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Midsize Sedans Comparison Thread
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It is currently doing just that, it's called Saturn.
The Camry pricing is far too high. I think the Sonata and Fusion are showing up some faults in the Camry. True indeed the Fusion and the Sonata have issues of their own (namely to some extent the Fusion's build quality and the Sonata's resale value and generic appearance) but as far as value goes, those two cars have the Camry beat hands down. And if you will look with me down the road.
The Fusion is adding safety features as standard with AWD optional and the Sonata is adding some technology i.e. satelite radio and nav. At those points the value lead will become even more pronounced. Also where Toyota was once the benchmark of quality, no longer. Hyundai is high on quality and the Fusion has done well so far. Let there be one high profile recall soon (it happens from time to time with everyone on 1st yr models, even Toyota) and the Camry may fall off its pedestal.
In the same way, every one is trying to steal sales away from the 3-Series. In that market, if you can steal sales away from Bimmer, you are considered a success even if you don't sell too much. There are so many companies gunning for Bimmer's slice of the pie in all different ways, performance (i.e. G35, IS350, CTS), feature content (i.e. TL, ES350), value (i,e. Zephyr, Aura). One mistake, one lapse in judgement and it is all over. Does anybody even know who is number 2 in that market.
The Camry is just the same. Everyone is pulling out the guns and going after it. We know who number two is which is interesting because the Accord is really number one in secret if you really look at the numbers. The Sonata and Fusion are offering a better value. The Accord and Fusion are offering better driving dynamics. You've got the Altima waiting in the corner to pounce with performance, you've got the new Sebring coming where Chyrsler has been on a roll, you've got the new Accord coming as the best of all worlds, you have a Passat to snip at the upper end with a more premium car, you've got the Zephyr there too, you've got the Mazda6 with the sports dynamic locked down along with the Legacy that adds AWD to the list. To me the Camry days are short. It doesn't have the strangle hold on the competition it used to and no bullet proof vest can with stand this type of attack.
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Well, you certainly weren't bashful about putting numbers on it earlier. Sometimes you need to think about comments that are thrown against the wall instead of parroting them to suit your personal bias. Not only was Edmunds "4-5 year behind" comment inaccurate, but it was unprofessional and had the appearance of bias... not to mention that it was non sequitur. Believe me, it does not take 4-5 years to add 2 or 3 gizmo options that are already offered on the car elsewhere. You can't equate a marketing decision with the technology of the entire brand. If you could, the Camry would be 10 years behind on suspension and 5 years behind on price.
Here's what I know for a fact: The bones of both care are fabulous, and both are state of the art among the group of mom cars in which they squarely sit. For the record, I would still rather have a V6 Camry then a V6 Sonata, but not badly enough to pay $6000 more for it. So you can't call me biased.
BTW, I took another look a the Camry LE yesterday when I stopped in to my local dealer to drive a Yaris. With the exception of a power seat, its equipment was comparable to that of a Sonata GL--but the Camry was $2000 more before you figure in the rebates. It's a nice car--lots of monotone grey in the interior, but nicely done--only a few rough flashings here and there. Plastic wheel vs. the Sonata's leather. No gas struts in the trunk. Can't quite see the reason to spend $3000 more (with rebates) on it compared to the Sonata GL. For that I could get a Sonata GLS V6 with moonroof/power seat/Homelink. Or I could put a V6, leather and faux wood interior, and alloy wheels on the Camry, pay near $30,000 and forget about buying a 3 Series.
Nah.
Not accepted. You must wear it around your neck for 4-5 years!
All kidding aside, writing is an art. If we were having a face to face conversation, you would have seen the grins and detected the good-natured ribbing. I was never once angry, and never get angry except during football games.
It's hard to apologize, and yours is appreciated. If I appeared angry, I apologize, because I certainly didn't mean to.
Sometimes we lose sight of reality in the heat of battle. The Sonata is a an excellent commuter car, not a true luxo mini-sedan. It will get you to work in economy and style. The lower end Camrys are fine choices for commuting too, but give away either meaningful features or economy that's such a necessity in a commuter car. Putting high-end options into a car this size takes it out of the commuter car realm and encroaches into the luxury car market where frankly, both cars get trounced.
