera and slightly more so than the smaller Sonata V6.
In slalom and straight acceleration the new Camry is a significant step ahead of both Hyundai models. In the tests both Hyundai's used 225/__/17's while the Camry used a 215/__/16.
"You're not really serious about this statement are you? Everyone knows that they just opened the new AL plant last fall and every month-over-month figure in 2006 will be larger than the numbers imported from Korea in 2005."
Whats that got to do with sales? Just funny to read it. :confuse:
I don't meant to be rude, but in slalom tests, it is very much true that A HIGHER trap speed is better. Typically, Toyota's very agressive VSC limits slalom and skidpad.
And you're right- its much better to compare info from the same test.
So, GM sells less cars because they can't make enough cars? No logic behind that. Its not matter of capacity, it the matter of quality product at good price.
You are not right or wrong, many factors but a lot have to do with demand...only if the consumers want to purchase it
As for the Sonata, HMMA builds 4,500+ (haven't checked the latest stats) a week. For simplicity, let's say 4 weeks, which is around 18K per month. Checking out the sales figure from March - 17.5K units sold - perfect!!
What that has to do with sales is that Hyundai never was a strong presence in sales while they were importing all the vehicles from Korea. It's practically and financially too difficult to be a major players with just imports. The only reason for the large surge in sales is that the Ala plant opened and now instead of 8000 imports a month they can sell 16000 domestic units a month.
In other words if they didn't have the new plant there would likely be no increase or just a small one.
Thats what my point is. I never heard Accord have shortage of production, but its losing sales. People won't buy junks even if there are more junks than good ones. People buy Sonata because they like it.
Toyota did well even before they had facility nearby. Most of GM facilities are right in here USA, still losing sales. Sorry! Your point has no valid examples. They call idea without actual proof as "Theory" If you want to make a point, you better be ready to answer questions. Most people in this forum won't be Lawyers, but not Pools either.
That would be an incorrect assumption. The spike in sales of the Sonata had nothing to do with where the car was built. The vast improvements of the Sonata have had much to do with the sales surge, more than anything, if I were to make an educated guess.
As they say, you build quality cars and consumers will come - this is one of them
please try www.toyota.com and check out if vsc is even an option you can delete on the SE and XLE for v6. Please research first.
Hyundais esc and traction is not the same as the camries as the bmw's. The is250 and 350 came a pretty deserved second cuz of this vsc problem.
And now the camry gets this burden.
Professional driving or not, during bad weather driving or higher speeds at the highway, it will hamper driving though at the same time it will try to help clear from danger.
Listen i don't need to nitpick on another pt about the camry in any instance, look at the sales number and how much the sonata has bit into the midsize market already(a nice chunk from the camcord sales too, even with the new camry).
Did you go back and read the comparo's yourself and then read my post. I said specifically ( MSRP ) which I took off of each comparo by Edmunds. I did round them up and I took off the Navigation extra to bring the XLE down to the level of the Azera ( see below ):
Edmunds on the Azera: It's a very livable setup, so long as you're not one of those people who fiends for the latest technology. If you must have a navigation system, Bluetooth or adaptive cruise control, you'll have to get the Toyota.
Again according to Edmunds test data: Sonata $24690 MSRP Camry $29000 MSRP ( adjusted ) Azera $29995 MSRP
Comments
Toyota and lexus have got this esc all wrong, its like whats the point of trying to make it sporty to drown that with the stability? (pretty unitellegent if you ask me)
once again like i stated numerous times, the camry does not want to perform, a good reliable car but never grin inducing.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
The price is too low? It certainly didn't deter me from buying a Sonata!
Hyundai's intention is to offer the same level of comfort and features as Camry and Accord at a price point at which C&A can not compete. Hyundai's research apparently found a significant market segment that wants Camry's and Accord's, but can't quite afford them. They also attract a few smart C&A customers that want to save $5-7,000 bucks.
Yep. We used the $500 auto show bonus cash from Ford when we leased our '06 Explorer back in February. The show was the week of Valentine's Day and the cash was good all month. Saved us a few bucks a month.
They tested the 'family/amateur' version with professional drivers and then complained that it's no fun for professional drivers. Hello!!!!
For sure they will fill that plant by the end of the year as they should and deliver about 180-200K units. As soon as the plant opened this figure was known.
As noted here in earlier posts the growth for all three ( 4 if you include Altima ) should come from GM and DC conquest sales who are tired of the Malibu and Sebring. I'd expect all 4 transplant models to do very well this year by winning over these types of buyers.