If I were a road warrior that drove 50-100K miles a year, the luxo-Camry and upscale options would be very tempting to keep me company. If I were an insecure person that had a need to impress his friends (and enemies!), I would be interested in badges and gizmos over economy. Anyway, it's a fine discussion and I think we are all learning. I certainly am!
Now consider that the Camry Hybrid will have a CVT--or something akin to it. Also the 2007 Altima is expected to offer a CVT, especially in hybrid form. So, I was thinking... will the CVT make the Camry Hybrid and the Altima infinitely more advanced than all other cars in their class?
That depends. Do you consider the Ford Freestyle and Escape Hybrid infinitely more advanced than their competition? Or any other vehicle, all of which are escaping me right now, with a CVT?
Those CVT's are intriguing. I've been loosely following their progress for over 15 years. Even with their simplicity, they are bigger, heavier, less reliable, and more expensive than slushboxes. Sounds to me like the manufacturers have lots more development to do.
Many years ago, the CVT drive belt was a weird metal armored affair. Modern polymers and technology have improved immensely upon that, but apparently they still have a ways to go.
Good summary of the current situation but you have missed this key point. The Gen6 camry is like no other Camry before it.
Let the firestorm begin:
On the upper end it competes as the bargain-hunters ES350 in going after the 3-series and the TL, G35 market. In addition if you havent driven the V6 SE ( there are very few out there ) it's everything the TL is and for now far more than the Accord/Altima ( to be determined ). Just for curiosity sake I compared the Mazdaspeed 6 turbo specs to the sedate XLE V6 in the recent comparo. The 'old folks XLE' auto tranny is just a shade behind the 6's performance. That's weird. The SE when they finally come out in good numbers should be everything a midszied sports driver wants for $25-28K.
The Fusion better do something quick. It's at the bottom in everything, engine technology, performance and maybe most importantly safety ratings. It may be the Fusion and Sonata fighting over the $17-19K buyers while the Camry, Azera, new Altima, 2008 Accord all fight for the $22-25K buyers. The Sebring? Who knows. Zephyr is dead.
The Passat is weird. It shrunk and jumped in price into the mid $30k range. Now it's the Jetta in the Camry, Altima, Accord price range.
As the IL article stated Toyota ( and the Camry ) have a target painted on it. But I'd be willing to bet the Camry goes from 430K units up to 460K this year or possibly even just under 500K? Those buyers gotta be coming from somewhere. GM/DC/Ford?
Hyundai will go from abt 100K units to abt 200k as well. so that's 150,000 buyers switching camps or possibly trading early.
That's 4-5 yrs ago.
Why? Because Hyundai already has a good competitive vehicle in this upper trim level, it's the Azera. The Sonata will always remain a base and middle trim competitor against the CE/LE Camry and DX/LX Accord as well as the Fusion/Sebring/Malibu. There is no reason to push the Sonata up to be competitive with the top of the line CamCords because the Azera already does that well.
For the foreseeable future the Sonata's will continue to fight the CamCord 4c's for the buyers at $20K or less. In fact it's fighting for buyers in a price range which includes Mazda3, Civic, Corollas, Sentra's as well as base model CamCordAlt's. These buyers have the following choice: a comfortable basic midsize vehicle or a smaller sportier vehicle for about $18k. Personal preference.
It's a single or double planetary gear set that completely replaces the traditional transmission. ( now there's a benefit ) making the whole system smaller, lighter and more reliable with less parts. It's sealed and needs no maintenance ever. AFAIK none have been known to fail since Oct 2003 when first introduced.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hybrid_Synergy_Drive
also there is a short flash graphic at the end of the HSD article showing the normal ways the HSD interacts. It's also on the Toyotageorgetown.com website => vehicles =>hybrids => HSD Demo movie
http://www.toyotageorgetown.com/hybrid/ths6.asp
On the other hand, I'm concerned about gas mileage and economy. The Accord seemed right for me. I have 212,000 miles on my '95 so I feel good about reliability. Having driven a friend's Hyundai a few years ago, I can't get past the lack of quality. I realize that has changed and I'm all for competition... it helps us all in the long run. However, for right now, the Accord was right for me... and I don't mind paying a little more for what I want. I suspect I'm not alone in this.
No, I don't. But I didn't say the Camry is more advanced than the Sonata because it has one more gear. I was just posing the question, since some folks believe more gears mean a car is "a generation ahead." So that thought can be extended to an infinite number of gears makes a car infinitely more advanced, right?