The intrusiveness of the VSC in ToyoLex models is well designed for the largest segment of buyers, amateurs. It's smart marketing because safety and accident avoidance will sell more vehicles. If someone wants to push the edge then order an SE without VSC or go for a Mazda 6.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
If that is true, why didn't Toyota use soft springs and mild shocks on the SE that the largest segment of buyers want?
kdh,
Is the 07 Camry's traction control completely integrated with the VSC? If so, and it can't be turned off manually, that combo could pose some problems for drivers in snowy areas and in some low-friction situations. A vsc/tc system that can't be turned off could make it impossible to do the old back-and-forth rock out from deep snow. On a few other boards I check in on (various makes and models, some Edmunds, some not) some users untrained or unaware of TC functions, etc, have complained about the sudden loss of power when trying to do just that. One person even complained that when he tried to do an emergency u-turn from a gravel covered-berm, he was almost t-boned because he was unprepared for the sudden power loss when the traction control cut power due to the sudden wheelspin when he pushed the pedal to the floor. At the time, he was unaware that on his vehicle, he could turn off the TC and would have to make that u-turn but his dealer never fully explained the system to him. :surprise:
Hello, but C/D does this every month. In the current mag they tested some little cars with professional drivers and complained (with one exception) that they were no fun for these professional drivers. What do you suggest they do, pull some middle-aged folk off the street to do their reviews?
The VSC option is for the majority of buyers in the XLE, LE and possibly even the majority in the SE. But it's an option. A serious 'canyon-carver' who wants the full experience of the SE should order it without the VSC option - in a V6.
Why even offer VSC on a sport model with sport suspension? Because the reality is that while many (nearly all) the hotshots think they are cutting edge capable - they aren't. They are just amateurs. Those that buy the 4c SE are likely buying the look and the feel of pushing it on a cloverleaf exit getting off the freeway. That's the full extent of 'cutting-edge driving' for majority of US drivers.
To sell the most vehicles you design the vehicle to appeal to what the majority want/need/request.
All the Camry's ( except the TCH ) can be ordered without VSC. They should test one without it. It's easy to do.
Good point.
There have been comments that in slick/snowy situations that Trac has hindered acceleration in all Toyota's so equipped. This Camry is the first new model to have what might be termed a 'Trac with slippage'. In these cases of slick conditions the Trac will not completely stop the vehicle but allow it to 'crawl' forward while 'slipping'. It wont allow you to stomp on it and shoot across an icy intersection that would negate the whole purpose of Trac/VSC, but as I understand it you will still be able to progress slowly without losing control.
That said, I must also agree with others here- the article barely acknowledged that VSC is an OPTION, and it is NOT required on the 4s.
Also, on a different note- the new Camry ad campaign "When does a car become more than...." is really really well done in my opinion. Toyota has long suffered from ill attempts at ad humor, or downright boring, non-informational advertisements (for the Toyota line). This is an interesting, artistic, and well thought out campaign. Bravo!
~alpha
If they have that much control over the cars they get, then they could have matched up the equipment in the cars from the recent Camry/Accord/Sonata/Fusion comparo more closely.
"with the 4 cylinder the vsc can be purchased without"
what about the v6 where it is a std option
I know you are trying to defend this car for whatever reason, but this is a very unintellgent system and cancels itself out to what it wants to do(be sportier).
I don't want to rub salt on a wound but the sonata has a wikked esc and traction system that will interfere when it is absolutely mandatory(because i'm the driver and i control the car and not the other way around).
I'm not trying to argue with your points cuz some are valid but it should be clearly stated that the camry's performance is not a huge improvement from the past and even if they tried, they shot their own foot with this vsc/trac system.
It can be proven that the camry with its unitellegent vsc system that hinders its own yearnings to be sporty adds price to the rest of the camries since the cost to create this technology was quite alot(even if you don't want to get this as an option, you will pay a price for it for the technology). Why not instead be like a sonata and add a simpler esc , trac std on all cars with more air bags than any cars in their class?
So i feel this is the dilenma some of these high end car builders will be running into, trying to be too innovative, which adds to their building cost and selling price, not knowing even if the rest of the society can adapt to these new gadgets nor care to have them. Cars like the mazda 6 and sonata which has the slogan "drive your way" are putting together cars that this generation can understand in my books.
Yea - but then you're stuck with the Hyundai nameplate which, like it or not, has zero panache in our brand conscious society.
From clothes to shoes to golf clubs to your home builder, Americans wants to be associated with the top brands. And Hyundai ain't one of em.
CamCords are approved.
You can't take those brands with you. Well, maybe if you wear a designer suit to the great beyond...
In Canada, the VSC is not standard on the LE V6, it's an upgrade ($2400)
Gee, choe, I didn't realize that the Sonata had 9 airbags! My Accord came Standard with 8 of them.
In this regard a professional driver or one who is very much better than you or I likely can make the V6 SE or V6 XLE do things the Sonata or Azera could never do. The standard models will never intrude on a professional driver. The performance as a result is still far in excess of the Sonata and likely the same or better than the Azera.
Now for the amateurs we likley will never get into a situation where we need it but it's there as a security for the everyday driver.
Since Hyundai benchmarked on the previous generations then I guess that system needs some adjustments also..aye?
This VSC/Trac has been in all the Lexus' and available on the Avalons, Camry's since 1999 and standard on all SUV's since 2004. It's old news and only annoys professional drivers.
I do realized that you are looking for something, anything, to minimze the Camry but this isn't one of points to concentrate on. Hyundai has the same system.