Does the fact that another vehicle has it minimize the benefit?
In a way yes. I thought I put an emotorcon in there because I knew you were joking, as I was too, but I must have slipped and missed. That's what happens when you're hurrying to get the post in while your 2-month old is crying for a bottle! :sick:
You aren't...there are nearly 400,000 people who felt that way last year alone! (including me)
I suppose the same argument could be made for the superior electronic stability control technology used in the Sonata, and the fact it is standard such that the cutting edge technology is available to all Sonata owners. Wouldn't you agree?
I would, quite frankly.
Although Hyundai is building a better Sonata, one good year doesn't suddenly validate the company as being as proven as Honda.
kind of like the rav4 and highlander.
let us know if a lot of camry sales involve trading another vehicle. in not, it may be an add-on.
Although Hyundai is building a better Sonata, one good year doesn't suddenly validate the company as being as proven as Honda."
Its not one, its at least 5 years now with the last generation sonata named one of the highest reliable mid size car. Add the elantra in the mix(thats almost 6 years) and i think though its not honda nor toyota quality yet in terms of years, i don't think 5 plus years of making good cars is considered unproven.
Ford and Gm are unproven, as they make one type of good brand car but another completely full of recalls. A good year of a car batch 2002 focus ie then 2003 focuses full of recalls.
Hyundai has never had that problem for a good amount of years now. I think when hyundai reaches a couple of more years of reliabitly (7-10) i think the freaking company has proven that it is reliable, don't you think?
It's just a simple fact that people do remember past events, and past automotive failures. Hyundai is still running from its past. They HAVE to work hard to earn the trust of the people who they want as customers.
Hyundai, with this newest generation Sonata and Azera, has finally come up with a moderately attractive car. The last Gen. Sonata, as well as, XG350, seem like they were designed to look old. But I digress. Style and beauty is in the eye of the beholder....Blah, blah, blah.
If Hyundai wants to be a mover and shaker in the Auto world, they simply HAVE TO work harder than the established competition - Honda, Toyota, Nissan.
I would love to put my hard earned cash on a good ol' American car. Will I? Doubt it. Why? TRUST - I've pushed my last stalled car (Chevy Impala) out of the middle of the street in the rain...thank you very much.
Hyundai is making amazing progress. I just saw a new Sonata on the highway today. Not bad - I think I'll drive one before I decide exactly where my money will go for my next car. That says alot, since I currently drive an '01 Acura TL.
best to all
This is starting to get into the realm of having 10 blades on a razor.
Most Camry's that are sold and are going to be sold will not be the top line SE. The middle ground is where the Camry will live and die. And in that middle ground, there is a war setting up with at least seven models aimming at the Camry's throat. And your mid level Cmary isn't so far above anything else. Mid ground being your top 4cyl models and base line but nicely equipped V6s.
BMW does not have to worry about the Camry which is why LEXUS isn't worried about the Camry. Quick question if the Camry was a real competitor to a 3-Series, wouldn't that canbalize the IS???? And didn't they just throw a TON of money to make the IS a 3-Series fighter? Isn't the G35 the same as an IS basically? And isn't a TL on the same leagues? Now since we know it would make negative business sense if Toyota did its marketing homework (which it always does) for Toyota to introduce a Camry that could cannibalize IS sales in any significant amount, and that the IS, G35, 3-Series, and TL are all in the same market, wouldn't it then be logical to conclude that Toyota has proven before the introduction of the Camry that it will not compete with a 3-Series, G35, or TL in any significant numbers?
Lastly, you can look at the Mazdaspeed6 hp and say the Toyota is close. But drive a Mazda6 and you'll understand. In the turns and curves, the Mazda will make the Toyota honest. A Mazda6s could do it, further more the Speed6 which has AWD that the Toyota does not. There is more to performance than the 0-60.
HALF PRICE OF TOP CAMCORD, EVEN A GL SONATA COMES WITH ECS AND TRACTION CONTROL STANDARD.
Actual test drive is the best way to compare cars.
Now, the 2007 Camry seems to be a better car than the Accord, but the Accord is a 4 year old car.
I guess we'll have to wait until the 2007 Altima and 2008 Accord come out to determine who's the real king of this segment.
when you go to london,you will be lucky to spot a camry once a year.
and it has ugly rear unlike the previous gen.
Bob A.
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Not at all.
I think smart people buy Sonatas because of pure logic, not because they fall in love with steel and glass. When I look at my car, it looks great, but I don't love it. It fills a need for transportation and economy, not some emotional need. People that buy a name plate tend to be the emotional ones that exhibit blind, baseless loyalty.
I would only hope that an '06 car would best an '01 car, especially when it comes to ride and quietness, since these are 2 areas that are easily upgraded, my TL included.
Hyundai has had many fine cars from which to copy and learn. They, to their credit, have apparently been doing their home work. Time will tell.
I wouldn't consider someone making an emotional purchase as large as a car to be done so blind and baseless.
I would consider an Azera after test driving it because I liked it's quality, features, size, and price considering the previous three reasons.
I would consider an Accord because my 12 years of experience with Hondas have been superb. I had a used '92 accord in '95, sold it in late '97 w/ 142k and zero surprises. Purchased a '98 civic ex and at 156k, it runs flawlessly. It's also pretty entertaining to drive even though the rubber is small.
I would consider a Legacy GT after driving it because it's a blast to drive while still filling my needs in refinement.
The decision being made will rest on weighing these emotions, but it certainly isn't blind.
You'll have a hard time convincing someone like my wife's friend to deviate from an Accord when her experience is two accords, 18 years, 350k miles, and no problems. That kind of loyalty is anything but blind.
i would love have an m5 or 911 just because it would make me smile everyday not because of the badge but because it's exciting.
some people needs more than just a transportation.
there aren't a significant difference between 01 Tl and current TL either. so if sonata is indeed better than 01-03 TL(non s) that's a siginificant achievement.
i know current that TL is better than the previous gen. but it's not xg350 to azera transformation.
Also, it would be wise to keep in mind - The closer a particular brand is to "automobile perfection" the more difficult it is to improve.
I completely disagree. the '04 TL was a massive improvement both inside and out. It's a hit for good reason.
Compared to the Camry XLE V6, a similarly equipped ES350 (leather, Nav, Bluetooth) is $38,000.
So, a similarly equipped ES350 ($38,000) is $7,000 more than a fully loaded Camry XLE V6 ($31,000).
You do get a few more knickknacks in the ES, but $7,000 seems too large a gap for essentially the exact same platform, engine and transmission.
One of the strong features of Toyota's line(s) is that there are one or two vehicles ( sedans in this case ) for every buyer in every price segment from $14000 into the $50K plus range. This is where Toyota, Honda and frankly Hyundai have done an excellent job of product placement. It's also why I have been pointing out - to the chagrin of so many others here - why the XLE V6 and SE V6 are so different in this Gen Camry.
Beginning with the Yaris sedan a Toyota buyer can find a vehicle at every $1000 price differential from $14000 to $20000 then at every $2000 differential up to $30000 then at every $3000 differential up to $45000.
In just the midsized segment....
the Camry begins at
$20000 CE
$21300 LE
$22400 SE
$23600 LE V6
$25000 SE V6
$25000 XLE 4c
$26500 Hybrid
$28500 XLE V6..
===> which is where the Base Avalon starts
$27500 XL Avalon
$30000 XL Avalon SR+LA
$31000 XLE V6 Camry loaded, navi
$32000 Touring Avalon
$33500 XLS Avalon
$35000 XLS Avalon w/navi
$38000 Ltd Avalon w/navi
Which is where the ES350 begins
$38000 ES350 ....etc
This continuity in strong products allows one trim/model to support the one above it so that there is minimal price deterioration. Say the Avalon didn't exist. A Toyota/Lexus buyer in the $33000 range wouldn't overpay for a Camry but they would try to negotiate the ES350 down from $38K to $33K. The Avalon allows the ES to stay in the $38K range while the buyer can opt for a better price ( Avalon ) or a luxury experience ( ES350 ).
It's exactly the same with the RAV Gen3 vs the current Highalander as you correctly note. The 4c Highlander is dead because the RAV has taken it's place at a cheaper price with a nicer vehicle. The new Highlander due out in the Fall will begin likely at $29000 as a V6 only and prolly with just the hybrid option.
RAV = Camry up to ~ $30000
Highlander = Avalon from $29000 to $39000
Rx350 = ES350 from $40000 to $50000 plus.
Again one model supports the one above it so there is little price deterioration.