In my opinion, a single airbag is any one unit. In the Sonata and Accord, I count 6, and in the Camry, I count 7.
Two steering wheel/dashboard housed frontal, two seat mounted thoraic side bags, two head protecting, roof pillar mounted side curtains. Camry adds knee board mounted frontal.
~alpha
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -
Enlightened and "savvy" car buyers have already accepted the Hyundai brand. It's just a matter of time until everyone catches on. When word gets out that you can get a fine quality, fully loaded Sonata with a 10/100 warranty for $6000 less than a Camry or Accord, there will be a minor stampede.
So True! I bought a Sonata LX back in 2003 after spending a few months going back and forth between it, Accord, Camry, and the Altima. My company went from company cars (Taurus) to an Allowance. I practically went nuts making a decision. I had the same stupid idea that Hyundai wasn't classy enough. It finally came down to value for me. It was a well put together vehicle, loaded, fantastic warranty, and rode well. Now I look back and realize how smart I was to buy it. Great car (kind of ugly) and no rattles like Taurus always seemed to develop inside. Now when I buy in the future Hyundai will definitely be on my short list. The new Sonata is first class and the Azera is gorgeous.
Transmission.... 6 AT .. 5 AT .. 5 AT
0 - 60 ( sec ).... 6.5 .. 7.4 .. 7.2
60 - 0 ( ft )...... 124 .. 121.5 .. 118
Slalom ( mph )... 60.5 .. 62.1 .. 62
Curb wgt ( lbs )... 3495 .. 3458 .. 3629
EPA FE ( C/H )... 22/31 .. 20/30 .. 19/28
Edmunds FE ( mpg ).. 20.4 .. 19.6 .. 17.7
Decibels
At Idle ..... 46.5 .. 40 .. 38.9
Full throttle.. 73.9 .. 74.3 .. 75.1
Hwy cruise.... 70 .. 69 .. 67.1
The best value for each category is highlighted.
The Hyundai siblings are excellent in braking characteristics and are both very quiet. The Camry maybe due to the 6 AT is smoother and quieter during full throttle acceleration.
The new V6 in the Camry is much more fuel efficient than the Azera and slightly more so than the smaller Sonata V6.
In slalom and straight acceleration the new Camry is a significant step ahead of both Hyundai models. In the tests both Hyundai's used 225/__/17's while the Camry used a 215/__/16.
Whats that got to do with sales? Just funny to read it. :confuse:
And you're right- its much better to compare info from the same test.
~alpha
Capacity.
;-)
No logic behind that.
Its not matter of capacity, it the matter of quality product at good price.
A new plant increases capacity, thus an increase in production, ergo an increase in sales. Simple in my simple mind - doesn't make me right. ;-)
Camry XLE $31,000 -Sonata LX $19,000-Azera Limited $26,500.
Please check Ebay for the current price of Hyundais.
Two sets of eyes are better than one, especially when one is more knowledgeable.
As for the Sonata, HMMA builds 4,500+ (haven't checked the latest stats) a week. For simplicity, let's say 4 weeks, which is around 18K per month. Checking out the sales figure from March - 17.5K units sold - perfect!!
What that has to do with sales is that Hyundai never was a strong presence in sales while they were importing all the vehicles from Korea. It's practically and financially too difficult to be a major players with just imports. The only reason for the large surge in sales is that the Ala plant opened and now instead of 8000 imports a month they can sell 16000 domestic units a month.
In other words if they didn't have the new plant there would likely be no increase or just a small one.
Most of GM facilities are right in here USA, still losing sales.
Sorry! Your point has no valid examples.
They call idea without actual proof as "Theory"
If you want to make a point, you better be ready to answer questions.
Most people in this forum won't be Lawyers, but not Pools either.
As they say, you build quality cars and consumers will come - this is one of them
Hyundais esc and traction is not the same as the camries as the bmw's. The is250 and 350 came a pretty deserved second cuz of this vsc problem.
And now the camry gets this burden.
Professional driving or not, during bad weather driving or higher speeds at the highway, it will hamper driving though at the same time it will try to help clear from danger.
Listen i don't need to nitpick on another pt about the camry in any instance, look at the sales number and how much the sonata has bit into the midsize market already(a nice chunk from the camcord sales too, even with the new camry).
Did you go back and read the comparo's yourself and then read my post. I said specifically ( MSRP ) which I took off of each comparo by Edmunds. I did round them up and I took off the Navigation extra to bring the XLE down to the level of the Azera ( see below ):
Edmunds on the Azera:
It's a very livable setup, so long as you're not one of those people who fiends for the latest technology. If you must have a navigation system, Bluetooth or adaptive cruise control, you'll have to get the Toyota.
Again according to Edmunds test data:
Sonata $24690 MSRP
Camry $29000 MSRP ( adjusted )
Azera $29995 MSRP
Read first please, then type. Thank you.
Data above is not actual selling prices, and I don't care about MSRP because I won't pay MSRP.